Tube strike. Too far this time?

Byker28i

Byker28i

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What's your thoughts on this.

Currently the tube drivers get paid just under £50k for a 36 hour week with 43 days holiday.

The union leader on the news yesterday said it wasn't about the money, but also said it would bring in £350m of benefits to London and why shouldn't their members be part of that.

This is about providing a night service over the weekend, with all staff being offered a 2% pay rise, £500 bonus for the implementation of the service. There's 137 additional drivers jobs being recruited and whilst these are being recruited and trained there may be some requirement for current drivers to work night shifts during the transition for which they will also get a £200 a night bonus. After the transition drivers will get a choice if they want to work night shifts or not.

Unions want a32 hour 4 day week, an staff reinstated at some of the closed ticket offices..
 
It looks like they have an incredible generous package already, secure employment. Personally I wouldn't now like to work a night shift, but have done for some considerable time in the past.

I guess it depends on the proposed shift pattern, if the existing drivers get a choice and get to occasionally fill in, as is being suggested or if it's a regular pattern.

At the moment it rather looks like the union are in a strong position, can cause real chaos and are unwilling to engage in negotiations? Unions flexing their political muscle?
 
Several of them came on LBC last night and I just couldn't work out what their issue is with this.

Nearly everyone seems to be in some kind of childish position and now call it just another Boris vanity project and that it isn't the right thing for London. Some are blaming the lack of agreement at Boris for not engaging in the discussions himself. So what, he pays people to deal with it and put proposals on the table.

Then they complain that they didn't have enough time to evaluate the proposals. Which they had before the weekend, and why no suspend the strike whilst continuing the talks, instead of suspending the talks and continuing with the strikes.

And the arrogance of them when they were put in discussion with other callers on the radio. They suggest it is only for drunks and party goers. Than they suggest people should just get a taxi or a night bus.

Oh an that they job is such high pressure with the responsibility of 1500 passengers. Flipping heck, in all my years in London I've only ever seen a tube driver sit in his cabin. What interaction is there with the passengers and what pressures?

I wish we accelerate the driverless trains programme and sack the lot of them. And increase the pay for the bus drivers please who to me seem to have some skill, and have the real pressure of keeping to their time, dealing with the public and other road users.

Luckily I can work from home today.
 
I thought they tried suggesting fully automated and that was also the cause of a previous strike.
 
dejongj said:
Several of them came on LBC last night and I just couldn't work out what their issue is with this.

Nearly everyone seems to be in some kind of childish position and now call it just another Boris vanity project and that it isn't the right thing for London. Some are blaming the lack of agreement at Boris for not engaging in the discussions himself. So what, he pays people to deal with it and put proposals on the table.

Then they complain that they didn't have enough time to evaluate the proposals. Which they had before the weekend, and why no suspend the strike whilst continuing the talks, instead of suspending the talks and continuing with the strikes.

And the arrogance of them when they were put in discussion with other callers on the radio. They suggest it is only for drunks and party goers. Than they suggest people should just get a taxi or a night bus.
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London Underground says the RMT union keeps changing its negotiating team and has refused to talk at all in the last few days.
Finn Brennan was the man on the BBC news yesterday - he flies out on holiday today...
 
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I didn't hear they change their team, but yes I did hear as well that they suspended talks leading up to the strike opposed to suspending the strike and engage in it.

These guy just have an alternative motive, it is so clear as they don't even know why they are striking.
 
I wonder how many Underground train drivers use the night bus service, probably not many as they can afford the fares of the night taxi's, they don't seen to care about all the night workers who don't get circa 50k and cant afford the night taxi fares.
 
Byker28i said:
Unions want a32 hour 4 day week, an staff reinstated at some of the closed ticket offices..
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That's the most unreasonable demand ever! 12% working hour reduction for the same pay? Also, ticket offices are an outdated idea.

They are fairly compensated for what they do, and will be doing. So get on with it!

Any more strikes and they'll loose whatever public support they have left.
 
I have some sympathy for them, in the sense that the conditions of their employment might radically change without much consultation from TFL. I think they're also still bitter about the closure of the ticket offices, which reneged on a clear promise not to do so from Boris at his last election (and people want this prat as PM? Why?).

That said, the first strike went ahead with an offer on the table because "they hadn't had time to put it to their members". Personally, I'd have postponed a strike, pending a membership vote, but hey they do love a strike, so fair enough.
Yet a month later, they're striking again, and STILL no offer has been put before the membership for a vote.

I don't think the union's leadership are serving their members best interests here - they have denied them a chance to vote on the proposals, instead forcing them out on a strike which will cost them money and cause disruption to all of London - including the tube driver's own friends and families. Public support for them is dwindling.

I suspect the unions' negotiating tactics are driven less by their member's best interests and more by Mike Cash trying to prove he's tough enough to fill Bob Crow's shoes.
 
Mike cash who also flies out on holiday today?

Says a lot about their desire to resolve this
 
Llamaman said:
Public support for them is dwindling.
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Public support for them in London, including amongst lifelong Labour voters of my accquaintance that want to see Corbyn as Labour leader, seems to be nil. The opinion is generally that they are a bunch of spoiled children who don't realise how good they've got it and are abusing the fact that the capital's transport infrastructure depends on them.

Roll on driverless trains. I'm glad I don't live there.
 
I got a taxi home last night (tube was awful so I bailed) and even the cabbie was having a go at them. When cab drivers (who can be a militant lot themselves) are saying you've gone too far... maybe you've gone too far.
 
Llamaman said:
I have some sympathy for them, in the sense that the conditions of their employment might radically change without much consultation from TFL. I think they're also still bitter about the closure of the ticket offices, which reneged on a clear promise not to do so from Boris at his last election (and people want this prat as PM? Why?).

That said, the first strike went ahead with an offer on the table because "they hadn't had time to put it to their members". Personally, I'd have postponed a strike, pending a membership vote, but hey they do love a strike, so fair enough.
Yet a month later, they're striking again, and STILL no offer has been put before the membership for a vote.

I don't think the union's leadership are serving their members best interests here - they have denied them a chance to vote on the proposals, instead forcing them out on a strike which will cost them money and cause disruption to all of London - including the tube driver's own friends and families. Public support for them is dwindling.

I suspect the unions' negotiating tactics are driven less by their member's best interests and more by Mike Cash trying to prove he's tough enough to fill Bob Crow's shoes.
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They are still acting like children, their terms and conditions already contained the required clauses for night time trains, it was merely never scheduled in previously. Oh and they are suggesting it is a 'democracy' and they should have been consulted as to whether this is a good idea. Hmm really, since when do the train drivers interact with the public and know whether this is a good idea or not. Train drivers should drive the trains and not strain too much into new business development, or if they want to do that then change their job.
 
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They have definitely gone too far on this one, the unions have collectably become too militant which is the point I stop supporting what can be a very good idea (unions that is).

I'm really struggling to have sympathy for tube drivers for are on almost £50k for a 36hr week when there are some many people in London struggling on much lower wages for probably higher hours worked.

The idea that London in the 21st century doesn't have some form of overnight tubes or trains is ridiculous (and I am aware it's because of the 2 track tube system and that some limited national rail runs all night) so the tube drivers have got to wake up to the idea it will happen one or another.
 
And they need to give up on reopening ticket offices. They were mostly pointless and underused - staff on the platforms and on-foot in the ticket areas are far more useful.

Boris should never have promised not to close them, but then again if you expect BoJo to behave with integrity you're a fool.
 
Yv said:
So can anyone outline exactly what they are striking about, seeing as I keep seeing "It's not about the money" plastered everywhere without any of them actually specifying what it IS about. :rolleyes:
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Changes to rotas caused by night tube.
Closure of ticket offices.
 
Look for a lump of coal, or perhaps ice.
 
Llamaman said:
Changes to rotas caused by night tube.
Closure of ticket offices.
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From what I have read above and also elsewhere, no-one will be forced to cover the weekend night shift and £200 to cover whilst new drivers are trained seems more than fair.
As for people wanting a train drivers job, I looked into this yesterday as my son is looking for a new job. It seems that unless you already work for TFL, you stand no chance at all as for quite a few years now all new drivers jobs are advertised internally within TFL, on average training 200 new drivers per year, from something like 1700 internal applicants every time.
 
Llamaman said:
And they need to give up on reopening ticket offices. They were mostly pointless and underused - staff on the platforms and on-foot in the ticket areas are far more useful.
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Who needs a ticket office when you have Apple Pay or Contactless Bankcards. It is so much easier that way.
 
FWIW, I know a guy who is a tube driver.
He gave up a badly paid office job to join LT as a cleaner many years ago and said at the time that he would end up as a driver, and he did - nothing to do with merit apparently, just based on length of service.
A few years ago I saw him on the news, he was being hailed as a hero for slamming the brakes on when a safety system failed and he nearly ran into another train that shouldn't have been there!

It seems to me, based on what this guy has told me, that driving a train is really nothing more than a reward for long service, there is very little actual responsibility, all that they really need to do is to stay awake in case something that won't happen actually does.
 
nilagin said:
From what I have read above and also elsewhere, no-one will be forced to cover the weekend night shift and £200 to cover whilst new drivers are trained seems more than fair.
As for people wanting a train drivers job, I looked into this yesterday as my son is looking for a new job. It seems that unless you already work for TFL, you stand no chance at all as for quite a few years now all new drivers jobs are advertised internally within TFL, on average training 200 new drivers per year, from something like 1700 internal applicants every time.
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Yup a job for the boys, it is all about who you know to get onto the gravy train. Get it? :)
 
nilagin said:
That's why you need a hover board when you need to get off in a hurry.
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Sounds like you have the makings for a good film there :D

As for the question, I rarely use tubes. but no sympathy for them here.
 
Garry Edwards said:
It seems to me, based on what this guy has told me, that driving a train is really nothing more than a reward for long service
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Here's the problem. The drivers feel entitled because they've dedicated a lot of years to the service.

No! This isn't a retirement plan. It should be like any other job, doing less hours = less pay.


If any of you photographers were to say "I'd like to work less hours", you will get less pay, this is expected and striking is never considered as an option. Why are they any different?
 
I'm sitting at home today, not earning.

Thanks Mr/M's/Mrs Tube driver...
 
wuyanxu said:
Why are they any different
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Because photographers cant hold the capitol to ransom ;)

I'm sure there is at least one tube driver on here. I'd be interested to hear their point of view though
 
I do have sympathy for the drivers. Being told to work nights for a 2% rise ain't a lot. (long term offer ignoring the hand over period)
My line of work carries about 30% premium for nights.

As for £50k for the job, does it seem high? What does it compare to in other similar roles...
A train driver for other companies get between 20 to 60k
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

. Add in the cockny wide boy London premium of about £20k which seems to be added to jobs in London (just been looking at one for our company ) and to be fair it is about normal for the role.
 
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Byker28i said:
What's your thoughts on this.

Unions want a32 hour 4 day week, an staff reinstated at some of the closed ticket offices..
Click to expand...

wuyanxu said:
That's the most unreasonable demand ever! 12% working hour reduction for the same pay? .
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Its just part of the talks between 2 parties.
When we have pay talks we always start with a high ball offer, the company with a low ball offer. nether side thinks they will get it, we end up with a nice happy medium... sadly its not worked in the tube example tho.
 
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