Will we stay or will we go?

[Phil V]

Because at the moment anyone in the EU can come here and look for a job regardless of levels of qualifications or if there is a demand for their skills.

Restrict immigration to a skills shortage and who we need as Australia do or New Zealand.

But just because 'anyone can apply' doesn't mean that we miss out on the best candidates or that we have to accept crap ones, that supposition is totally flawed.

If people are hiring the wrong staff because there's too many immigrants, then it's not the EU that's at fault, or the immigrants, it's the recruitment managers.

 

[Cobra]

That doesn't mean you can't pick the best person for the job. If anything you've got a much bigger pool to pick from.

I see where Paul is coming from on this, unless the law has changed,
a company of a certain size HAS to employ a percentage ( I can't remember what) of disabled and or foreign nationals.
So maybe the best person for the job didn't get it, if they were low on the afore mentioned.

That is how they ended up with brilliant people like myself

Must resist must resist

 

[bindex]

Must resist must resist

Why now? Nothing has ever stopped you before

 

[Nod]

I see where Paul is coming from on this, unless the law has changed,
a company of a certain size HAS to employ a percentage ( I can't remember what) of disabled and or foreign nationals.
So maybe the best person for the job didn't get it, if they were low on the afore mentioned.


Must resist must resist

"Resistance is useless!"

 

[Jim_Tod]

There was a soundbite on R2 news of Stuart Rose claiming that we will be safer as part of the EU. Don't get that at all - in what way would be be more unsafe? If anything, it could well be the opposite with us being able to set our own restrictions etc... Does Rose really think we will be invaded or something should we leave?

Perhaps we shouldnt overlook the part played by the EU and its predecessors in maintaining peace in Europe since the second world war- only 70 years but overall probably the most peaceful 70 years Europe has had. Some of that down to cold war but even taking that out of the equation it looks like the EU has provided stability.

UK leaving the EU might well be the start of the end of the EU and more us and them viewpoints which drive insecurity at a national level. Once conflict breaks out somewhere in Europe the we're all dragged in to take sides

 

[dejongj]

I see where Paul is coming from on this, unless the law has changed,
a company of a certain size HAS to employ a percentage ( I can't remember what) of disabled and or foreign nationals.
So maybe the best person for the job didn't get it, if they were low on the afore mentioned.


Must resist must resist

First I hear about it being a law or a must. Saying that I do often get karted out to meet MPs etc. I thought it was due to me being good at what I do, but perhaps I'm just the token foreigner

 

[Cobra]

First I hear about it being a law or a must

It certainly was a few years ago, equal opportunities or something, there was a big push to make sure the status quo was achieved, early 80's perhaps?
I can't quite remember TBH

but perhaps I'm just the token foreigner

That'll be it

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

It certainly was a few years ago, equal opportunities or something, there was a big push to make sure the status quo was achieved, early 80's perhaps?
I can't quite remember TBH


That'll be it

There are no positive discrimination laws in this country, that's just another myth.

 

[Cobra]

There are no positive discrimination laws in this country, that's just another myth.

One company I worked for in that era was certainly encouraged to take on so called disadvantaged workers.
Maybe it wasn't law as such ( I thought it was) but it was certainly very strongly "suggested" at the very least.

 

[OldCarlos]

There are no positive discrimination laws in this country, that's just another myth.

`Positive Action` though.

 

[Phil V]

I see where Paul is coming from on this, unless the law has changed,
a company of a certain size HAS to employ a percentage ( I can't remember what) of disabled and or foreign nationals.
So maybe the best person for the job didn't get it, if they were low on the afore mentioned.


Must resist must resist

There's an expectation companies will employ disabled people, failure could open them up to a challenge under the DDA, likewise gender equality, but there's nothing that would require anyone to employ 'foreigners'.

We need to ask why large companies feel it's worthwhile to go abroad to recruit workers en-masse? What's wrong with the people of this country that makes that happen? And if it's not our fault, what do the employers think they'll get from foreigners they can't get from us?

I've heard at least one employer revel in the fact that foreign staff will put up with (illegal) abuse that British workers won't. Of course that brings about the question of unions and workers rights... But they're not popular round these parts.

 

[dejongj]

It certainly was a few years ago, equal opportunities or something, there was a big push to make sure the status quo was achieved, early 80's perhaps?
I can't quite remember TBH


That'll be it

There are no positive discrimination laws in this country, that's just another myth.

Go easy at Cobra. He just referred to the eighties as a few years ago

Bless his memory doesn't seem to be what it once was. Perhaps it was company policy and the company involved was the imho excellent remploy.

 

[Cobra]

We need to ask why large companies feel it's worthwhile to go abroad to recruit workers en-masse? What's wrong with the people of this country that makes that happen? And if it's not our fault, what do the employers think they'll get from foreigners they can't get from us?

I don't know if you caught it, but there was a bit of a stink recently, when the government said that they would cut the budget for employing nurses from abroad.
The "stink" was that would lead to a short fall of nursing staff this winter (?!)
So, are people here not willing to train as nurses? or is there a better class of nurse(s) abroad?

Bless his memory doesn't seem to be what it once was.

Who are you again?

Perhaps it was company policy and the company involved was the imho excellent remploy.

Funnily enough it was a government run place of work ..
.. I think I have just answered my own question

 

[cambsno]

Perhaps we shouldnt overlook the part played by the EU and its predecessors in maintaining peace in Europe since the second world war- only 70 years but overall probably the most peaceful 70 years Europe has had. Some of that down to cold war but even taking that out of the equation it looks like the EU has provided stability.

UK leaving the EU might well be the start of the end of the EU and more us and them viewpoints which drive insecurity at a national level. Once conflict breaks out somewhere in Europe the we're all dragged in to take sides

Hmmm, probably has more to do with other factors... as we saw with Blair, go to war and people now say its illegal! Plus, after WW2 everyone just joined forces against USSR via NATO, and you had USA having interests here. The EU has not prevented conflict in Ukraine or in Yugoslavia where there was also genocide in addition to the war. Is there a flavour for war these days? We are all living in luxury compared to years gone by and have too much to lose by war. The only war we will have is one involving IS types or see smaller wars in smaller states.

If the EU crumbles as a result of us leaving, it proves that it is not a solid structure in the first place.

 

[Phil V]

I don't know if you caught it, but there was a bit of a stink recently, when the government said that they would cut the budget for employing nurses from abroad.
The "stink" was that would lead to a short fall of nursing staff this winter (?!)
So, are people here not willing to train as nurses? or is there a better class of nurse(s) abroad?

...

Ever since the birth of the NHS we have sponsored training abroad for doctors and nurses to join the NHS, I think they believed that by casting the net wider we could recruit better (statistically makes sense).

However recruiting NHS employees and teachers is becoming a problem now, because some idiots decided that giving them a bad press was a great way of controlling them and reducing costs. The chickens are coming home to roost now though, those jobs are looking like a seriously crappy option for intelligent people.

It's been going on a while but really ramped up under Gove and Jeremy Hunt, a pair of complete tools who would never be employed to manage anything. Leadership requires bringing your staff with you, those arseholes have done nothing 'right' to raise standards, we can only surmise they wrecked it on purpose.

 

[Llamaman]

The EU has not prevented conflict in Ukraine or in Yugoslavia

Neither of whom were members at the time of their conflicts...

 

[cambsno]

Neither of whom were members at the time of their conflicts...

Fair point, but your earlier point proves nothing. A bit like saying lets put Clegg as PM as we have never been in a war when a Nick has been in power (waits for someone to disprove that)!!

 

[big soft moose]

And why can't we offer a job to the best candidate now? Who in the EU is stopping us? I thought even amongst euro sceptics the issue is too much movement of labour? How is restricting movement going to help us get better job candidates?

i presume hes talking about the EU equality laws ... but they've never stopped anyone from hiring the best candidate , just from not hiring the best candidate because of their skin colour/gender/ethnicity orientation etc

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I will vote to stay in.
In most aspects membership is in our interest.
One thing membership ensures, is that our government of the day can't do any thing really extreme... which UKIP and many Tories may likely wish to do, if left totally uncontrolled.

 

[OldCarlos]

really extreme

Like what?
Cutbacks in policing, or public services, armed forces ....?

 

[Mr Bump]

To be honest I wasn't talking about any equality laws or disability quotas.
Just simply saying if we don't need plumbers then no more plumbers can apply for work visas.
If we need Doctors and nurses then fine visas available.
Dentists, engineers etc

Do we need more tyre fitters?

This should stabalise the labour market and stop certain areas being over subscribed.

Also it will mean people can come here only if they can support themselves not look to the state for instant support.
Also if after 12 months work visa they can apply for more and if the state feels they have a positive value they can stay.

 

[big soft moose]

To be honest I wasn't talking about any equality laws or disability quotas.
.

so if you werent talking about those elements how does the EU stop A UK employer from appointing the best person for the job ?

 

[Mr Bump]

so if you werent talking about those elements how does the EU stop A UK employer from appointing the best person for the job ?

I think your question is to wide reaching and my opinions do not include all ramifications and are not intended to, I simply look towards models like Australia and new Zealand.

 

[dejongj]

I think your question is to wide reaching and my opinions do not include all ramifications and are not intended to, I simply look towards models like Australia and new Zealand.

Which ofcourse is the model we already have? The UK does operate a points based system as well for professions. Further more, you can't just claim benefits when you arrive anyway so it is a rather confused and very remote from your original point regarding the inability to hire the best person for the job.

 

[OldCarlos]

Further more, you can't just claim benefits when you arrive anyway.............

Collect a bit of scrap metal, get paid & you are working. You can then apply for certain benefits.

Come into the country to study & get the support of the interNational Health service.

There are many loopholes which cost the country/tax payers a fortune.

 

[dejongj]

Collect a bit of scrap metal, get paid & you are working. You can then apply for certain benefits.

Come into the country to study & get the support of the interNational Health service.

There are many loopholes which cost the country/tax payers a fortune.

Edge cases and peanuts compared to the costs involved to manage those situations out of here. Overall migrants are in much higher employment and nett contributors.

 

[viv1969]

"Resistance is futile!"

 

[Llamaman]

Fair point, but your earlier point proves nothing. A bit like saying lets put Clegg as PM as we have never been in a war when a Nick has been in power (waits for someone to disprove that)!!

My previous point was about the American steel industry. Not sure how you've roped war and poor old Cleggy into that.

 

[Phil V]

Collect a bit of scrap metal, get paid & you are working. You can then apply for certain benefits.
.

Simply not true
Don't believe everything you read.

.Come into the country to study & get the support of the interNational Health service.
.

Whilst there's some truth in that and I'd personally like to see the NHS gateway tightened, Brits abroad cost other European health care providers more than the foreigners cost the NHS.
It's a fact, you'll not see oft repeated though. The simply incredulous fact is that we all know an ex-pat, we consider them British and we have no problem with them ghettoising half the costa del sol, but allowing 'foreigners' the same freedoms seems wrong.

There are many loopholes which cost the country/tax payers a fortune.

As above, many are misreported and it's not a one way street.

Unfortunately that doesn't create snappy headlines.

 

[OldCarlos]

Not saying it is a one way street, but a bit like everyone spouting on about the net gain to the UK from foreign workers etc & taken as gospel by many & repeated ad nauseum.
Funny when certain people say it isn't so, they are labelled racist etc, but when A senior govt minister says it isn't necessarily so, there isn't the same hoo ha. Is she totally wrong?

I'd actually like to see figures of how many Brits work abroad compared to how many foreigners work here in the UK, BUT also the number of ex-pats living abroad to retire (to get out of the UK 5h!th0le) as opposed to the number of foreigners coming here to retire. + Don't forget the majority of ex-pats living abroad have contributed to the UK economy before moving.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Collect a bit of scrap metal, get paid & you are working. You can then apply for certain benefits.

Come into the country to study & get the support of the interNational Health service.

There are many loopholes which cost the country/tax payers a fortune.

You mention, "a fortune". How big a number is that - do you have any detail, or is this just a gut instinct influenced by dubious reports?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I don't know if you caught it, but there was a bit of a stink recently, when the government said that they would cut the budget for employing nurses from abroad.
The "stink" was that would lead to a short fall of nursing staff this winter (?!)
So, are people here not willing to train as nurses? or is there a better class of nurse(s) abroad?


Who are you again?

Funnily enough it was a government run place of work ..
.. I think I have just answered my own question

New nurses from here must be trained from scratch.
This entails both a degree course and on the job training. This takes both a belief that it is worth the effort by a candidate, and a considerable lead time.
Qualified nurses are available from abroad ready to go.

The same applies to Doctors who take even longer to through put.

But both might prefer to work in the USA or Australia for higher salaries and better prospects.

Nurses who return from other work usually require refresher training before they are employable. so are an unknown quantity.

 

[Cobra]

New nurses from here must be trained from scratch.

Actually the news item I heard wasn't totally clear if it was fully trained / part trained nurses and / or untrained health workers TBH.

They also say UK trained Nurses are the best in the world, so you can't blame them either, for buggering off abroad for a better salary can you?
The whole thing is a total nightmare TBH,

 

[Llamaman]

Not saying it is a one way street, but a bit like everyone spouting on about the net gain to the UK from foreign workers etc & taken as gospel by many & repeated ad nauseum.
Funny when certain people say it isn't so, they are labelled racist etc, but when A senior govt minister says it isn't necessarily so, there isn't the same hoo ha. Is she totally wrong?

I'd actually like to see figures of how many Brits work abroad compared to how many foreigners work here in the UK, BUT also the number of ex-pats living abroad to retire (to get out of the UK 5h!th0le) as opposed to the number of foreigners coming here to retire. + Don't forget the majority of ex-pats living abroad have contributed to the UK economy before moving.

Net migration to/from the EU was largely flat from 1991 to 2003, before a wave in 2003-2007, curtailed by the financial crisis (when many Poles went back home), and a second influx starting around 2012 as UK economy outperformed European average (and HNW individuals leaving France's high tax regime).

Source: University of Oxford

In terms of numbers living abroad (rather than flows);
Source: IPPR, via BBC

This doesn't distinguish between economically active and retirees, but the Telegraph gives the total number of expat pensioners as 560,000. I suspect quite a large proportion of those will be in the EU, namely Spain and France, and the rest mostly in US, Canada and Australia.
The European Commission estimates that non-active UK nationals in Spain is about 125,000. Of those, 106,000 are claiming a UK pension, according to HM Treasury.

In terms of EU nationals in the UK who are non-active, the EC puts it at 800,000, but this will include the unemployed and students, not just retirees.

There isn't enough data to come to a definitive conclusion. Check out https://fullfact.org/factchecks/who...s_britons_in_spain_or_eu_nationals_here-29244 for a discussion of the data.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

You mention, "a fortune". How big a number is that - do you have any detail, or is this just a gut instinct influenced by dubious reports?

Doesn't matter. If it says it's so on the Britain First Facebook page it must be true.

 

[OldCarlos]

"a fortune". How big a number is that

Whatever the figure is, it's too much!

Doesn't matter. If it says it's so on the Britain First Facebook page it must be true.

I don't do bacefook, so have no idea.

 

[big soft moose]

There isn't enough data to come to a definitive conclusion. .

its all these llamas coming here from peru and taking jobs from honest british sheep that are the real problem

 

[Phil V]

Not saying it is a one way street, but a bit like everyone spouting on about the net gain to the UK from foreign workers etc & taken as gospel by many & repeated ad nauseum.
Funny when certain people say it isn't so, they are labelled racist etc, but when A senior govt minister says it isn't necessarily so, there isn't the same hoo ha. Is she totally wrong?

I'd actually like to see figures of how many Brits work abroad compared to how many foreigners work here in the UK, BUT also the number of ex-pats living abroad to retire (to get out of the UK 5h!th0le) as opposed to the number of foreigners coming here to retire. + Don't forget the majority of ex-pats living abroad have contributed to the UK economy before moving.

TBF when it comes to retiree's, who'd come to Britain? Bearing in mind the climate (in your view it's a s***hole - why are you staying) and that pensions are pensions - so you can't just emigrate to somewhere and get your pension from there, you take it with you. So that means if there were lots of people retiring to here a: they'd be mad to - its freezing and crap and b: they'd be bringing a pension with them, ergo a net gain to the economy.
Anyway - as you can see from the above people don't retire to here - they come here to work, in fact if they come here from abroad to work, they're highly likely to take their pension off to somewhere warmer (as do many UK nationals).

The speech the minister made at their party conference was a disgrace - I said so at the time, she used rhetoric rather than statistics, as she knows the numbers don't support her story. But that's one in a long line from this and the last government. IDS has stated things that the DWP have been duty bound to refute, likewise the farce that Hunt is overseeing at the NHS and the scandalous way that Gove treated education. You can't dismantle government whilst reporting that it's doing a great job, you can only do it if you can run it down first (both financially and setting opinion).

This shower of politicians have forgotten that they're actually running the country - they spent so long pushing out bad news stories to tell us we lived in a s***hole they don't have a strategy to reverse it. So now they're overseeing 'Broken Britain' whilst pursuing policies to break it further with no sense of irony (it makes 'the Thick of It' look like a good news view of government)

 

[Llamaman]

its all these llamas coming here from peru and taking jobs from honest british sheep that are the real problem

Actually, a large number of llamas are in use not as producers of wool, but as guard animals for flocks of sheep (for wool, alpaca is preferred as it's softer). Apparently your weak-ass British sheep need a bit of Peruvian muscle to protect them.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Whatever the figure is, it's too much!

And why is that?