Will we stay or will we go?

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cambsno said:
Disagree there. DC is not that right wing, I would say he to the left of right (same way that Blair was to right or left). Cameron will often talk the talk but his actions on the EU have not been great. Economically aside I find him to be very central.
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Here's a thing, maybe an anti EU stance whilst considered normal for many right wing politicians isn't actually a left / right issue.
 
Phil V said:
Here's a thing, maybe an anti EU stance whilst considered normal for many right wing politicians isn't actually a left / right issue.
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I don't think it is a left /right issue. You can well be pro or anti EU whatever your political leanings. I've finally decided that overall I'm anti EU but I'm quite left politically, and I see nothing odd about that at all. It certainly doesn't mean that I've turned rabidly right wing all of a sudden.
 
Phil V said:
Political parties move about significantly - what JC faces in the parliamentary party as 'opposition' could well be a short lived thing. Again falling on stony ground, but the Labour party has gained more members since JC became leader than the Conservatives have members. There's a grass roots movement of people who feel that 'new labour' and the other centrist parties don't represent them. And here's a thought... some of them voted UKIP for that reason - because part of NF's appeal was to people disenfranchised by the other parties.
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In a general election I bet you a tenner that JC will not become our next PM. We will have a stupid neo liberal Tory party, not a true conservative movement which I feel UKIP best represents.
 
Llamaman said:
You haven't yet provided any evidence that he's lied, regardless of motivation.


Still waiting for that.


If you a newspaper's editorial, it sets out their political stall pretty clearly.


Easy to do, what with the audit report, press release, FAQs online and tens of thousands of accountants you could ask...


Which is what the Telegraph has done here.


As a matter of principle, no (as Corbyn would prove). As a matter of practise, it is - since this particular lie only seems to vomit forth from right wing politicians, journalists and commentators.
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Hey, you didn't provide the proof either but I took the time to look it up myself and post the link. If you don't belief me, then fine. Stay in that belief, otherwise you can look it up yourself it really isn't hard to find.
 
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ST4 said:
In a general election I bet you a tenner that JC will not become our next PM. We will have a stupid neo liberal Tory party, not a true conservative movement which I feel UKIP best represents.
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I heard Hitchens saying something similar. Can you elaborate on this for me. what is a true Conservative in not Neo Liberalism?
 
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A true conseravtive government wouldn't be taking in drones of refugees, would be doing much more in helping russia destroy ISIS, wouldn't be blethering on about future PM's being Muslim blah blah blah. It would be reinstating fox hunting, cutting top tier taxes and IHT etc.
 
That just sounds more like a vision you have for the party. I think you were born 100 years too late.

I would love to have more information about you and your background, so I could paint a better picture and why you have the views you have.
 
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ST4 said:
My idea of a conseravtive government wouldn't be taking in drones of refugees, would be doing much more in helping russia destroy ISIS, wouldn't be blethering on about future PM's being Muslim blah blah blah. It would be reinstating fox hunting, cutting top tier taxes and IHT etc.
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FTFY
But for clarity, how the world really is (if you remove the rose tinted glasses)...
Last time Russia was up against the precurser to ISIS your favourite Tory prime minister was a supporter of the Muslim insurgents (I'm on almost weekly quotes of 'my glorious mujahideen'). Refugees have been made welcome by governments of all persuasions, including Edward Heath with the Ugandan Asians.

Fox hunting is massively unpopular even amongst Tory voters, and they gave been cutting taxes for the richest in society, but you keep ignoring the fact.

That's without mentioning Ted Heath nationalising Rolls Royce, Mrs T whitewashing the unemployment figures by putting ex miners and steelworkers straight onto Invalidity Benefit, John Major.... everything :p

Hope that'll help you see the facts. :)
 
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Phil V said:
Fox hunting is massively unpopular even amongst Tory voters,
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I think you missed out the word "some" it was the Tories that said they would offer a referendum, on hunting with dogs if they got in.
So far they have managed to avoid that issue too.

I would also suggest that its an "us and them" issue.
And not a party issue, those politicians that live in the city area's are largely against it, those that live in the country are largely for it.
(Same for voters)
No matter what colours they fly.
 
From a south Wales working class town. Father had is own business but still only average or slightly over earnings. Boys comprehensive school. No university. I have my own business myself. Last accounts were £35k so slightly over average, however last year probably under £30k. Mid 30s with a partner, but not married with 2 young children. Home owner.
 
ST4 said:
But JC is a hard left wing lunatic and Nigel Farage just talks common sense and is not particularly right wing. Bar Stalin you cannot get any more left wing than JC.
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Was Stalin left wing? I'd put him down as a totalitarian dictator, much like Hitler. I suppose the Fuhrer was a National Socialist though...
 
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rjbell said:
From a south Wales working class town. Father had is own business but still only average or slightly over earnings. Boys comprehensive school. No university. I have my own business myself. Last accounts were £35k so slightly over average, however last year probably under £30k. Mid 30s with a partner, but not married with 2 young children. Home owner.
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Bullingdon club pig/hooker/horse shagger coke sniffing porsche driving maniac banker. Father so minted he backed my hedge fund and didn't mind I lost a billion. Was fed on caviar and smoked salmon and schooled at Eton then Winchester as I got kicked out of Eton from snorting coke. Christmases were a bit rubbish as we slummed in Saint Moritz and not on the private Island in the Caribean. I earn £30k in a few minutes and spent it in an hour making other people poor and my mates rich so we can buy more porches.

Thats what you want to hear....
 
Well I suppose factually correct and reasonable was too much to ask :(
 
Can't help lying.
 
ST4 said:
Bullingdon club pig/hooker/horse shagger coke sniffing porsche driving maniac banker. Father so minted he backed my hedge fund and didn't mind I lost a billion. Was fed on caviar and smoked salmon and schooled at Eton then Winchester as I got kicked out of Eton from snorting coke. Christmases were a bit rubbish as we slummed in Saint Moritz and not on the private Island in the Caribean. I earn £30k in a few minutes and spent it in an hour making other people poor and my mates rich so we can buy more porches.

Thats what you want to hear....
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& in real life ok degree but nothing special, OK job in the bank but nothing special. Ambition high but reality average at best. Talks a good game & maybe should write comedy instead. But political comedies about rich, Tory MPs have already been done
 
rjbell said:
From a south Wales working class town. Father had is own business but still only average or slightly over earnings. Boys comprehensive school. No university. I have my own business myself. Last accounts were £35k so slightly over average, however last year probably under £30k. Mid 30s with a partner, but not married with 2 young children. Home owner.
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You missed out the key facts, Nikon or canon, or are you one of those minority Pentax wierdos [emoji12]
 
MartynK said:
Was Stalin left wing? I'd put him down as a totalitarian dictator, much like Hitler. I suppose the Fuhrer was a National Socialist though...
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Politics is a circle with little separating extremes such as hitler and Stalin. My perception is that it tends to be those more the the right or left that are more likely to be anti with those nearer the centre to be pro.
 
Hmmm looks like the swear filter needs an up date :D



:canon:
 
Haven't read all the thread so apologies if this, or something like it, has been said before.

How the f*** do I know?

And that applies to just about everything.

Some experts say this, some experts say that. Even experts from the same field.

What chance have I, a slightly dim northern bloke in a terraced house, got?

I can only go by instinct...

...or ideology.
 
Llamaman said:
As usual, the Guardian, Independent and BBC are reasonably impartial in that they actual reported the auditors' findings.

The right-wing press, as usual, flagrantly misreported it to push their rather obvious agenda.

And this is just one example of how the EU debate will be dominated by myths, fallacies and falsehoods. I can guarantee UKIP will refer to this 'fact' in the near future.
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Both sides will tell lies and mistruths - and make it probably more of an emotional decision rather than a factual one. There was a soundbite on R2 news of Stuart Rose claiming that we will be safer as part of the EU. Don't get that at all - in what way would be be more unsafe? If anything, it could well be the opposite with us being able to set our own restrictions etc... Does Rose really think we will be invaded or something should we leave? Of course, that could have been something out of context but I do see like a typical political slanging match where facts will play a relatively small part!
 
cambsno said:
Both sides will tell lies and mistruths - and make it probably more of an emotional decision rather than a factual one. There was a soundbite on R2 news of Stuart Rose claiming that we will be safer as part of the EU. Don't get that at all - in what way would be be more unsafe? If anything, it could well be the opposite with us being able to set our own restrictions etc... Does Rose really think we will be invaded or something should we leave? Of course, that could have been something out of context but I do see like a typical political slanging match where facts will play a relatively small part!
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He was probably referring to the comments made by a police chief who said being part of the EU helped catch criminals. I haven 'to had a chance to look into those claims properly yet.
 
Llamaman said:
He was probably referring to the comments made by a police chief who said being part of the EU helped catch criminals. I haven 'to had a chance to look into those claims properly yet.
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Anybody would thing we would be getting to back to the dark ages if we leave, and end up with Baldrick for PM... dung for dinner!!!
 
cambsno said:
Both sides will tell lies and mistruths - and make it probably more of an emotional decision rather than a factual one. There was a soundbite on R2 news of Stuart Rose claiming that we will be safer as part of the EU. Don't get that at all - in what way would be be more unsafe? If anything, it could well be the opposite with us being able to set our own restrictions etc... Does Rose really think we will be invaded or something should we leave? Of course, that could have been something out of context but I do see like a typical political slanging match where facts will play a relatively small part!
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I do agree. You can almost see it coming can't you?
Lies, deception, pandering to fear, patriotism or lack of that. Anything but provable facts and reasoned sensible debate. We'll have ancient irrelevant has-been politicians dragged out to state the case... Unfortunately that's on both sides of the argument.

We shall see what happens...
 
cambsno said:
Anybody would thing we would be getting to back to the dark ages if we leave, and end up with Baldrick for PM... dung for dinner!!!
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TURNIPS! That's as good a reason as any. Baldrick's not daft you know! ;)
 
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Llamaman said:
He was probably referring to the comments made by a police chief who said being part of the EU helped catch criminals. I haven 'to had a chance to look into those claims properly yet.
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If that is the case, one doesn't have to be part of the eu to participate in exchange of information like that. We do that with plenty of other countries. On the contrary, at least we don't have to be law prioritise our resource to apprehend a Greek thief of a mountain goat who crossed our border over domestic issues. We can make that priority call ourselves.

And that latter part is the key with everything, we can govern how we want to govern and what is important to us.
 
dejongj said:
If that is the case, one doesn't have to be part of the eu to participate in exchange of information like that. We do that with plenty of other countries. On the contrary, at least we don't have to be law prioritise our resource to apprehend a Greek thief of a mountain goat who crossed our border over domestic issues. We can make that priority call ourselves.
And that latter part is the key with everything, we can govern how we want to govern and what is important to us.
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But it works the other way too of course, and we might not get the same level of cooperation from Spain with regards to apprehending the many UK criminals residing on the Costa del Sol.
 
Llamaman said:
But it works the other way too of course, and we might not get the same level of cooperation from Spain with regards to apprehending the many UK criminals residing on the Costa del Sol.
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It really isn't stopping us with countries outside the EU today, it doesn't have to be an issue.
 
cambsno said:
Anybody would thing we would be getting to back to the dark ages if we leave, and end up with Baldrick for PM... dung for dinner!!!
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This is exactly what the "stay in " campaigners were inferring on the radio earlier today, it was on the BBC, so it must be true :D
 
I think it will be an exit and myself and the wife will be voting that way.

Out of the EU we can still have all our cake and eat it, we can choose who comes and goes and offer the best candiates jobs we can tax goods that compete against home produced goods and revive our home markets.

Yep its out !
 
Mr Bump said:
Out of the EU we can still have all our cake and eat it, we can choose who comes and goes and offer the best candiates jobs ...
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??
Because generally it's possible to have your cake and eat it too o_O

And why can't we offer a job to the best candidate now? Who in the EU is stopping us? I thought even amongst euro sceptics the issue is too much movement of labour? How is restricting movement going to help us get better job candidates?

Am I being thick?
 
Phil V said:
??
Because generally it's possible to have your cake and eat it too o_O

And why can't we offer a job to the best candidate now? Who in the EU is stopping us? I thought even amongst euro sceptics the issue is too much movement of labour? How is restricting movement going to help us get better job candidates?

Am I being thick?
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Because at the moment anyone in the EU can come here and look for a job regardless of levels of qualifications or if there is a demand for their skills.

Restrict immigration to a skills shortage and who we need as Australia do or New Zealand.
 
Mr Bump said:
Because at the moment anyone in the EU can come here and look for a job regardless of levels of qualifications or if there is a demand for their skills.

Restrict immigration to a skills shortage and who we need as Australia do or New Zealand.
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That doesn't mean you can't pick the best person for the job. If anything you've got a much bigger pool to pick from. That is how they ended up with brilliant people like myself :thumbs:
 
Phil V said:
??
Because generally it's possible to have your cake and eat it too o_O

And why can't we offer a job to the best candidate now? Who in the EU is stopping us? I thought even amongst euro sceptics the issue is too much movement of labour? How is restricting movement going to help us get better job candidates?

Am I being thick?
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No you are not. On the contrary. Nothing stopping us now at all.
 
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