Why are people buying electric cars?

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Steep said:
The point you are not wanting to face is that regardless of whether you or I like EVs they are the future.
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Could you lend me that crystal ball you're using?

I wouldn't mind putting a few bets on at the next meeting in Sandown Park... ;)
 
Steep said:
China ranks top in renewable energy, they produce more than 30% of the world's renewable electricity.
India's renewable sector is growing exponentially and they expect to reach net zero by 2070.
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China also produces more than 30% of the world's CO2 pollution, with even the US trailing behind at 12.6%. India is the number 3 polluter in the world.

Even with PM2.5 concenration, China is 5-7 times exceeding WHO guidelines. India is horrific at over 10 times, making them number 5. For reference, the UK is 1-2 times.

Of course if much of the world is going to export their manufacturering to China, then naturally they are going to create the pollution. However, if we are that concerned about the world and pollution, then perhaps we shouldn't be exporting our manufacturing to such high polluting countries and instead keep it in the UK so that we can ensure lower pollution whilst also strengthening our economy.
 
Steep said:
4 years ago the EV market was very different, it's not entirely Toyota's fault they got it wrong, they've never been a great exponent of BEVs, preferring the hybrid route. I think if you asked their CEO the same question today you'd get a very different answer.

China ranks top in renewable energy, they produce more than 30% of the world's renewable electricity.
India's renewable sector is growing exponentially and they expect to reach net zero by 2070.
As for Brazil, I have no idea why you would pick such a bad example, Brazil has over 80% rewable electricity generation and had had for many years, mainly through hydro electric, similar to Scotland in that respect.

The point you are not wanting to face is that regardless of whether you or I like EVs they are the future. Sure you can drive a petrol car for decades to come but at some point in the not too distant future the price of fuel is going to be prohibitive purely because it's getting harder to extract the dwindling supply of oil.
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I got two out of three

www.worldometers.info

CO2 Emissions by Country - Worldometer

Carbon Dioxide (CO2) Emissions by Country in the world with Global share of CO2 greenhouse emissions by country
www.worldometers.info www.worldometers.info
 
Sort the list by 'per capita.
 
It's worth the thought you put into it. China has the second biggest population in the world so of course it has higher co2 output than other industrialised countries. The only country larger is India with a very much smaller industrial base.

If you want to make comparisons to back your position on ICE v EV you need to make sure that the data you put forward is as valid as you think it is. You've called out China's co2 output without trying to understand why their figures are so much higher. If you sort the list by per capita from high to low then China drops to 24th place.
 
Steep said:
It's worth the thought you put into it. China has the second biggest population in the world so of course it has higher co2 output than other industrialised countries. The only country larger is India with a very much smaller industrial base.

If you want to make comparisons to back your position on ICE v EV you need to make sure that the data you put forward is as valid as you think it is. You've called out China's co2 output without trying to understand why their figures are so much higher. If you sort the list by per capita from high to low then China drops to 24th place.
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And yet per capita half as much again as the UK.. As I said; we are whistling in the wind whilst wrecking our industries, putting people on the dole and becoming economic hostages to China.

But, the point that I made was that our friend is playing the ecological card purely on owning evs whilst jetting off on holidays that those who can't afford evs cannot afford to go on.
 
Steep said:
At some point driving a 10 year old gas guzzler must become uneconomical as well as undesirable and despite your emotive claims the number of people who are seriously affected by the rule is relatively small and there are alternatives for most.
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"We've" got 5 cars between us, newest is my daughter's 12 plate Fiesta. There's only the Escort whichever I'd say is uneconomical. I think my boys i10 might be the only one classed as undesirable :ROFLMAO: - it isn't nice to drive.
 
Eucris said:
Well that was 14 minutes and 40 seconds of utter drivel. He doesn't actually tell you where or how you can get these huge discounts that he claims are available.

If someone can tell me where I can buy a brand new VW ID.3 for £23900 I would be very grateful.
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Make the effort, are you seriously going to sit at home and not buy a car because nobody told you where to look?

I suspect his reason for not saying is because if he mentions one source he'll be inundated with complaints of favouristism.

I got my heavily discounted car from an advert in AutoTrader but other options exist.
 
Steep said:
Make the effort, are you seriously going to sit at home and not buy a car because nobody told you where to look?

I suspect his reason for not saying is because if he mentions one source he'll be inundated with complaints of favouristism.

I got my heavily discounted car from an advert in AutoTrader but other options exist.
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I suspect if you are familiar with the car market and ways to get deals then it's all quite obvious and easy to figure out. However if you're a novice at this, hate going to a car dealer and don't have the experience of negotiating car deals then it could feel like you've been left hanging.

I may well replace my car next year, but I hate doing the rounds of dealers, and feel awkward with it all. Not sure how it will work out or what we might get. Another Karoq would be nice, but they stopped making the diesel version in 2023 and I don't want petrol (live in the country, diesel is less polluting than petrol with lower CO2). Electric - the range isn't there yet really for me to feel comfortable about our drives across France.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I suspect if you are familiar with the car market and ways to get deals then it's all quite obvious and easy to figure out. However if you're a novice at this, hate going to a car dealer and don't have the experience of negotiating car deals then it could feel like you've been left hanging.

I may well replace my car next year, but I hate doing the rounds of dealers, and feel awkward with it all. Not sure how it will work out or what we might get. Another Karoq would be nice, but they stopped making the diesel version in 2023 and I don't want petrol (live in the country, diesel is less polluting than petrol with lower CO2). Electric - the range isn't there yet really for me to feel comfortable about our drives across France.
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Familiar with the car market or not, everybody is familiar with google and it takes less time to type in a search than it does to come on a forum and have a moan about not being handed the info on a plate.

I was much the same as you, I spent a lot of time watching YT vids of different cars, came to the conclusion that every one of them is only there for the views, not to pass on useful info. I managed to narrow my choices down though to 2 models both sold by the same dealership locally. I googled to see what prices were like and as I said above found my car with £10,000 off. The local dealer was and is still selling at list price.

Re France, they have a pretty good charger network I believe, one thing you can do is search your usual route with ev charging stops at comfortable intervals and see what that gets you. A good starting distance between stops is 200 miles. Most new cars can go a lot further but if you're new to it, giving yourself a buffer is a good plan.
 
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LeeRatters said:
I think my boys i10 might be the only one classed as undesirable :ROFLMAO: - it isn't nice to drive.
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Awwww - I really liked my i10 and I regularly did 100 mile work journeys in it. I suppose it just goes to show that one man's steak and kidney pudding is another man's dead cow in greasy flour... :naughty:
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Awwww - I really liked my i10 and I regularly did 100 mile work journeys in it. I suppose it just goes to show that one man's steak and kidney pudding is another man's dead cow in greasy flour... :naughty:
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Yours might have been newer? His is 2009, 1.2 so at least it's 4 cylinder, but the accelerator & clutch in use are a terrible feeling - trying to keep it at a steady 20mph is impossible, under might be okay but the slightest pressure on the pedal and it wants to jump up above 20, it's almost like it's kangarooing!! The old Escort is more controllable :ROFLMAO: It doesn't go too bad though for what it is - we went to the Brecon's a few weeks ago & he sat at a constant 70mph on the motorway & carriageways.
 
Nod said:
I've thought about one of them but they're stupid expensive - a motorbike is cheaper! Getting the cargo bike through the house would be impossible too because the path through the front door isn't a long enough straight to get through.
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I don't know how much motorbikes cost but a very good quality cargo bike is between £3 and £5K (though you can buy ones for much less). No tax, insurance or servicing (at time of recording) and a full charge for 4p might take you 50 miles with 75kg of load.

Also, I don't see why they wouldn't be suitable for a cycle to work scheme (which totally is tax dodging :) )
 
LeeRatters said:
Yours might have been newer?
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I got mine on a 3 year contract in 2012 and I had no trouble with it at all.

When I retired, I handed it back and bought an ex-demonstrator, top of the line, i30 which I've been running ever since. I've had only one major problem, when the main dealer updated the navigator from the wrong disk! If I felt the need to replace the i30, I'm pretty sure I'd get another Hyundai.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I don't know how much motorbikes cost but a very good quality cargo bike is between £3 and £5K (though you can buy ones for much less). No tax, insurance or servicing (at time of recording) and a full charge for 4p might take you 50 miles with 75kg of load.

Also, I don't see why they wouldn't be suitable for a cycle to work scheme (which totally is tax dodging :) )
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Not eligible for cycle to work - long time retired!

You can pick up a brand new 125 for around 3 grand. Tax is cheap as chips (£26) and insurance is cheaper than a pushbike. WAY more comfortable too, especially for trips over 5 miles.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I don't know how much motorbikes cost but a very good quality cargo bike is between £3 and £5K (though you can buy ones for much less). No tax, insurance or servicing (at time of recording) and a full charge for 4p might take you 50 miles with 75kg of load.

Also, I don't see why they wouldn't be suitable for a cycle to work scheme (which totally is tax dodging :) )
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i had a nice road bike through the ride to work scheme :) that was a cracking tax dodge


www.southforkracing.co.uk

Scott Speedster 10 Mens Road Bike

<p style="margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Arial;"> The SCOTT Speedster 10 features shape optimised double butted Alloy tubing, race proven geometry and an Aero Carbon fork, it boasts F01 racing characteristics at a fraction of the cost.
www.southforkracing.co.uk
 
Nod said:
Not eligible for cycle to work - long time retired!

You can pick up a brand new 125 for around 3 grand. Tax is cheap as chips (£26) and insurance is cheaper than a pushbike. WAY more comfortable too, especially for trips over 5 miles.
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Does that include the attachment to hold a week's shopping?
 
Mr Bump said:
i had a nice road bike through the ride to work scheme :) that was a cracking tax dodge


www.southforkracing.co.uk

Scott Speedster 10 Mens Road Bike

<p style="margin: 0px; font-size: 16px; font-family: Arial;"> The SCOTT Speedster 10 features shape optimised double butted Alloy tubing, race proven geometry and an Aero Carbon fork, it boasts F01 racing characteristics at a fraction of the cost.
www.southforkracing.co.uk
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You'd be amazed how often I ride my hardtail to work :)
 
Currently looking for a possible replacement for our Skoda Karoq diesel 4X4, ideally 1-2 years old.

It could be a *little* smaller, but I'd quite like something with a good load space to allow us to carry large items occasionally.
I'd like a diesel with a manual gearbox not auto) but those seem to be getting rarer, and the Karoq diesel went out of production in 2023.
I'd quite like an EV in some ways, but it must do a minimum real-world 300+ miles on a charge in the winter.
If possible it would be nice to have something that didn't look like a housebrick on wheels or worse (the Ariya is desperately repulsive).
Must be available with non-sports tyres & rims, because the country roads here are so heavily damaged.
Needs to handle reasonably well because I have to do real driving, and also be comfortable enough for 500 mile 12 hour journeys.
Needs to be around £25K or less.

A The Skoda Elroq is the obvious candidate, but is very noticeably longer than the Karoq. There's the Renault Scenic E, but I've serious concerns about build quality (work with a Zoe owner). A Tesla model Y would be affordable, but not sure I could cope with doing everything through the screen (nor do I want to support Musk in any way). A BMW i4 doesn't really have the load height, and BMW and Audi SUV models are too expensive in electric. There's a lot of electric cars around that *might* be OK if the range was longer, but their LR variants aren't good enough. A petrol-electric hybrid might do it, but many seem overly complicated with the disadvantages of both sides.

Any suggestions, based on my criteria above?
 
ancient_mariner said:
Currently looking for a possible replacement for our Skoda Karoq diesel 4X4, ideally 1-2 years old.

It could be a *little* smaller, but I'd quite like something with a good load space to allow us to carry large items occasionally.
I'd like a diesel with a manual gearbox not auto) but those seem to be getting rarer, and the Karoq diesel went out of production in 2023.
I'd quite like an EV in some ways, but it must do a minimum real-world 300+ miles on a charge in the winter.
If possible it would be nice to have something that didn't look like a housebrick on wheels or worse (the Ariya is desperately repulsive).
Must be available with non-sports tyres & rims, because the country roads here are so heavily damaged.
Needs to handle reasonably well because I have to do real driving, and also be comfortable enough for 500 mile 12 hour journeys.
Needs to be around £25K or less.

A The Skoda Elroq is the obvious candidate, but is very noticeably longer than the Karoq. There's the Renault Scenic E, but I've serious concerns about build quality (work with a Zoe owner). A Tesla model Y would be affordable, but not sure I could cope with doing everything through the screen (nor do I want to support Musk in any way). A BMW i4 doesn't really have the load height, and BMW and Audi SUV models are too expensive in electric. There's a lot of electric cars around that *might* be OK if the range was longer, but their LR variants aren't good enough. A petrol-electric hybrid might do it, but many seem overly complicated with the disadvantages of both sides.

Any suggestions, based on my criteria above?
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Look at Seat too. Virtually identical to Skoda and VW.

Also, I have a Honda CR-V that I would heartily recommend. It has low profile tyres and alloys and the roads here in rural France are not good. It is also used off road for fishing so don't be overly concerned about that aspect. The HR-V might suit too.
 
Don’t think the Skoda will do that range.

Tesla is amazing though so try one.
 
cambsno said:
Don’t think the Skoda will do that range.
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Elroq will definitely do that range in real-world, at least partly thanks to the heat pump. I've been in a Tesla and my dislike was almost instant.

Clive K said:
Look at Seat too. Virtually identical to Skoda and VW.
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They seem to be using the Cupra name for EVs here. There's a big one, but it's sporty and expensive.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Elroq will definitely do that range in real-world, at least partly thanks to the heat pump. I've been in a Tesla and my dislike was almost instant.



They seem to be using the Cupra name for EVs here. There's a big one, but it's sporty and expensive.
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I was thinking of their last diesel models.
 
Guaranteed 300+ in the cold is really around the limits of modern tech (or rather around the limits of what they are prepared to fit in a car sized object for a reasonable price)

Polestar test done off theirs at over 400 so maybe 300+ is achievable in the cold. Last time I tried one of was absolutely fine. I liked the Google interface and everything else reminded me of a Cortina. They do extended test drives.

But I've just seen your budget. No, that's not going to happen. Tesla S will do all of that and delight you every day apart from the range.
 
@ancient_mariner

If 300 mile winter range is mandatory then it’s likely that an EV is not for you, range is the one thing I compromised on to buy an EV (working in the basis in the 90s, I managed perfectly well with cars that would only do 220-270 miles in a tank).

I’d throw the Volvo XC60 into your mix. I’ve just sold one (2021) that would have met your criteria (with the exception that it was a 2WD model, it was traded in for 2K under your budget (but was very low mileage), so a 4WD variant should be in reach. It was faultless (supremely comfortable) and even though it was a Petrol Hybrid (B5 variant), it never felt short of power and would return over 40mpg on a long run and in fact averaged 38mpg in our entire ownership.

One thing to be aware of is that most petrol hybrids (self charging variety) do not have the battery heat management of a full BEV and can considerable reduce the charge cycles in the battery system leading to premature battery failure.

My personal view (now after doing a lot of research) is that if the vehicle is a long term keeper, is either go old school diesel or full EV, I wouldn’t be buying a hybrid or a PHEV and running it that financially dangerous 8-10 year old period.

I also wouldn’t dismiss BEV based on a 300 mile winter range
 
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Thanks gents. Just to say, the replacement doesn't need 4 wheel drive, only mentioned it because that's what I have now.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Currently looking for a possible replacement for our Skoda Karoq diesel 4X4, ideally 1-2 years old.

It could be a *little* smaller, but I'd quite like something with a good load space to allow us to carry large items occasionally.
I'd like a diesel with a manual gearbox not auto) but those seem to be getting rarer, and the Karoq diesel went out of production in 2023.
I'd quite like an EV in some ways, but it must do a minimum real-world 300+ miles on a charge in the winter.
If possible it would be nice to have something that didn't look like a housebrick on wheels or worse (the Ariya is desperately repulsive).
Must be available with non-sports tyres & rims, because the country roads here are so heavily damaged.
Needs to handle reasonably well because I have to do real driving, and also be comfortable enough for 500 mile 12 hour journeys.
Needs to be around £25K or less.

A The Skoda Elroq is the obvious candidate, but is very noticeably longer than the Karoq. There's the Renault Scenic E, but I've serious concerns about build quality (work with a Zoe owner). A Tesla model Y would be affordable, but not sure I could cope with doing everything through the screen (nor do I want to support Musk in any way). A BMW i4 doesn't really have the load height, and BMW and Audi SUV models are too expensive in electric. There's a lot of electric cars around that *might* be OK if the range was longer, but their LR variants aren't good enough. A petrol-electric hybrid might do it, but many seem overly complicated with the disadvantages of both sides.

Any suggestions, based on my criteria above?
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one of these probably has everything apart from the range

New & Used Cars for Sale - Autotrader UK

www.autotrader.co.uk www.autotrader.co.uk

my wife has one and it's been pretty good over the last 22,000 miles
it's 200 mile real world range hasn't really been a problem we've been all over the country in it, a trip to Hastings from greater Manchester requires a stop n charge around oxford which by then we need a break anyway

i don't see many about and can't really compare notes with other owners but it is Toyota so you can be fairly confident it's gonna be reliable
 
ancient_mariner said:
Currently looking for a possible replacement for our Skoda Karoq diesel 4X4, ideally 1-2 years old.

It could be a *little* smaller, but I'd quite like something with a good load space to allow us to carry large items occasionally.
I'd like a diesel with a manual gearbox not auto) but those seem to be getting rarer, and the Karoq diesel went out of production in 2023.
I'd quite like an EV in some ways, but it must do a minimum real-world 300+ miles on a charge in the winter.
If possible it would be nice to have something that didn't look like a housebrick on wheels or worse (the Ariya is desperately repulsive).
Must be available with non-sports tyres & rims, because the country roads here are so heavily damaged.
Needs to handle reasonably well because I have to do real driving, and also be comfortable enough for 500 mile 12 hour journeys.
Needs to be around £25K or less.

A The Skoda Elroq is the obvious candidate, but is very noticeably longer than the Karoq. There's the Renault Scenic E, but I've serious concerns about build quality (work with a Zoe owner). A Tesla model Y would be affordable, but not sure I could cope with doing everything through the screen (nor do I want to support Musk in any way). A BMW i4 doesn't really have the load height, and BMW and Audi SUV models are too expensive in electric. There's a lot of electric cars around that *might* be OK if the range was longer, but their LR variants aren't good enough. A petrol-electric hybrid might do it, but many seem overly complicated with the disadvantages of both sides.

Any suggestions, based on my criteria above?
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Do you have an upper limit to your budget? There are many great cars with longer range over the 40k mark. That said 300plus miles in winter is going to really restrict your choices, I'm not actually aware on any right now that will do that.
OK Google lists 6 makes and recommends a battery over 80kwh all of them are up in the 'luxury' end of the scale pricewise. https://www.google.com/search?clien...winter+range&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

My own work car, the Nissan Ariya has an 87kwh battery and will do 330 in summer but I had to drive 260 miles overnight (temps from 0 to 5c vareying) last night and had very little power left when I got home. The Ariya isn't the most aerodynamic car though (as you say it's not very pretty), it is very big inside and out.

Whichever route you follow you should take the car for a few days test drive to make sure it matches any quoted figures and if you cannot find one that matches your requirements either change your requirements* or wait a year or so.

* as in why must it be 300 plus miles on one charge, can you not squeeze in a charging stop of 20-30 minutes on your trips? Doing that can increase your car choices enormously.

/edit just saw your budget, no chance you'll get a car to match those specs for that money :(
 
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ancient_mariner said:
I'd quite like an EV in some ways, but it must do a minimum real-world 300+ miles on a charge in the winter.

Needs to be around £25K or less.



Any suggestions, based on my criteria above?
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Nothing will meet that requirement at the moment, especially if your 300 miles is at motorway speeds (which I assume is the case given your 500mile/12 hour comment)

realistically the best you'll get from an suv will be about 3miles/kWh and a saloon about 4. knock off a chunk for winter.

We've had an ev in the household for 10 years now (couple of leafs and currently an mg zs) and currently looking to go all ev, but 300 miles in all conditions is realistically going to need a 100kWh battery.

I'd make the point though that charge speed is worth considering - when you can charge at 150kw + it doesnt take long to add range. These days I find that a 200mile journey in the uk takes 4 or 5 hours so will usually mean at least 1 stop for toilet+coffee. Things like id3/4/5/7 will give decent range and charge speed.

Kia+ hyundai will charge very quickly but at the risk that the iccu goes pop and strands you.
 
The next round of EVs from China will focus heavily on the UK market we will see it growing the dealer networks like BYD and MG and maybe some of the lesser marques might creep in but we will start seeing quality sub 20k cars that with 200 miles plus and fast charging and people will start to relax about the whole range thing.
 
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Why the need for 300 miles + in winter?

If it's just the occasional long trip public charging is pretty good (from a Tesla perspective).
 
I've been seeing a lot of these JAECOO cars around recently, although I've no idea what they are like.
 
Probably worth checking on spares availability with the Chinese brands. Apparently there aren't many spares of any kind, so a minor problem can take a while to sort.
 
One of the reasons for demanding 300 miles is the logistics and timing of our long journeys. It's just over 140 miles to the tunnel driving past Heathrow, and about 160 to Rheims, where we usually stop for the night. Neither leg has time for a stop in it. There's a time constraint that means we can't get there after 9 in the evening, but if we leave at 12:30 in the afternoon we can do the journey OK. To leave earlier will cost an extra half day of leave, which is precious, and to break the journey earlier is less convenient. I'm not willing to be inconvenienced by a short range vehicle, and the >300 mile range is therefore an absolute.

Part of what started this was discussing with a work colleague who owns a 2023 Elroq and recently drove to his parents in Germany and back. He was getting the kind of range I described, so it made me consider the possibility of electric rather than IC. Reviewing vehicles available, I was aware smaller cars were exceeding the 200mile range, and had hoped larger cars were going to be much better, but it seems that for many, a real 220-250 is considered good enough, for now.
 
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ancient_mariner said:
One of the reasons for demanding 300 miles is the logistics and timing of our long journeys. It's just over 140 miles to the tunnel driving past Heathrow, and about 160 to Rheims, where we usually stop for the night. Neither leg has time for a stop in it. There's a time constraint that means we can't get there after 9 in the evening, but if we leave at 12:30 in the afternoon we can do the journey OK. To leave earlier will cost an extra half day of leave, which is precious, and to break the journey earlier is less convenient. I'm not willing to be inconvenienced by a short range vehicle, and the >300 mile range is therefore an absolute.

Part of what started this was discussing with a work colleague who owns a 2023 Elroq and recently drove to his parents in Germany and back. He was getting the kind of range I described, so it made me consider the possibility of electric rather than IC. Reviewing vehicles available, I was aware smaller cars were exceeding the 200mile range, and had hoped larger cars were going to be much better, but it seems that for many, a real 220-250 is considered good enough, for now.
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There's a supercharger after checkin.
 
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