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Ricardodaforce said:
How do you think they are "heavily contributing" to the local economy? They'll be paying the local equivalent of VAT on purchases, but as they are in the minority they are hardly heavily contributing are they?
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As in buying/renting property, spending similarly, or maybe more, than if in the UK.
Also probably not draining their adopted country of many benefits either. (housing benefit, working tax credit, unemployment benefit.......) unlike many at home.
 
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Ricardodaforce said:
How do you think they are "heavily contributing" to the local economy? They'll be paying the local equivalent of VAT on purchases, but as they are in the minority they are hardly heavily contributing are they?
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On the assumption they are well off and owning high value properties my theory in terms of income tax, and property taxes (Spanish equivalent of council tax) plus VAT they will be paying more into the system than the average local person and taking less out (they won't be sending kids to school or claiming benefits).

As I said, the movement of wealthy or skilled/educated quality people is not an issue, either in or out. Its the movement of poor and unskilled/educated people en mass that is the problem.
 
ST4 said:
No, but they are paying plenty of tax to the country in which they are now resident and thus contributing heavily to the local economy.

Can the same be said for young part time staff working in Lidl who've come from Poland?
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Do you even have a clue what the pay is from the likes of Lidl / Aldi, as they actually rank as some of the best players in the retail sector, I know a few people that have and some that do still work for them...

I think you have a bit of a deluded idea on what the majority of ex-pats are, most are not multimillionaires looking to get away from the UK to hide vast welth
 
MWHCVT said:
Do you even have a clue what the pay is from the likes of Lidl / Aldi, as they actually rank as some of the best players in the retail sector, I know a few people that have and some that do still work for them...

I think you have a bit of a deluded idea on what the majority of ex-pats are, most are not multimillionaires looking to get away from the UK to hide vast welth
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It's still hardly 40% tax bracket stuff nor a level of work that is beyond people in Britain to do. The point is a lot of labour that we "import" we can probably get people here to do.

Most are not Millionaires, but most are wealthier than average to say the least and will be a net contributer to the economy to which they move.

I hope this will give you some understanding into the situation and economics of it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/612310/British-recruiters-advertise-jobs-abroad-Polish-workers

The solution is the points based system we use for people coming from outwith the EU, like Canada, US and Oz. Letting in skilled and wealthy people in moderate numbers is good. Letting in droves of unskilled and people of little economic consquence en mass...not good.
 
ST4 said:
As I said, the movement of wealthy or skilled/educated quality people is not an issue, either in or out. Its the movement of poor and unskilled/educated people en mass that is the problem.
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What you mean is you're happy for old Brits to move wherever they like and sponge off the local health service, but woe betide the Pole who wants to come to Britain and pay income tax. o_O :D
 
Llamaman said:
What you mean is you're happy for old Brits to move wherever they like and sponge off the local health service, but woe betide the Pole who wants to come to Britain and pay income tax. o_O :D
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No. Thats a deliberate misrepresentation of the situation and I think you know it. I know its trendy to bash "middle Englanders" and "retired Brits abroad"...

However the situation is much more like this:

These old Brits are tax paying and probably at higher rates and property owning people. They frequently have private healthcare. These are self supporting and net contributors to the economy not only in terms of taxation but in spending and in the jobs they bring in recreation (gold resorts...yuck but its a boon for Spain etc)

Lets consider the concept of net tax payer. Is a low paid worker really a net tax payer, add in tax credits, housing allowances they probably take out more than they put in. I'd say the property owning retiree we export gives more back then many of the low paid/unskilled people we import.
 
OldCarlos said:
Many, who have already paid a lifetime of taxes & NHS contributions, travel back to the UK.
Others have insurance/health plans.
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Do 20 something Polish Lidl workers have insurance and health plans, or when they have children who foots the bill for the healthcare and schooling of the kids....

Some EU nationals that come are skilled/wealthy and for sure are worth having, but they'd pass any points based immigration system we'd put in place.

Ex cons etc from the EU...Nah. Can do without those.
 
Llamaman said:
= joke :p


Edit to add some facts (gasp)... an expat would not be entitled to free health care in Spain unless they were paying social security there, so clearly I was not being serious. :D
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I wouldn't know to be fair...its really up to the Spanish whether they wish to take care of our OAPs. We are not obligating them to do so.
 
Schools in certain areas can't cope. Not just the numbers, but extra funding is needed because of the language & cultural differences.
Hospitals/GP's struggle in certain areas.

It isn't a case of singling out any nationality in particular, it is purely about the numbers & about the UK having control of our own borders.

What is so wrong with having a points system?

Why do we limit ourselves to an exclusive trading deal with the EU? The world is a far bigger & potentially more lucrative proposition.
It's a bit like saying (pick any County/area) we will only trade freely with a neighbouring county.

Apart from anything else, NO ONE in the UK (apart from self serving politicians) voted for what the EU has become & will only get worse.
 
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Amazing that those that have not lived abroad know so much about the lifestyles of those that do live abroad. Well let me tell you how it tends to be from experience....

The typical British immigrant in Spain (I can only speak from what I have witnessed) does not contribute much to the local economy. When they go out they will go to the local "British" pub or bar, spending their money in a British owned establishment. If they buy a newspaper it will be a British one, they couldn't even read El País or El Mundo anyway. TV will probably be an illegal Sky installation courtesy of a British installer, perish the thought of watching TVE or Telecinco through Movistar+. They will use British services to organise for them anything that requires dealings with the Town Hall, Police, local tax office, Traffic office or any kind of government department. Why? Because they can't speak Spanish.

Now, I appreciate that is a generalisation, but it is representative of the Brits abroad that I was unfortunate to come across in my years in Spain.
 
OldCarlos said:
Why do we limit ourselves to an exclusive trading deal with the EU? The world is a far bigger & potentially more lucrative proposition.
It's a bit like saying (pick any County/area) we will only trade freely with a neighbouring county...
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Do you think this stuff before typing?

Who's restricted to only dealing with the EU?

No-one at all, there's even posters in this thread discussing how their employers prefer to deal outwith the EU.

As far as overstretched services, they're not overstretched because there's too many people, they're overstretched because they're underfunded. We've shown statistics to prove that increased population is helping the economy, if the government choose to not spend it where it's needed, then it's obvious who's fault that is... and it's not the immigrants.
 
ST4 said:
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/612310/British-recruiters-advertise-jobs-abroad-Polish-workers
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Oddly, you and I don't need legislation to behave well, a free market is nothing but positive. Until employers behave like this, but then it's not their fault, they need legislation to tie their hands.

Why do they do this? I've already discussed it, you won't like my answer. It's because those foreigners will work better for less and put up with worse treatment. Maybe with strong unions ensuring employers were behaving legally? I'm sure you'd be in favour of that.
 
ST4 said:
It's still hardly 40% tax bracket stuff nor a level of work that is beyond people in Britain to do. The point is a lot of labour that we "import" we can probably get people here to do.

Most are not Millionaires, but most are wealthier than average to say the least and will be a net contributer to the economy to which they move.

I hope this will give you some understanding into the situation and economics of it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/612310/British-recruiters-advertise-jobs-abroad-Polish-workers

The solution is the points based system we use for people coming from outwith the EU, like Canada, US and Oz. Letting in skilled and wealthy people in moderate numbers is good. Letting in droves of unskilled and people of little economic consquence en mass...not good.
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Do you have any clue what percentage of the working population of the UK falls in the 40% bracket? I'll give you a clue it ain't a massive number
 
Phil V said:
Do you think this stuff before typing?

Who's restricted to only dealing with the EU?

No-one at all, there's even posters in this thread discussing how their employers prefer to deal outwith the EU.
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But why let facts get in the way of some good old fashioned prejudices.....
 
MWHCVT said:
Do you have any clue what percentage of the working population of the UK falls in the 40% bracket? I'll give you a clue it ain't a massive number
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Again you miss the point entirely. The point is that all the unskilled labour we import can be done by British people. Working in Aldi isn't a specialised job that requires importing labour from abroad. Nor will the workers we import contribute much if anything to our economy because they don't earn much.
 
Phil V said:
Oddly, you and I don't need legislation to behave well, a free market is nothing but positive. Until employers behave like this, but then it's not their fault, they need legislation to tie their hands.

Why do they do this? I've already discussed it, you won't like my answer. It's because those foreigners will work better for less and put up with worse treatment. Maybe with strong unions ensuring employers were behaving legally? I'm sure you'd be in favour of that.
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Why is a foreign person more capable than a British person. I'm sure I won't like the answer.

I think it's time if we are out the EU employers will have to employ local people.

As I said earlier, British people are skilled, capable and able to work. Why not believe in ourselves and our people. Just a thought.
 
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Phil V said:
Do you think this stuff before typing?
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Do you ever post without trying to be condescending mod edit: watch it with the personal comments.
 
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Ricardodaforce said:
But why let facts get in the way of some good old fashioned prejudices.....
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You're another. Bring prejudice into a debate to try to belittle someone else.


You are the one who posted; `....an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society`.

It was ok for you to post that because you were referring Brits abroad & not to immigrants in the UK
 
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ST4 said:
Can the same be said for young part time staff working in Lidl who've come from Poland?
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Assuming they're earning and spending in the UK Yes. A more interesting question is why Lidl et al feel the need to recruit heavily abroad
 
OldCarlos said:
You're another. Bring prejudice into a debate to try to belittle someone else.


You are the one who posted; `....an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society`.

It was ok for you to post that because you were referring Brits abroad & not to immigrants in the UK
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If it's not prejudice then what made you type the utter drivel about us being only able to trade with the EU?
 
ST4 said:
Again you miss the point entirely. The point is that all the unskilled labour we import can be done by British people.
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They're taking our jobs!!!!!!! OMG somebody call a waaaaaaaambulance!!!!!! Seriosuly though Steve, what do you think is impeding British people applying for and getting those jobs you refer to? Do you think the likes of Lidl or Aldi automatically consign CVs from British people to the bin?
 
ST4 said:
Why is a foreign person more capable than a British person. I'm sure I won't like the answer.

I think it's time if we are out the EU employers will have to employ local people.

As I said earlier, British people are skilled, capable and able to work. Why not believe in ourselves and our people. Just a thought.
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What about employers are entitled to employ the best person for the job? Whilst citizenship may be required by law for certain jobs, it doesn't make anyone 'better' at the job. There is nothing stopping British People from applying to the same jobs.
 
OldCarlos said:
You're another. Bring prejudice into a debate to try to belittle someone else.


You are the one who posted; `....an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society`.

It was ok for you to post that because you were referring Brits abroad & not to immigrants in the UK
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Now who's making suppositions? I think ANY immigrant to ANY country has a duty to integrate into society.
 
dejongj said:
What about employers are entitled to employ the best person for the job? Whilst citizenship may be required by law for certain jobs, it doesn't make anyone 'better' at the job. There is nothing stopping British People from applying to the same jobs.
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I'm sure in the cases of relatively unskilled jobs like working in a supermarket or laying bricks the best person doesn't have to come from over 1000miles. We get perfectly good staff in our Glasgow office from wait for it...Glasgow.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
They're taking our jobs!!!!!!! OMG somebody call a waaaaaaaambulance!!!!!! Seriosuly though Steve, what do you think is impeding British people applying for and getting those jobs you refer to? Do you think the likes of Lidl or Aldi automatically consign CVs from British people to the bin?
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The employers bias. All I know when I go into either of these stores the staff tend to be Eastern European. They're perfectly capable but a British person could easily do that job and with 2mil unemployed I do wonder sometimes.
 
ST4 said:
I'm sure in the cases of relatively unskilled jobs like working in a supermarket or laying bricks the best person doesn't have to come from over 1000miles. We get perfectly good staff in our Glasgow office from wait for it...Glasgow.
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Yet employers have to cast their net much wider, that is the reality.
 
OldCarlos said:
You're another. Bring prejudice into a debate to try to belittle someone else.


You are the one who posted; `....an immigrant that lives in a commune of like minded people that has no intention of integrating with society`.

It was ok for you to post that because you were referring Brits abroad & not to immigrants in the UK
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Hahahahahahaha.

Imagine that. It's fine for people immigrating here to cling to their communities and establish ghettos but it's not ok for an old dude living in Spain to call an English speaking plumber.
 
ST4 said:
In the case of stacking shelves and using a checkout they really don't. Waitrose, tesco and asda manage with a majority of British staff, why can't Aldi or Lidl?
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We can speculate all we want, reality is they can't get the staff locally if they have to go abroad...
 
ST4 said:
In the case of stacking shelves and using a checkout they really don't. Waitrose, tesco and asda manage with a majority of British staff, why can't Aldi or Lidl?
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Assuming they're all meeting minimum wage then dunno. But can you back up that Aldi and Lidl employ a high % of eu workers then the others do?
 
ST4 said:
Go into a few stores. It's obvious.
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But how do you know whether they are recruited from abroad or were already in the country? Further more, as ALDI has been in existence for many decades perhaps some of those members of staff have a distinct advantage called prior experience ;) I know I would favour an experienced person over one that hasn't all things equal.
 
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