Tube strike. Too far this time?

eeyore said:
I do have sympathy for the drivers. Being told to work nights for a 2% rise ain't a lot. (long term offer ignoring the hand over period)
My line of work carries about 30% premium for nights.

As for £50k for the job, does it seem high? What does it compare to in other similar roles...
A train driver for other companies get between 20 to 60k
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

. Add in the cockny wide boy London premium of about £20k which seems to be added to jobs in London (just been looking at one for our company ) and to be fair it is about normal for the role.
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They aren't being told to work nights, it's optional.
London Bus driver, £25k-£31k. I'd say being a bus driver was a bit more involved than being a train driver, driving a train isn't exactly highly skilled is it? All you have to do is let the train follow the rails and act accordingly to the signals.
 
eeyore said:
I do have sympathy for the drivers. Being told to work nights for a 2% rise ain't a lot. (long term offer ignoring the hand over period)
My line of work carries about 30% premium for nights.

As for £50k for the job, does it seem high? What does it compare to in other similar roles...
A train driver for other companies get between 20 to 60k
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/TrainDriver.aspx

. Add in the cockny wide boy London premium of about £20k which seems to be added to jobs in London (just been looking at one for our company ) and to be fair it is about normal for the role.
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But they say it is not about the money :confused: Actually we all know it is all about the money ;)
 
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eeyore said:
Not according to one report, also one saying that there rota can changed at 24hour notice Nights and weekends... I'd be fairly anoyed if that were the case.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-33798637


Our shops guys had change in conditions to there work... they got up to 12% pay increse...
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From the horses mouth ;)

Nick Brown, the managing director of London Underground, blamed unions’ intransigence for the deadlock. He said staff would eventually have the option of whether or not to work weekend night tube shifts, but most were already working on rotas that covered operations over 24 hours, seven days a week, so the night tube would mean a subtle change to rosters.

Staff have been offered an average 2% salary increase this year, and a 1% or RPI inflation rise, whichever is higher, for 2016 and 2017, as well as extra payments to drivers working night tube shifts and additional bonus payments to all affected staff once the weekend service starts operating.
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So yes, initially during the transition phase they have little choice but to show some willingness to get the great company up to a new chapter in its history and customer service. Then once they've got more staff they can opt out. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
 
From what I read they were even objecting to possibly ever being called in for occasional cover. Every job has to sometimes cover (says me sat in a datacentre covering for a sick colleague, having been on call last night...)

But it's not about the money, but Finn Brennan yesterday on BBC news said that the opening overnight would generate £350 million for the capital and it was only fair the drivers got some of that...
This is the same lot that got bonuses for doing their ordinary day job during the olympics. When implemented, everyone (not just drivers) will get a £500 (after tax) payment.
 
I'm not clear on the reasons for striking, but I do think there needs to be a differentiation between what they earn and being asked to work unsocial hours.

You can argue that the salary is too high - it feels that way but it is a role with some responsibility and whilst it is perceived as being simple I would assume there is an up for that level.

Anyway, regardless of salary, work home balance is an important thing. Whilst you can compensate someone financially for working late hours as we do in my company, it does not compensate for being away from your partners or children, or not being able to do this things out of work that you enjoy. This is often overlooked, or viewed in the the 'well I don't get that so I don't see why they should' way, which is probably the wrong way around.

If the strike is over the latter I would have some sympathy if long-term, if it is simply short-term I'd have very little. I'd have none if it it was over salary.

On the plus side I got the overground in today, nearly empty, got a seat and then a lovely 15 minute into work - I wish they striked more!
 
akr said:
I'm not clear on the reasons for striking, but I do think there needs to be a differentiation between what they earn and being asked to work unsocial hours.

You can argue that the salary is too high - it feels that way but it is a role with some responsibility and whilst it is perceived as being simple I would assume there is an up for that level.

Anyway, regardless of salary, work home balance is an important thing. Whilst you can compensate someone financially for working late hours as we do in my company, it does not compensate for being away from your partners or children, or not being able to do this things out of work that you enjoy. This is often overlooked, or viewed in the the 'well I don't get that so I don't see why they should' way, which is probably the wrong way around.

If the strike is over the latter I would have some sympathy if long-term, if it is simply short-term I'd have very little. I'd have none if it it was over salary.

On the plus side I got the overground in today, nearly empty, got a seat and then a lovely 15 minute into work - I wish they striked more!
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It is simply short term whilst they are recruiting more tube drivers and launching the new product. A perfectly reasonable and normal request in my opinion.
 
dejongj said:
From the horses mouth ;)



So yes, initially during the transition phase they have little choice but to show some willingness to get the great company up to a new chapter in its history and customer service. Then once they've got more staff they can opt out. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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If I were a tube drive I'd have to take it with a pinch of salt.
Not fixed date for that to happen tho. Also no guarantee that they won't change there minds.

I've see things like this before, people get a carrot ;) or promise only for management to change there minds at a later date.
 
eeyore said:
If I were a tube drive I'd have to take it with a pinch of salt.
Not fixed date for that to happen tho. Also no guarantee that they won't change there minds.

I've see things like this before, people get a carrot ;) or promise only for management to change there minds at a later date.
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And both parties will always have a choice at those moment in time and have to make their own decision.

Sometimes there is point where either you just join in and get behind it or go away.
 
Garry Edwards said:
It seems to me, based on what this guy has told me, that driving a train is really nothing more than a reward for long service, there is very little actual responsibility, all that they really need to do is to stay awake in case something that won't happen actually does.
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It does seem primarily to entail sitting in a chair and pushing a lever, and remembering to let go of the lever if you happen to die.

Or, as an acquaintance referred to it during a particularly entertaining rant, "the highest-paid unskilled labour in Europe".
 
Llamaman said:
It does seem primarily to entail sitting in a chair and pushing a lever, and remembering to let go of the lever if you happen to die.

Or, as an acquaintance referred to it during a particularly entertaining rant, "the highest-paid unskilled labour in Europe".
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To be fair there is a little bit more to it, almost like an insurance policy and it kicks into play when the systems go wrong or it get stuck underground etc. I don't have a big issue with the remuneration itself, just have an issue with their winching about noticing and making political stances.
 
Ithought it funny a couple of years ago when one of the strikes was over the circle line drivers terms and conditions as they got the same time, but less breaks than other drivers. They had to do two loops or a loop and a bit, as opposed to other drivers who drove one end to the other of their line and then got a break

If they've 1700 applications every time, and take on 200, then to be honest, apart from the union - demand outstrips supply extensively.
 
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Overpaid Prima Donnas.

Automate the whole system.

Job done.
 
shreds said:
Overpaid Prima Donnas.

Automate the whole system.

Job done.
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Most of the modern trains are automated already, but the unions didn't like that either so following another strike we have drivers riding along in automated trains. Pretty much all they have to do is press the door close button and the go button, everything else is automated.

If you read the webpage on the new trains coming into service in 2025ish one of their key selling points is that they can be automated, but there in the small print it states that it will never be used without agreement from the unions.

And picking up on the point of being a driver is a reward for long service. There have been no external adverts for driver positions since 2008, and apparently the are not advertised to all TFL staff, but to the paid up union members.
 
Yv said:
So can anyone outline exactly what they are striking about, seeing as I keep seeing "It's not about the money" plastered everywhere without any of them actually specifying what it IS about. :rolleyes:
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"They all want to go on
Summer holidays,
Stop London working for a
Week or 2..."
 
Byker28i said:
...

If they've 1700 applications every time, and take on 200, then to be honest, apart from the union - demand outstrips supply extensively.
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Surely that would mean that for new drivers they could offer lower pay? I mean if there is so much demand for the job than why not ;)
 
bass_junkie83 said:
apparently the are not advertised to all TFL staff, but to the paid up union members.
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If true, that is an absolute disgrace and I cannot believe such a cartel is allowed to operate.
 
dejongj said:
Surely that would mean that for new drivers they could offer lower pay? I mean if there is so much demand for the job than why not ;)
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I bet if TFL offered those new positions outside instead of internally there would be people jumping at the chance. Even if they were only offered internally, I bet they would still get just as many people applying as they have in the past.
Ford did something similar in the UK a few years back. Any new workers get paid 10% less than workers employed before the date it was introduced and the Pension isn't as good, but the wages and pension are still good none the less and they have no problem getting more than enough applicants to fill the vacancies. The way I see it, the company is more economically viable and it allows UK operations to remain competitive to similar operations in other countries. I have plenty of workmates on the lower rate, but they have no problem with it, they are earning more money than they could or did outside.
 
Exactly, simple market forces. And if they don't get the quality resources then they have to improve the remuneration.
 
dejongj said:
Exactly, simple market forces. And if they don't get the quality resources then they have to improve the remuneration.
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Unions don't like it though, but then they are too thick to realise that unless they move with the times, they will suddenly find themselves with a lot less members,
 
I don't understand what business it is off them. If two adults agree terms and conditions out of free will then what is the problem?
 
akr said:
it does not compensate for being away from your partners or children, or not being able to do this things out of work that you enjoy.
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Remind me again how many hours they do and for how much?
I wish I could do part time hours for that type of money!
 
Cobra said:
Remind me again how many hours they do and for how much?
I wish I could do part time hours for that type of money!
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Sure, but my point is you have to separate the money and the unsocial hours.

Salary is one issue.
Working weekends \ nights is another.

As I said no sympathy if striking for money, but I do if it regards having to now work more late nights \ weekends etc. Though Dejong suggested that is temporary, so as per my initial post sympathy is limited.
 
nilagin said:
Any new workers get paid 10% less than workers employed before the date it was introduced and the Pension isn't as good,
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Heck, even the police operate a similar system now.

Our son has been in the RN for 12 years & they pay into his pension pot, but new recruits don't receive the same benefits these days.
 
nilagin said:
Unions don't like it though, but then they are too thick to realise that unless they move with the times, they will suddenly find themselves with a lot less members,
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At the moment union dues are subtracted from source, one of the recent things the govt said they were keen to stop. OK for the person to setup a direct debit.
 
As I sit here looking out of my living room window,at the clear blue sky and the sparkling blue sea ,and I remember travelling on the underground in London in my mis spent youth ,I read this thread and think to my self ,do I really give a toss :woot::woot::woot::exit:
 
I was contracting for a large rail freight company about 10 years ago doing there out of hour mainframe support and was on the support floor during some night shifts.
I got talking to some of the guys while waiting for some mainframe jobs to run and then starts for freight train drivers was about £50k plus the ability to add another £20 if you worked some of your downtime hours. That was just hauling coal and ballast at night doing an average 36 hours a week. I am led to believe now its more like £65k +extras.
 
OldCarlos said:
Heck, even the police operate a similar system now.
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I remember my ex copper mate moaning about that quite some time ( A couple of years maybe) ago, not that it affected him.

Byker28i said:
At the moment union dues are subtracted from source, one of the recent things the govt said they were keen to stop. OK for the person to setup a direct debit.
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Apparently it'll save 6 million ££ in admin fee's.

The more sceptical would say that its a perfect time for people to opt out of the union,
or just forget and opt out that way.
I'm sure that's not the governments intention though ;)
 
akr said:
Salary is one issue.
Working weekends \ nights is another.
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I agree with what you say, about the week end working, and I avoid it like the plague where possible,
but then I do a damned sight more hours than 36 / week anyway.
And for a lot less money too.

I don't think it would hurt them to be a little flexible for a change,
as mentioned its temporary and they are being well compensated for the inconvenience anyway.
akr said:
so as per my initial post sympathy is limited.
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Very limited here TBH
 
Mr Bump said:
... starts for freight train drivers was about £50k plus the ability to add another £20 if you worked some of your downtime hours. That was just hauling coal and ballast at night doing an average 36 hours a week. I am led to believe now its more like £65k +extras.
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"Just" hauling coal and ballast???

Driving a freight train is a very challenging job. 2000 tons of coal has a lot of momentum, and polished steel wheels on polished steel rails don't provide a lot of adhesion even in the dry. Your stopping distance can be measured in miles, and it depends on the gradient and track conditions miles ahead. Often in the dark, because a lot of freight moves overnight.

Freight train drivers are highly skilled, with a lot of safety related responsibility, and they are rostered on a 24/7 basis. I'm not saying it follows that £65k is reasonable, because I don't know what the employment market is like in this respect. But it's not obvious to me that they're overpaid.
 
@StewartR you don't know much about coal trains then if you think they weigh 2000 tons then i guess.
 
Mr Bump said:
@StewartR you don't know much about coal trains then if you think they weigh 2000 tons then i guess.
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OK, fair point, the heaviest coal or biomass trains on the UK network are currently only about 1750 tonnes.

Would you feel better if I'd said 4000 tonnes of aggregates instead?
 
dejongj said:
It is simply short term whilst they are recruiting more tube drivers and launching the new product. A perfectly reasonable and normal request in my opinion.
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I'll bet the temporary part is not written into the contract...
 
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