Will we stay or will we go?

[viv1969]

Actually, a large number of llamas are in use not as producers of wool, but as guard animals for flocks of sheep (for wool, alpaca is preferred as it's softer). Apparently your weak-ass British sheep need a bit of Peruvian muscle to protect them.

Bet most of those roughty toughty llamas were born here too.
British Llamas....yeah!!! !

 

[Nod]

So 2nd or later generation immigrants? Just need to change their name to "Long Legged and Necked Sheep" to become naturalised! (They'll still taste good though!) http://www.exoticmeats.co.uk/llama-meat.html

 

[OldCarlos]

And why is that?

?????????????

b: they'd be bringing a pension with them, ergo a net gain to the economy.

I obviously aint privy to any statistics, but I'd wage MY pension that the vast majority of the folk coming into the UK aren't bringing pensions with them.

why are you staying

I'll be staying till I retire, then hopefully spending my last few years in warmer climes.

 

[OldCarlos]

Double post.

 

[boyfalldown]

I obviously aint privy to any statistics, but I'd wage MY pension that the vast majority of the folk coming into the UK aren't bringing pensions with them.

You'd lose that bet. If a pension is paid then its the state(s) you worked in that pays it. Not the country of residence once you've retired

http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/work/retire-abroad/state-pensions-abroad/index_en.htm

I'd never really thought of the UK as a retirement destination. Do lots retire here from abroad then?

 

[OldCarlos]

That's what I was saying. folk in the many many thousands, won't be coming into the UK bringing money with them (net gain) There will be hundreds of thousands coming here who will eventually have to be paid a pension, even if/when they go back abroad. (net loss)

 

[boyfalldown]

That's what I was saying. folk in the many many thousands, won't be coming into the UK bringing money with them (net gain) There will be hundreds of thousands coming here who will eventually have to be paid a pension, even if/when they go back abroad. (net loss)

I see what you mean, but if those folks are claiming a uk pension they must have qualified for it, so been contributors to our economy at some point

 

[Ricardodaforce]

?????????????



I obviously aint privy to any statistics, but I'd wage MY pension that the vast majority of the folk coming into the UK aren't bringing pensions with them.





I'll be staying till I retire, then hopefully spending my last few years in warmer climes.

Where no doubt you'll be living amongst others like you and failing to integrate.....

 

[viv1969]

So 2nd or later generation immigrants? Just need to change their name to "Long Legged and Necked Sheep" to become naturalised! (They'll still taste good though!) http://www.exoticmeats.co.uk/llama-meat.html

No. Not immigrants at all.
They're not what their furry parents / grandparents are.

 

[OldCarlos]

I see what you mean, but if those folks are claiming a uk pension they must have qualified for it, so been contributors to our economy at some point

I asked in a thread a while ago (because I don't know the answer) what the minimum term worked is to qualify for the state pension, but whatever it is, I'd hazard a guess that a % of these are included in the figures of those Brits who are said to be living abroad ?

Another point, presumably once an immigrant is established here & maybe worked the minimum term to qualify for un employment/sick benefit, NHS treatment etc. they will accrue pension credits while not working? Which they can then take abroad once retired.

 

[OldCarlos]

Where no doubt you'll be living amongst others like you and failing to integrate.....

Like yourself in Spain?

 

[OldCarlos]

In terms of numbers living abroad (rather than flows);
View attachment 48374Source: IPPR, via BBC

Out of interest, how many of the `Brits` on the list receive free healthcare etc in those countries & are a drain on those countries resources, or do they have to pay for health care/have insurance?

 

[Phil V]

?????????????
I obviously aint privy to any statistics, but I'd wage MY pension that the vast majority of the folk coming into the UK aren't bringing pensions with them.
I'll be staying till I retire, then hopefully spending my last few years in warmer climes.

As you were saying people come here to retire (laughable) where do you think their pension will come from? Have you been reading too many stories about the UK having free money for foreigners?
If you retire abroad - you don't get a pension from Spain (unless you worked in Spain) your pension (presuming you worked in the UK all your life) comes from here, if you didn't work here - there's no pension. That's the same story whether you were born here and lived in Canada all your life or if you were born in Canada and then retire to here. To retire means you have a pension, and there's no pension if you didn't pay contributions - it doesn't matter how much you think being privy to stats might help - the rules are very simple.

And when you retire to warmer climes - you'll be taking your pension with you! this isn't complicated. It just looks silly when you believe the right wing press.

 

[Phil V]

In terms of numbers living abroad (rather than flows);
View attachment 48374Source: IPPR, via BBC

Out of interest, how many of the `Brits` on the list receive free healthcare etc in those countries & are a drain on those countries resources, or do they have to pay for health care/have insurance?

I already told you Brits abroad are a larger drain on foreign healthcare.

 

[OldCarlos]

As you were saying people come here to retire (laughable) where do you think their pension will come from? Have you been reading too many stories about the UK having free money for foreigners?
If you retire abroad - you don't get a pension from Spain (unless you worked in Spain) your pension (presuming you worked in the UK all your life) comes from here, if you didn't work here - there's no pension. That's the same story whether you were born here and lived in Canada all your life or if you were born in Canada and then retire to here. To retire means you have a pension, and there's no pension if you didn't pay contributions - it doesn't matter how much you think being privy to stats might help - the rules are very simple.

And when you retire to warmer climes - you'll be taking your pension with you! this isn't complicated. It just looks silly when you believe the right wing press.

Jeez, please read my posts. I said I don't think there will be many foreigners retiring to the UK bringing their pensions with them.
I don't believe ANY of the press. Even the left wing.

 

[OldCarlos]

I already told you Brits abroad are a larger drain on foreign healthcare.

3 million? Brits aren't all in one country, whereas I'm talking about the drain on our little island giving free healthcare to X number (even the Govt don't know the numbers)

Do Brits have to pay for health care/have insurance in other countries?

 

[Phil V]

3 million? Brits aren't all in one country, whereas I'm talking about the drain on our little island giving free healthcare to X number (even the Govt don't know the numbers)

Do Brits have to pay for health care/have insurance in other countries?

But it doesn't matter where they are: whether there's 3 million in Luxembourg or they're spread out all over, it's a nett gain to us.

And stop it with the 'little island' we're a lot bigger in country terms than that (little Englander rubbish). Particularly when it comes to government costs which are population based and GDP based.

 

[Phil V]

Jeez, please read my posts. I said I don't think there will be many foreigners retiring to the UK bringing their pensions with them.
I don't believe ANY of the press. Even the left wing.

Then I don't know what you were saying

...
I'd actually like to see figures of how many Brits work abroad compared to how many foreigners work here in the UK, BUT also the number of ex-pats living abroad to retire (to get out of the UK 5h!th0le) as opposed to the number of foreigners coming here to retire. + Don't forget the majority of ex-pats living abroad have contributed to the UK economy before moving.

Which sorta shows you have no idea how state pensions work.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Like yourself in Spain?

Nope. I did not live near or socialise with other Brits and I am fluent in Spanish. Try again.

 

[MWHCVT]

I'm not going to bother reading all the usual b*****ks as it seems from looking at the first couple of pages it's the usual suspects taking yet another opportunity to knock lumps out of each other yet again :banghead:

This is my take on it, as things stand I'm not a particular fan of excess control on how we run our country coming from the European Parliament, as I see it we would be far better off returning to a situation where it is purely a free trade area, that said I can understand where some of the controls are needed to help standardise trade...but I would still like to see some powers returned wholy to individual states..

But I believe at this stage there is not enough detail on what will be on offer to say yes or no...

Right now I'm a yes / maybe on staying in, and I fully expect to become more convinced as the details come out that staying in is the right choice but who knows

 

[OldCarlos]

Which sorta shows you have no idea how state pensions work.

Then I don't know what you were saying

I'm saying immigrants can't be a big bonus/net gain, in the long term, for the UK.

And stop it with the 'little island`......

Out of interest, what do you think would be the maximum population we could support? 100 million, 200 million?

Nope. I did not live near or socialise with other Brits and I am fluent in Spanish. Try again.

I replied with a ? to your obnoxious stereotypical post.

It was you who made presumptions about me, when you know nothing about me, by posting;

Where no doubt you'll be living amongst others like you and failing to integrate.....

 

[dejongj]

I'm saying immigrants can't be a big bonus/net gain, in the long term, for the UK.

Oi! Do you mind. From me alone there is a huge financial contribution over the last 20 years. Far in excess of what Facebook is paying.

 

[Llamaman]

I'm saying immigrants can't be a big bonus/net gain, in the long term, for the UK.

Eh? We don't pay for their education and, assuming they retire somewhere else, we avoid paying their healthcare in old age.
Most won't be here long enough to earn a UK pension either.

Add to that the fact that EU migrants are typically better educated and higher skilled than the average Brit, it is no surprise that they pay more tax and claim less benefits than the average Brit too.

Sounds like a big gain to me.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

How come people who come to live here are immigrants but if we go and live somewhere else, we're an "ex pat"?

 

[Ricardodaforce]

How come people who come to live here are immigrants but if we go and live somewhere else, we're an "ex pat"?

Good question. When I lived overseas I always considered myself as an immigrant and not an ex-pat. For me an ex-pat is a pejorative term that describes an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Add to that the fact that EU migrants are typically better educated and higher skilled than the average Brit, it is no surprise that they pay more tax and claim less benefits than the average Brit too.

Sounds like a big gain to me.

Not always. We do get some highly skilled people but the shelve stackers of Lidl and Aldi aren't this.

We also have highly skilled and educated people in Britain.

Why not believe and trust in the people of Britain.

 

[SFTPhotography]

3 million? Brits aren't all in one country, whereas I'm talking about the drain on our little island giving free healthcare to X number (even the Govt don't know the numbers)

Do Brits have to pay for health care/have insurance in other countries?

Wealthy British expats/immigrants pay a lot in income tax and property tax when they move abroad in the same way a highly skilled French architect will do when they come here.

The movement of quality people (by that I mean skilled/educated/wealthy) in moderate numbers has never been or will be a problem.

The movement enmass of unskilled poor people is a major one.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

Wealthy British expats/immigrants pay a lot in income tax and property tax when they move abroad in the same way a highly skilled French architect will do when they come here.

The movement of quality people (by that I mean skilled/educated/wealthy) in moderate numbers has never been or will be a problem.

The movement enmass of unskilled poor people is a major one.

I think a high proportion of British who live abroad, move abroad to retire, so don't contribute to income tax. Take their pensions out of our country, so we lose the income from whatever they spend it on as well and put a higher strain on foreign medical services than healthy immigrants who come over here to work do.

 

[SFTPhotography]

I think a high proportion of British who live abroad, move abroad to retire, so don't contribute to income tax. Take their pensions out of our country, so we lose the income from whatever they spend it on as well and put a higher strain on foreign medical services than healthy immigrants who come over here to work do.

How? They'll pay income tax even if retired and probably lots of it, these are wealthy people with sizable assets.

 

[eeyore]

I'm a bit meh, on the subject at the moment. So these hooves are on the fence.
I really should do some reading up on it.

Anyone want to give me a list of for/against bullet points?
(With workings out)

 

[Mr Bump]

On the subject of retirement abroad that is our plan. We are gearing to an exit in approx. 10 years. I will be almost 60 then and we will probably rent our UK house out and buy a small place in Greece.
We then will use our rental income and our pensions combined to give a comfortable living and take it from there.

We have no intention of retiring in the UK, too expensive, too cold, too crowded.......

 

[OldCarlos]

Anyone want to give me a list of for/against bullet points?
(With workings out)

Haha, I won't be holding my breath, that's for sure.

It is something we all need, but I can't see anyone actually being totally impartial to enable them to do that + there are too many variables (on both sides) to enable a definitive answer.

There is no big rush to decide yet & things may change, but as it stands now, I would vote to leave.

 

[OldCarlos]

For me an ex-pat is a pejorative term that describes an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society.

Yep, sounds like many areas of the UK does that.

(btw, the term `ex-pat` is not used solely by Brits either, it's a term used by any National living abroad, so if it has negative connotations to you, just change to `immigrant`, it means the same in reality )

 

[dejongj]

How come people who come to live here are immigrants but if we go and live somewhere else, we're an "ex pat"?

I am an immigrant and also part of the ex pat community.

 

[LASTOLITE]

I had a mate called Pat, he changed it as he thought it was too common being Irish, does this mean he is an ex-pat too?

 

[Nod]

I think a high proportion of British who live abroad, move abroad to retire, so don't contribute to income tax. Take their pensions out of our country, so we lose the income from whatever they spend it on as well and put a higher strain on foreign medical services than healthy immigrants who come over here to work do.

I know several ex-pats and only one of the couples is anything like fluent in their home's native language. Of the others, most live in ex-pat communities and view eating outside their little enclave as "going native". ALL of them come back to the UK on a regular basis for medical checks and treatment.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

I know several ex-pats and only one of the couples is anything like fluent in their home's native language. Of the others, most live in ex-pat communities and view eating outside their little enclave as "going native". ALL of them come back to the UK on a regular basis for medical checks and treatment.

That's my experience too.

 

[Llamaman]

How? They'll pay income tax even if retired and probably lots of it, these are wealthy people with sizable assets.

Most retirement destinations will have a Double Tax Treaty restricting UK taxing rights in non-residents to UK state pensions and income from UK property.
The personal allowance will mitigate the IT due on the state pension.

Even if there is no DTT, the UK will grant unilateral relief on UK source income, so you 'd only pay the UK tax in excess of the local tax on the income. You'd be a bit daft leaving your assets in the UK to attract IT at 40% if you are retiring to a low-tax regime, unless those assets are accruing returns so large that the post-tax income is still better than elsewhere.

Whilst returns on UK property are good ( if you bought before the boom) you could get good returns by releasing the capital and investing elsewhere avoiding 40% UK tax.
Plus, once you're non-resident, you are liable to CGT on gains when you sell any UK property. So another chunk taken by the Treasury.

In short, I doubt there is a great deal of UK tax being paid by expat pensioners.

 

[SFTPhotography]

In short, I doubt there is a great deal of UK tax being paid by expat pensioners.

No, but they are paying plenty of tax to the country in which they are now resident and thus contributing heavily to the local economy.

Can the same be said for young part time staff working in Lidl who've come from Poland?

 

[Ricardodaforce]

No, but they are paying plenty of tax to the country in which they are now resident and thus contributing heavily to the local economy.

Can the same be said for young part time staff working in Lidl who've come from Poland?

How do you think they are "heavily contributing" to the local economy? They'll be paying the local equivalent of VAT on purchases, but as they are in the minority they are hardly heavily contributing are they?