Will we stay or will we go?

[dejongj]

The accounts, including the signed audit report, are linked from the EU's own website.

The nugget of truth in this story is that the EU's auditors have found that a small but 'material' amount of the budget cannot be reliably traced. This doesn't necessarily mean misappropriated - usually just poor record keeping. As a result, the accounts ARE signed but with a minor caveat (called a 'qualified opinion' in accounting speak).

The point at which the funds go 'missing' is at state level - i.e. The EU knows where the money is going and for what purpose, but individual members states fail to reconcile it exactly. This includes the UK.

And the big point, always overlooked by EU critics, is that the EU's auditors define materiality 4 times more strictly than the UK. Yup, those 'money wasters' in Brussels demand a higher level of fiscal accountability than our own beloved government. Go figure.

Conclusion:
If anyone ever tells you that the EU's accounts aren't audited, they're lying.
If they tell you the accounts aren't signed, they're lying.
And if they tell you the money would be better accounted for in the UK, they're lying.

And that's why that Torygraph article is a steaming pile of horses***, written by someone who either knows nothing about accountancy, or is deliberately lying to you.

Thanks for that, that is very useful.

Having now found the relevant documents; linked here for others

http://ec.europa.eu/budget/library/...discharge/1-council_rec_commission_fin_en.pdf

It is clear that the way the press has reported this, and not just the Telegraph, is very very different than what is actually recorded in the minutes. The issue that the Netherlands, Sweden and United Kingdom specifically requested to be minted is that for 20 years in a row the target of less than 2% errors has not been met. In 2013 it was just 4.7% which I think is not bad at all.

Shame that nobody in the press is making a clear point about this as well. Those reporters should be sacked in my opinion.

 

[boyfalldown]

I struggle to see a way that leaving would be better for the UK. It would be very useful to see how many jobs would be lost & gained, changes to export, subsidies etc and how that would effect us all. Rather then the oft misreported nonsense we see at the mo also don't believe that the EU would let us keep a status similar to that enjoyed by say Switzerland are misguided.

I'd agree though, our membership of the EU does need to be renegotiated and some of it has become unwieldy

 

[border_all]

^^This^^

In any case, whether we go to war or not should be based on facts at hand (and, as has been said, many of which the general public won't/can't know) and not on how popular it is with the populace.

Well as this thread is in/out for EU this will be my last comment re war and Government des ions

So for me are the Government acting in our best interest in the case of Iraq I really do not think so am I in the majority I have no idea but and its a big BUT I really then and now think the war was illegal. Tony Bliar and the western powers invaded another sovereign nation it seems diplomacy went out the door.

I used Iraq as an example of trust with politicians as a comparison with what we "renegotiate" with the European Commission can we trust what we are told for me the answer is a resounding no. Why do prime ministers do this again for me to have power on the world stage, power is good if used with compassion and reasoning.

We have a situation soon when this government will be looking at asking parliament for authority bomb Syria if that goes wrong ie Russia it's the people who fight not the politicians

Most on here will have had family who fought inWW2 the object was freedom prior too my dad dying he never felt the the EU having power over the UK was really in the spirit of what many died for.

Why on earth we would vote for any government on the basis of the manifesto specifically to give away our rights to rule ourselves will never sit with me. Who ever holds the number ten job must be held to account and if significantly are going to change our rules and laws we should be consulted.

So regardless of if that's right or wrong it's my view

 

[Llamaman]

So totally impartial and independent then!!!

Err, that doesn't mean the audit report isn't impartial. All PLCs have their independently audited accounts on their website too.

 

[Llamaman]

Shame that nobody in the press is making a clear point about this as well. Those reporters should be sacked in my opinion.

As usual, the Guardian, Independent and BBC are reasonably impartial in that they actual reported the auditors' findings.

The right-wing press, as usual, flagrantly misreported it to push their rather obvious agenda.

And this is just one example of how the EU debate will be dominated by myths, fallacies and falsehoods. I can guarantee UKIP will refer to this 'fact' in the near future.

 

[dejongj]

As usual, the Guardian, Independent and BBC are reasonably impartial in that they actual reported the auditors' findings.

The right-wing press, as usual, flagrantly misreported it to push their rather obvious agenda.

And this is just one example of how the EU debate will be dominated by myths, fallacies and falsehoods. I can guarantee UKIP will refer to this 'fact' in the near future.

Now now, what about John Humphrys? A rather flagship presenter from that leftwing bastion called the BBC. Arguably much more influential to people of all persuasion. You don't so well educating, and definitely changing my illinformed opinion, to then break it all down with this kind of left/right rethoric.

I agree, the facts will be distorted and good intentions will be thwarted. It will be nearly impossible for anyone to be informed when listening to what they say. One has to keep an open mind, and read the facts for themselves.

So I salute you sir to bring this mythbuster to the table. Definitely not a bad accounting situation at all I would say.

 

[Phil V]

Now now, what about John Humphrys? A rather flagship presenter from that leftwing bastion called the BBC. Arguably much more influential to people of all persuasion. You don't so well educating, and definitely changing my illinformed opinion, to then break it all down with this kind of left/right rethoric.

I agree, the facts will be distorted and good intentions will be thwarted. It will be nearly impossible for anyone to be informed when listening to what they say. One has to keep an open mind, and read the facts for themselves.

So I salute you sir to bring this mythbuster to the table. Definitely not a bad accounting situation at all I would say.

You know there's statistics to prove the BBC actually has a slight right if centre bias?

Despite the fact that legally broadcast media in this country are supposed to be impartial, unlike the press and broadcast media in other countries.

 

[rjbell]

^^ I agree the BBC being left leaning is nonsense.

 

[Llamaman]

^^ I agree the BBC being left leaning is nonsense.

People see the BBC as left or right depending on what they wish to see.
Apart from anti-Israeli bias, I've generally seen the BBC - as a whole - as rather impartial. Individual reporters will obviously vary.

 

[rjbell]

People see the BBC as left or right depending on what they wish to see.
Apart from anti-Israeli bias, I've generally seen the BBC - as a whole - as rather impartial. Individual reporters will obviously vary.

I don't know i've heard plenty of JC hard left comments yet nothing when describing the tories or DC, and the Panarama JC hatchet job. Newsnights been very anti JC also.

 

[Llamaman]

Now now, what about John Humphrys? A rather flagship presenter from that leftwing bastion called the BBC. Arguably much more influential to people of all persuasion. You don't so well educating, and definitely changing my illinformed opinion, to then break it all down with this kind of left/right rethoric.

I agree, the facts will be distorted and good intentions will be thwarted. It will be nearly impossible for anyone to be informed when listening to what they say. One has to keep an open mind, and read the facts for themselves.

So I salute you sir to bring this mythbuster to the table. Definitely not a bad accounting situation at all I would say.

Is there evidence of Humphrys telling lies to promote a left-wing agenda?
This isn't a left vs right issue - the BBC and Indy are impartial/centrist and the Guardian is very much of the New Labour flavour of the left.
However, the same papers that consistently promote an anti-EU agenda (Telegraph and the News International stable) also happen to be right wing, or at least pro-Tory.

 

[Llamaman]

I don't know i've heard plenty of JC hard left comments yet nothing when describing the tories or DC, and the Panarama JC hatchet job. Newsnights been very anti JC also.

The anti-JC agenda is as much a hobby of the centre left as the right...

 

[Phil V]

I don't know i've heard plenty of JC hard left comments yet nothing when describing the tories or DC, and the Panarama JC hatchet job. Newsnights been very anti JC also.

This^
You only have to read the Jeremy Corbyn thread to see the result of how a constant stream of this affects public opinion.
It'd be nice for balance if DC could be rebranded 'pig-molester David Cameron' or N F 'right wing nut-job Nigel Farage'
Only just realised what Nige's initials are... How funny is that.

 

[dejongj]

The anti-JC agenda is as much a hobby of the centre left as the right...

Not so sure about an agenda. The man is putting on the show himself for all to see. It's an unwanted gift that just keeps on coming back.

 

[dejongj]

Is there evidence of Humphrys telling lies to promote a left-wing agenda?

Interesting way to formulate a response. Who knows about agendas that would be speculation and hearsay. Rather odd you bring that into the mix where you have been highlighting the factually incorrect points being broadcast.

The only thing I can say for certain and the evidence is there for all to hear and see, is that he applied the same wrong interpretation. And I'm sure there are many others but I can't be bothered to look for them.

So oddly you are bringing in exactly that kind of bias into this discussion that you argued against. Most peculiar as I think you raised and brought to us one of the most important myth busters. Let's not spoil that

 

[Llamaman]

Asking for evidence is bias now?
It's 'bias' like that that puts me in a position to bust myths rather than parrot them.

You appear to be reading my post through a cloud of confirmation bias based upon a false notion that I'm left wing.

 

[SFTPhotography]

This^
You only have to read the Jeremy Corbyn thread to see the result of how a constant stream of this affects public opinion.
It'd be nice for balance if DC could be rebranded 'pig-molester David Cameron' or N F 'right wing nut-job Nigel Farage'
Only just realised what Nige's initials are... How funny is that.

But JC is a hard left wing lunatic and Nigel Farage just talks common sense and is not particularly right wing. Bar Stalin you cannot get any more left wing than JC.

I also really doubt DC molested a pig.

 

[Phil V]

But JC is a hard left wing lunatic and Nigel Farage just talks common sense and is not particularly right wing. Bar Stalin you cannot get any more left wing than JC.

I also really doubt DC molested a pig.

That is the response you expected isn't it?

No, DC never 'molested a pig', but what he actually did won't get past the swear filter

 

[dejongj]

Asking for evidence is bias now?
It's 'bias' like that that puts me in a position to bust myths rather than parrot them.

You appear to be reading my post through a cloud of confirmation bias based upon a false notion that I'm left wing.

No you are misunderstanding, you asked for evidence regarding his motivation of going down this kind of reporting. How is one ever support to provide concrete evidence for that? The only evidence that can be provided is whether he mis-reported the facts or not, not what his motivation was for doing that.

And again you misunderstand, you are bringing in this left/right rethoric I didn't do that. I don't see that as relevant to the Europe debate at all. But unfortunately you are doing that without evidence of the motives, and naturally that is impossible. It could be that they are just bad are reading and understanding the facts, wouldn't be the first time for politicians. Only one party I would say with some certainty that they would on purpose present the figures in an anti-Europe kind of manner. But again their politics have nothing to do with left/right.

This is pro-or-anti Europe reporting, but first and foremost and the only factually correct conclusion just very sloppy and bad reporting of the facts. Where it becomes serious in my opinion if they are on purpose changing the facts and putting a false belief out there. Non of this is lef/right politics though.

 

[Nod]

That is the response you expected isn't it?

No, DC never 'molested a pig', but what he actually did won't get past the swear filter

Hasn't the plonker/porker interface story been denied by the originator anyway? From what I've heard, the tale was perpetuated by someone who tried to buy a cabinet post (but got a lesser one than he felt he'd paid for) (an illegal act I believe) and was published by a paper edited by a man who feels slighted because he didn't get a gong. Last week's "news" anyway.

 

[SFTPhotography]

That is the response you expected isn't it?

No, DC never 'molested a pig', but what he actually did won't get past the swear filter

I expected no less but if you think DC humped a pig then I have to give the same response back....

 

[Phil V]

I expected no less but if you think DC humped a pig then I have to give the same response back....

As I said previously, if the story was untrue, wouldn't DC have sued? As I said earlier, it's very common for sitting MPs to sue for libel even when they know they're in the wrong , if they believe that there's not enough evidence to hold up the allegation (Archer, Hamilton, Huhne).

The fact that the 'establishment' decided that the best way for the story to go away was to ignore it, rather than prove it to be untrue speaks volumes. If it was so obviously untrue we'd all know about it.

And as I've told you before with many factual examples, this is the most right wing government this country has ever had, as for Farage - there's no answer, the bloke is a complete clown, followed only by the politically ignorant. I appreciate you see this differently and maybe take it personally, but every person that I know who thinks UKIP are anything other than a joke is a complete idiot with many other 'questionable' views and behaviours (racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia). I can only speak from my personal experience.

 

[Phil V]

Hasn't the plonker/porker interface story been denied by the originator anyway? From what I've heard, the tale was perpetuated by someone who tried to buy a cabinet post (but got a lesser one than he felt he'd paid for) (an illegal act I believe) and was published by a paper edited by a man who feels slighted because he didn't get a gong. Last week's "news" anyway.

Which is exactly my point - fairly serious allegations which are at the core of government treated as 'last weeks news', whilst the same press constantly refer to the leader of the opposition with a 'extreme left' handle and the previous one as someone who looked awkward whilst eating a sandwich. That's the way media bias works, it's not what they report it's what they create as 'the story' that then becomes 'the truth' as it's part of the common lexicon.

It's ridiculous when the story of the PM putting his todger in the mouth of a dead pig is annotated with 'but don't forget Ed Milliband looked a right idiot when he ate a bacon butty'

 

[SFTPhotography]

Which is exactly my point - fairly serious allegations which are at the core of government treated as 'last weeks news', whilst the same press constantly refer to the leader of the opposition with a 'extreme left' handle and the previous one as someone who looked awkward whilst eating a sandwich. That's the way media bias works, it's not what they report it's what they create as 'the story' that then becomes 'the truth' as it's part of the common lexicon.

It's ridiculous when the story of the PM putting his todger in the mouth of a dead pig is annotated with 'but don't forget Ed Milliband looked a right idiot when he ate a bacon butty'

But JC is very very left wing. Unelectably so. His views on fiscal policy, taxation, nuclear arms are very very left wing.

 

[Phil V]

But JC is very very left wing. Unelectably so. His views on fiscal policy, taxation, nuclear arms are very very left wing.

You need to understand the difference between 'an opinion' and simple facts. I don't deny that JC is left wing, whether he's 'electable' isn't factually proven.

I'm not a fan, but at least I'm reading the facts as facts.

And JC is no more 'left wing' than DC is 'right wing', but the media bias is clearly working a treat isn't it.

 

[viv1969]

As I said previously, if the story was untrue, wouldn't DC have sued? As I said earlier, it's very common for sitting MPs to sue for libel even when they know they're in the wrong , if they believe that there's not enough evidence to hold up the allegation (Archer, Hamilton, Huhne).

The fact that the 'establishment' decided that the best way for the story to go away was to ignore it, rather than prove it to be untrue speaks volumes. If it was so obviously untrue we'd all know about it.

And as I've told you before with many factual examples, this is the most right wing government this country has ever had, as for Farage - there's no answer, the bloke is a complete clown, followed only by the politically ignorant. I appreciate you see this differently and maybe take it personally, but every person that I know who thinks UKIP are anything other than a joke is a complete idiot with many other 'questionable' views and behaviours (racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia). I can only speak from my personal experience.

The fact?
What facts?
You know no more than anyone else, so you're not really speaking of facts Phil; merely more supposition.

 

[SFTPhotography]

You need to understand the difference between 'an opinion' and simple facts. I don't deny that JC is left wing, whether he's 'electable' isn't factually proven.

I'm not a fan, but at least I'm reading the facts as facts.

And JC is no more 'left wing' than DC is 'right wing', but the media bias is clearly working a treat isn't it.

I would rank DC as quite left wing and liberal. Fiscally less so but in terms of social policy and immigration here is pretty red. IMHO. Farage and Paul Golding are much more right wing, particularly in terms of immigration. That Theresa May IMHO is a clown but I suspect you think the same, but for very different reasons.

I suspect given the last GE you'll find JC won't go far at all. It will be a right laugh watching them fail.

 

[rjbell]

But JC is very very left wing. Unelectably so. His views on fiscal policy, taxation, nuclear arms are very very left wing.

JC is not very very left wing at all, just left wing. As Phil mentioned no lefter than Cameron is right, and certainly not as left as you are right.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

Now now, what about John Humphrys? A rather flagship presenter from that leftwing bastion called the BBC. Arguably much more influential to people of all persuasion. You don't so well educating, and definitely changing my illinformed opinion, to then break it all down with this kind of left/right rethoric.

I agree, the facts will be distorted and good intentions will be thwarted. It will be nearly impossible for anyone to be informed when listening to what they say. One has to keep an open mind, and read the facts for themselves.

So I salute you sir to bring this mythbuster to the table. Definitely not a bad accounting situation at all I would say.

I am surprised that you see the BBC as left wing:-

• Chris Patten, Chairman of BBC Trust, was a former chair of the Conservative Party and Tory cabinet minister.
• Andrew Neil, presenter of Daily and Sunday Politics and This Week is known for his right-wing views
• Robbie Gibb, editor of the above shows is former chief of staff to Conservative politician Francis Maude and pre one-time deputy chair of the Federation of Conservative Students, before it was wound up by Norman Tebbit for being too right wing (!)
• Nick Robinson - former national chairman of the Young Conservatives.
• Robinson’s senior political producer, Thea Rogers, was poached by George Osborne at the end of 2012.
• Craig Oliver left the BBC to join Cameron as his director of communications following Andy Coulson’s resignation
• Guto Harri left the BBC to work as Tory Mayor Boris Johnson’s communications chief.
• Kamal Ahmed replaced Peston as BBC Business editor coming from right-wing Sunday Telegraph

As you can see, a lot of the people at the core are definitely on the right.

A lot of the right wing press are anti-BBC and wish to attack it in any manner possible, even attacking shows such as Sherlock for having a left wing bias. It also almost ignores some serious news issues for fear of being seen as left wing, such as the radical overhaul of the NHS in the last parliament that was never proposed in the manifesto. When the legislation did get through the BBC reporting of it was questioned - interesting article on the subject here.

The fact is the BBC gets criticised from all quarters, and is unfortunately in a no-win situation no matter what it does leaving me very fearful for its future.

 

[Deleted member 49549]

The fact?
What facts?
You know no more than anyone else, so you're not really speaking of facts Phil; merely more supposition.

The only fact that Phil V referred to was the ignoring of the allegations by the Cameron's office, and that is a clearly observable fact, certainly not supposition.

 

[Phil V]

The fact?
What facts?
You know no more than anyone else, so you're not really speaking of facts Phil; merely more supposition.

The 'facts' I was referring to were regarding DC's policies I've pointed out before to Steve. Of course I can only surmise regarding him putting his willy in a dead pig's mouth. We'll never 'know' because he's not stupid enough to take it to court. Where his former colleagues did believe they were influential enough to buy justice. DC is smart enough to know he can influence public opinion without using the courts (and as you can see - that's worked for him)

 

[Llamaman]

No you are misunderstanding, you asked for evidence regarding his motivation of going down this kind of reporting.

You haven't yet provided any evidence that he's lied, regardless of motivation.

The only evidence that can be provided is whether he mis-reported the facts or not,

Still waiting for that.

But unfortunately you are doing that without evidence of the motives, and naturally that is impossible.

If you a newspaper's editorial, it sets out their political stall pretty clearly.

It could be that they are just bad are reading and understanding the facts,

Easy to do, what with the audit report, press release, FAQs online and tens of thousands of accountants you could ask...

Where it becomes serious in my opinion if they are on purpose changing the facts and putting a false belief out there.

Which is what the Telegraph has done here.

Non of this is lef/right politics though.

As a matter of principle, no (as Corbyn would prove). As a matter of practise, it is - since this particular lie only seems to vomit forth from right wing politicians, journalists and commentators.

 

[rjbell]

I am surprised that you see the BBC as left wing:-

• Chris Patten, Chairman of BBC Trust, was a former chair of the Conservative Party and Tory cabinet minister.
• Andrew Neil, presenter of Daily and Sunday Politics and This Week is known for his right-wing views
• Robbie Gibb, editor of the above shows is former chief of staff to Conservative politician Francis Maude and pre one-time deputy chair of the Federation of Conservative Students, before it was wound up by Norman Tebbit for being too right wing (!)
• Nick Robinson - former national chairman of the Young Conservatives.
• Robinson’s senior political producer, Thea Rogers, was poached by George Osborne at the end of 2012.
• Craig Oliver left the BBC to join Cameron as his director of communications following Andy Coulson’s resignation
• Guto Harri left the BBC to work as Tory Mayor Boris Johnson’s communications chief.
• Kamal Ahmed replaced Peston as BBC Business editor coming from right-wing Sunday Telegraph

As you can see, a lot of the people at the core are definitely on the right.

A lot of the right wing press are anti-BBC and wish to attack it in any manner possible, even attacking shows such as Sherlock for having a left wing bias. It also almost ignores some serious news issues for fear of being seen as left wing, such as the radical overhaul of the NHS in the last parliament that was never proposed in the manifesto. When the legislation did get through the BBC reporting of it was questioned - interesting article on the subject here.

The fact is the BBC gets criticised from all quarters, and is unfortunately in a no-win situation no matter what it does leaving me very fearful for its future.

Not to mention Bullingdon Club Question time presenter David Dimbleby. I wonder which way he sways?

 

[Phil V]

I would rank DC as quite left wing and liberal. Fiscally less so but in terms of social policy and immigration here is pretty red. IMHO. Farage and Paul Golding are much more right wing, particularly in terms of immigration. That Theresa May IMHO is a clown but I suspect you think the same, but for very different reasons.

I suspect given the last GE you'll find JC won't go far at all. It will be a right laugh watching them fail.

Political parties move about significantly - what JC faces in the parliamentary party as 'opposition' could well be a short lived thing. Again falling on stony ground, but the Labour party has gained more members since JC became leader than the Conservatives have members. There's a grass roots movement of people who feel that 'new labour' and the other centrist parties don't represent them. And here's a thought... some of them voted UKIP for that reason - because part of NF's appeal was to people disenfranchised by the other parties.

 

[Matt]

anyway back on topic..

i would vote to stay in as at work we buy and sell with europe all the time, and its much less hassle then importing from Norway or the US

 

[Phil V]

Not to mention Bullingdon Club Question time presenter David Dimbleby. I wonder which way he sways?

And Paxo who in his retirement interview from Newsnight described himself as a 'One Nation Tory' and had considered standing as Conservative candidate for London Mayor.

Indeed the BBC is a den of lefties

But the right wing media who clearly have nothing to gain from a dismantling of the BBC keep propagating the myth, and it sticks in the public consciousness.

 

[Phil V]

I would rank DC as quite left wing and liberal. Fiscally less so but in terms of social policy and immigration here is pretty red. IMHO. Farage and Paul Golding are much more right wing, particularly in terms of immigration. That Theresa May IMHO is a clown but I suspect you think the same, but for very different reasons.

What you see as 'left wing and liberal' is just the removing of bigotry from the legal system. Of course if you see that bigotry as 'normal' I can understand your confusion. Whilst he might 'accept' that things like same sex marriage are an obvious conclusion, his behaviour in public towards female opposition members still smacks of old school values.

His stance on immigration is based on the facts, if it was indeed bad for the country he'd be pushing a different agenda tomorrow. He has to nod to the idiots in the cheap seats, but he knows exactly what he's doing, and it's not driven from a left wing agenda. He's not a Europhile because he's naive or a lefty, he's using evidence regarding the economy that he fully understands, I'll happily accuse him of many things - naivety isn't one of them.

 

[viv1969]

anyway back on topic..

i would vote to stay in as at work we buy and sell with europe all the time, and its much less hassle then importing from Norway or the US

In my work, we specialise in "hassle" destinations / origins.
We arrange practially no exports to EU countries now as doing so is so simple.
Our bread and butter is Iraq, Syria, Iran, Afghanistan etc.

I can certainly see why a company would favour remaining in the Union for ease of trade movement reasons.

 

[cambsno]

As I said previously, if the story was untrue, wouldn't DC have sued? As I said earlier, it's very common for sitting MPs to sue for libel even when they know they're in the wrong , if they believe that there's not enough evidence to hold up the allegation (Archer, Hamilton, Huhne).

The fact that the 'establishment' decided that the best way for the story to go away was to ignore it, rather than prove it to be untrue speaks volumes. If it was so obviously untrue we'd all know about it.

And as I've told you before with many factual examples, this is the most right wing government this country has ever had, as for Farage - there's no answer, the bloke is a complete clown, followed only by the politically ignorant. I appreciate you see this differently and maybe take it personally, but every person that I know who thinks UKIP are anything other than a joke is a complete idiot with many other 'questionable' views and behaviours (racism, xenophobia, misogyny, homophobia). I can only speak from my personal experience.

Disagree there. DC is not that right wing, I would say he to the left of right (same way that Blair was to right or left). Cameron will often talk the talk but his actions on the EU have not been great. Economically aside I find him to be very central.

 

[cambsno]

anyway back on topic..

i would vote to stay in as at work we buy and sell with europe all the time, and its much less hassle then importing from Norway or the US

We import and export to everyone, and many of the eu economies are not great so we will not get much from some of them.

Don't forget, other countries need to trade with us too. How would it hurt the likes of France and germany if there were hassles or restrictions on bmw, Mercedes, Renault etc... Or the fact that other euro countries would lose a valuable marketplace.