Why are people buying electric cars?

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ancient_mariner said:
Thanks, I plainly should have looked more closely last time I visited 'our Intermarché' which has more than a dozen chargers under a vast solar panel array.

Our route from the tunnel takes us past St. Omer, among others, and that would be an obvious place to stop, but it's just the thing of having to spend an extra 40 min that lengthens an already long journey where we would not stop. The return would be less difficult because we usually allow good time and could build in stops, but outbound is more difficult.
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We would have been stuffed last week coming back from Carcassonne. The farmers lit bonfires on the autoroutes causing them to be closed so our journey home was 8.5h and 560km rather than half that time and 430km. Because all the traffic between the Iberian peninsular and eastern Europe had to use the old D routes it was chokka all the way up to Brive. Fortunately I had a full tank of gazole when we departed the car park at Carcassonne. When we stopped for a picnic we didn't have to consider charging points.

A brief look at chargers at Intermarche online suggest that you have to visit the reception and leave proof of id just to use them. Sounds like a recipe for grief!
 
ancient_mariner said:
There's something that might put me off an EV that I'd not taken seriously before - the cost of needing to fast-charge if travelling. Just watched a comparison video of a Tesla Y, BYD and IM6 being driven just over 500 miles from Twickenham to Cornwall and back. Topped up twice using motorway fast chargers during the trip:

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Now I appreciate charging at home is cheaper, but that BYD Sealion cost almost than double what my current diesel SUV would cost to do the run (about £74 for 53L) and this was also starting off at 100% fully charged from home.
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Something doesn't look right there, the average khw cost on a motorway service area is about 65p per kwh. Unless they looked for the fastest possible most expensive chargers they could find and drove like they were on a race track I don't see how it's possible to rack up a bill that large in 500 miles.

/edit to add, for example I used a Gridserve 100kw charger at the services at Todhills (Carslisle) a couple of months ago and it was only 59p pkwh.
 
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Clive K said:
A brief look at chargers at Intermarche online suggest that you have to visit the reception and leave proof of id just to use them. Sounds like a recipe for grief!
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Everything can be a problem if you want it to be.
 
LeeRatters said:
Which obviously works the other way too ;)
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Indeed. But some of these articles are almost literally the equivalent of the "other side" writing "if you run out of fuel, the RAC charge £15 for a single litre.... At £15 per litre, driving in first gear all the way........"

You can pay a lot for electricity, but most people don't.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
...and yet again we can see the elephant in the middle of the room: why should charging at home not incur the same fuel duty as petrol or diesel?

After all, the roads still have to be maintained.
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This isn't the elephant in the room as you call it. The issue is how governments choose to raise taxes from all sources. Charging at home is more about convenience for me and not putting profit in a suppliers pocket unnecessarily. Public chargers do have VAT at 20% compared to home charging at 5% but the vast majority of the price difference is the suppliers profit margins.


Currently, they are incentivising the purchase and use of EVs to meet their targets for carbon emissions but the benefits are getting less as they become normalised. I pay VED on my car, like you do - in fact my car is more expensive VED than my wife's petrol car. In addition, there is the pending 3p per mile for EVs.

I'm not against being charged fairly for the use of my EV - I would still have one even if they were as expensive to run as ICE cars. It isn't always about the financials.
 
Buck said:
This isn't the elephant in the room as you call it. The issue is how governments choose to raise taxes from all sources. Charging at home is more about convenience for me and not putting profit in a suppliers pocket unnecessarily. Public chargers do have VAT at 20% compared to home charging at 5% but the vast majority of the price difference is the suppliers profit margins.


Currently, they are incentivising the purchase and use of EVs to meet their targets for carbon emissions but the benefits are getting less as they become normalised. I pay VED on my car, like you do - in fact my car is more expensive VED than my wife's petrol car. In addition, there is the pending 3p per mile for EVs.

I'm not against being charged fairly for the use of my EV - I would still have one even if they were as expensive to run as ICE cars. It isn't always about the financials.
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A public EV charger can cost £50,000 plus the installation, land rent/rates if applicable, all that cost has to be recouped by a business since business exists to make profit, not loss.
 
Buck said:
I'm not against being charged fairly for the use of my EV
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OK.

In that case, can you or any other electric car driver complain, if the VED is raised by the appropriate amount, to recover the fuel duty which has not been paid and the money lost by the government paying a proportion of the purchase price?
 
Steep said:
Something doesn't look right there, the average khw cost on a motorway service area is about 65p per kwh. Unless they looked for the fastest possible most expensive chargers they could find and drove like they were on a race track I don't see how it's possible to rack up a bill that large in 500 miles.

/edit to add, for example I used a Gridserve 100kw charger at the services at Todhills (Carslisle) a couple of months ago and it was only 59p pkwh.
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When I get back on the computer I'll try to find the video.

Yes, they absolutely were trying to find the fastest charger for one of the vehicles, because it claimed to charge at 359kw (it didn't succeed) but in similar circumstances I might well look for the fastest charger I could find. On a long journey the longest stop I want is 30min tops, and usually prefer a wee and quick leg stretch every 1-2 hours. In the video they also had rain, causing an increase in energy usage - from memory two cars averaged about 3.1miles/KW and one did about 2.8.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
OK.

In that case, can you or any other electric car driver complain, if the VED is raised by the appropriate amount, to recover the fuel duty which has not been paid and the money lost by the government paying a proportion of the purchase price?
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You are definitely anti-EV aren't you!?

I am more than happy to pay my fair share of tax as I have done all my working life. If the government of the day changes the rate of tax in any area then, yes, I'll pay it.

The fundamental here is that the tax on ICE cars has not increased (if you recall there has been a 5p fuel duty decrease for some time) but rather that the incentive to gain traction on EV ownership has led to lower comparable duty rates. If I recall, the same was done when we were all encourage to move from petrol to diesel.
 
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ancient_mariner said:
When I get back on the computer I'll try to find the video.

Yes, they absolutely were trying to find the fastest charger for one of the vehicles, because it claimed to charge at 359kw (it didn't succeed) but in similar circumstances I might well look for the fastest charger I could find. On a long journey the longest stop I want is 30min tops, and usually prefer a wee and quick leg stretch every 1-2 hours. In the video they also had rain, causing an increase in energy usage - from memory two cars averaged about 3.1miles/KW and one did about 2.8.
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Since one of your main concerns is total journey time, it's worth mentioning that "filling" an EV is generally not recommended - especially at a public charger. The last 10% (90 - 100) can take as long as the first 90% and for battery health many manufacturers don't recommend 100% charging except when necessary especially at high speed. (it varies depending on the chemistry but I don't care enough to look it up).

So _typically_ you may start at 100% on a cheap home charge and then recharge wen you hit 20% up to maybe 80%. And repeat.
 
Steep said:
Everything can be a problem if you want it to be.
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Well to be able to get one hour's free charge at around 22amp you will have to park up, visit the acceuil at the supermarket to present your documents (minimum 15 minutes), walk back to the car and plug in the charger, do your shopping and dawdle for enough to make up an hour which is three times longer than we shop, but not long enough to have lunch, go back to the acceuil and recover your proof of identity. (minimum 15 minutes). Or you can subscribe to one of the many charge card services, hope that you can find a charger that accepts the card that you have and plug into a 350amp charger at whatever the variable rate per amp is at that particular time for that particular charge provider.

Or you can fill the tank at any supermarket in a few minutes at roughly the same cost and happily do almost 500 miles before needing to do it again.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Since one of your main concerns is total journey time, it's worth mentioning that "filling" an EV is generally not recommended - especially at a public charger. The last 10% (90 - 100) can take as long as the first 90% and for battery health many manufacturers don't recommend 100% charging except when necessary especially at high speed. (it varies depending on the chemistry but I don't care enough to look it up).

So _typically_ you may start at 100% on a cheap home charge and then recharge wen you hit 20% up to maybe 80%. And repeat.
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Thanks for pointing that out, although I was aware. In a way it's another nail in the coffin of range, since the ideal is 20% to 80% so one can recharge only 3/5th of the battery quickly.
 
Clive K said:
Well to be able to get one hour's free charge at around 22amp you will have to park up, visit the acceuil at the supermarket to present your documents (minimum 15 minutes)
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I had not been aware of the need to visit the desk before charging, but I guess it's because the chargers are a part of the service and incentive to customers. It's a shame they can't do it via the carte de fidelité.

It seems that Lidl 'have an app for that' and one can sign in to their chargers using the (French, not UK) version of the app outside their supermarkets, assuming they have chargers available of course. A quick search tells me they have chargers at the Autun Lidl. There's also another opposite the hotel we use in Rheims, but I'm not sure of the location within the cite.
 
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When I use fast (250+ chargers) I can easily put on 200 miles in 20 mins. Just enough time to walk from the car to services, have a wee and maybe buy a drink.
 
Buck said:
You are definitely anti-EV aren't you!?
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Au contraire.

I have nothing against electric powered vehicles and in fact, I think they are a good idea for many purposes. I am however, very much against very large amounts of public money being used to bribe people to buy them.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Au contraire.

I have nothing against electric powered vehicles and in fact, I think they are a good idea for many purposes. I am however, very much against very large amounts of public money being used to bribe people to buy them.
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Would you be against motorways, then?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Au contraire.

I have nothing against electric powered vehicles and in fact, I think they are a good idea for many purposes. I am however, very much against very large amounts of public money being used to bribe people to buy them.
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Public money is used in many different areas to bribe people - encourage us to save for pension, no tax on contributions. Change vehicles, lower one tax, raise the other. Subsidised heat pumps and loft insulation. Wanting to stop smoking, heavily subsidised. There are probably hundred more examples of various groups/things benefitting like EV

Are people using vapes ripping off the government/taxpayer by not smoking fags?
 
cambsno said:
Public money is used in many different areas to bribe people - encourage us to save for pension, no tax on contributions. Change vehicles, lower one tax, raise the other. Subsidised heat pumps and loft insulation. Wanting to stop smoking, heavily subsidised. There are probably hundred more examples of various groups/things benefitting like EV

Are people using vapes ripping off the government/taxpayer by not smoking fags?
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None of those examples fit my definition of a bribe and none are the same as giving wealthy people public money to buy something they can already afford.
 
Clive K said:
Well to be able to get one hour's free charge at around 22amp you will have to park up, visit the acceuil at the supermarket to present your documents (minimum 15 minutes), walk back to the car and plug in the charger, do your shopping and dawdle for enough to make up an hour which is three times longer than we shop, but not long enough to have lunch, go back to the acceuil and recover your proof of identity. (minimum 15 minutes). Or you can subscribe to one of the many charge card services, hope that you can find a charger that accepts the card that you have and plug into a 350amp charger at whatever the variable rate per amp is at that particular time for that particular charge provider.

Or you can fill the tank at any supermarket in a few minutes at roughly the same cost and happily do almost 500 miles before needing to do it again.
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Or you can just go to a different charger somewhere else to top up. Literally nobody who drives an EV goes to a 22kw charger because they need to charge unless they have no other choice (not least because most cars will only charge at 7kw anyway). As has been said in this thread many many times, driving an EV means you change your habits. Most notably when driving a route that's new to you, you plan ahead. Once you know an area it's easy, until then you take five minutes and see where the best options are first.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
None of those examples fit my definition of a bribe and none are the same as giving wealthy people public money to buy something they can already afford.
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So how many working class people can afford heat pumps - of course these are bribes too. They just dont suit your biased agenda!

I could not have afforded an EV without the cost savings attached to it.
 
cambsno said:
So how many working class people can afford heat pumps - of course these are bribes too. They just dont suit your biased agenda!

I could not have afforded an EV without the cost savings attached to it.
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Of course heat pumps are the subject of bribes, for the simple reason that they are not necessary.

I don't have one of those biased agenda things, possibly because I don't qualify for that bribe... :thinking: :naughty:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
None of those examples fit my definition of a bribe and none are the same as giving wealthy people public money to buy something they can already afford.
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AndrewFlannigan said:
I have nothing against electric powered vehicles and in fact, I think they are a good idea for many purposes. I am however, very much against very large amounts of public money being used to bribe people to buy them.
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Not all EV drivers are wealthy and I would counter that the incentive is to encourage a shift to a relatively new technology that has negative aspects as well as positive.

It has always been thus that you incentivise change/behaviours. Not just limited to EVs but think Job Seeker allowance, Nursery vouchers, Pension credits, Cycle to Work, Pension contributions, Gift Aid and so on.
 
ancient_mariner said:
FTFY. ;)
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I'm pretty sure I would qualify for the bribe, as things stand, simply because I could buy an electric car tomorrow.

What I object to, is people in my position being bribed. If the money was given only to people who can't buy an electric powered car, because of their financial position but could gain serious benefit from such a vehicle, I would be happy to see that being done.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
None of those examples fit my definition of a bribe and none are the same as giving wealthy people public money to buy something they can already afford.
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As has been said previously Government will offer an incentive to drive forward their policies. Without moving off course too much do you consider ISA a bribe to wealthier people? The basic rate savings allowance is £1000 so roughly about £30k of savings interest is tax free. If you have more then you can put another £20k into an ISA each year.
It's all about Government priorities and getting their policies implemented.

The incentives for EVs in the earlier years are effectively pump priming and as we were now seeing are gradually being withdrawn. How quickly this happens and by how much will be a balance between total tax receipts and how well that policy is perceived to be successful
 
taxboy said:
Without moving off course too much do you consider ISA a bribe to wealthier people?
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Yes.

People such as myself should receive no extra "incentives". We've got enough and any money currently used for bribes should go towards helping those who are not so lucky as us.
taxboy said:
The incentives for EVs in the earlier years are effectively pump priming...
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I take the view that commercial products should stand or fall on their own performance in the market place.

To the point: I strongly believe that government should never promote any commercial product for any reason. If electric cars are a good idea, they will sell within the same financial environment as internal combustion cars. If they don't sell in that environment, they are by definition failures and should be allowed to die.
 
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I don't mind incentives to encourage people into something new, but I don't like punitive policies to force people into them.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Yes.

People such as myself should receive no extra "incentives". We've got enough and any money currently used for bribes should go towards helping those who are not so lucky as us.

I take the view that commercial products should stand or fall on their own performance in the market place.

To the point: I strongly believe that government should never promote any commercial product for any reason. If electric cars are a good idea, they will sell within the same financial environment as internal combustion cars. If they don't sell in that environment, they are by definition failures and should be allowed to die.
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I dont think it's about being lucky - a lot of the time it's about being sensible. Choosing not to have the latest phone, get your nails done each week and get takeaways a lot verses savings is not luck!

So I guess things like rail, buses etc are commercial products so should not be subsidised?
 
cambsno said:
So I guess things like rail, buses etc are commercial products so should not be subsidised?
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If you really cannot tell the difference between a social transport system and private vehicles, nothing I can write here will have any meaning for you.
 
cambsno said:
I dont think it's about being lucky - a lot of the time it's about being sensible. Choosing not to have the latest phone, get your nails done each week and get takeaways a lot verses savings is not luck!

So I guess things like rail, buses etc are commercial products so should not be subsidised?
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He will still have to think about motorways…
 
I do understand the reasons for the government promoting electric vehicles trying to do something about global warming but in practice electric vehicles are not the best option for everyone
There are many with slightly older perfectly good vehicles that wouldn’t be able to afford a new electric car anyway, like ourselves
 
LCPete said:
I do understand the reasons for the government promoting electric vehicles trying to do something about global warming but in practice electric vehicles are not the best option for everyone
There are many with slightly older perfectly good vehicles that wouldn’t be able to afford a new electric car anyway, like ourselves
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That could be said of any similar initiative. Some people can qualify. Some won't. Same as discounting bikes for the Ride to Work scheme, ISAs and grants for insulation.
 
Clive K said:
That could be said of any similar initiative. Some people can qualify. Some won't. Same as discounting bikes for the Ride to Work scheme, ISAs and grants for insulation.
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I've benefitted from the cycle to work scheme and probably will again. It's a great idea but really not a good example of incentivising people to "do the right thing".

The more you earn, the cheaper a bike is. Or the more you earn, the better bike you can get for your money. That's a bit crazy.
 
Clive K said:
That could be said of any similar initiative. Some people can qualify. Some won't. Same as discounting bikes for the Ride to Work scheme, ISAs and grants for insulation.
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These are all good ideas if implemented correctly.

However, I think that the essential condition for receiving such a grant has to be that you lack the money to purchase such things yourself.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I've benefitted from the cycle to work scheme and probably will again. It's a great idea but really not a good example of incentivising people to "do the right thing".

The more you earn, the cheaper a bike is. Or the more you earn, the better bike you can get for your money. That's a bit crazy.
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There was a similar scheme where I used to work. Many took it up, but I didn't see many of the bikes being used to ride to work. It was offered to people who lived 30 miles from work without question and even I qualified despite having a 40 mile round trip and needing to take a police dog with me.
 
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