Why are people buying electric cars?

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I believe the only car in the UK capable of battery swap is the Nio range and Nio have said they have no plans to create a network of swapping stations here. They do have some 'Power Swap' stations in Europe but there's only 60 in Germany for example, nowhere near the number needed for a full rollout. As I've said before the idea sounds good but financially crippling for any company trying to set it up.

Luckily the Nio range of cars are also good as a fixed battery car in terms of charging.
 
I'm sure it won't happen now because the legislative initiative was never taken when conditions were more flexible, and now there would be too much resistance.
 
Erty said:
Sure, but where else are you going to go? The only alternative is to buy another car. The exchange model works best when there is only one company (the car supplier) supplying the battery. What reason would they have to let you use someone else's battery when they can lock you in to coming back, time after time, to use their product?
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Is this a bit like buying a lemon ICE car, like a Peugeot...?
 
Erty said:
Sure, but where else are you going to go? The only alternative is to buy another car. The exchange model works best when there is only one company (the car supplier) supplying the battery. What reason would they have to let you use someone else's battery when they can lock you in to coming back, time after time, to use their product?

We see this in cameras where what is essentially the same battery has different connectors on different brands. But camera batteries are tiny, don't burn for hours if they go wrong and are not put into a vehicle that has to comply with all sorts of legislation. If EV batteries were removable, the manufacturers would ensure that only their ones are available.
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There's already quite a lot of different brands of batteries sticking to standardisations and offering their own USP's over others, whether it's AA's etc that have a huge variety of brands and performances yet all fit, proprietary camera batteries that have 3rd party alternatives and whilst not quite the same but in a similar vane we are now seeing power tools brands sharing one battery type across their whole range of the same brand.

I do believe it's unlikely that the UK will ever adapt it, at least not any time soon. But I do find it surprising how resistant some people are about this, especially when they are very same people demanding others to embrace EV's despite similar challenges such as developing the public charging network.
 
Battery swapping is a lot of extra resources and infrastructure compared to just charging the battery in the car. As battery ranges get better it becomes a waste of time as people need to stop for breaks so once you've got a few hours of driving done you should be stopping for around 20 - 30 minutes anyway.
 
srichards said:
Battery swapping is a lot of extra resources and infrastructure compared to just charging the battery in the car. As battery ranges get better it becomes a waste of time as people need to stop for breaks so once you've got a few hours of driving done you should be stopping for around 20 - 30 minutes anyway.
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Public chargers can be very expensive. Although, I've no idea how much battery swapping would cost.

I believe upgrading the grid would be very challenging if everyone were to have EV's.

A lot of people can't charge at home.
 
I went to a talk from <cough> a major vehicle manufacturer recently about how they calculate SatNav. It was interesting because SatNav is a LOT harder for EVs because of charging. It's so hard that they actually precompute "trunking" routes and then join your start and end points on to it.

When we got to ask questions, the tech lead admitted that this meant that on the day that all of Paris decides to go to the south of France for the summer, they will probably all get routed to the same chargers. That's quite annoying if it causes you to queue for a charge (and was all over the press a summer ago), but imagine if you arrive and they tell you "oh, we've run out of charged batteries - could be a few days".....

I can imagine the tech you'd need to charge these as fast as they can and it's big, expensive and and has many moving parts and probably staff. Recharging is much cheaper and provides more manageable pinch points.
 
JonathanRyan said:
I went to a talk from <cough> a major vehicle manufacturer recently about how they calculate SatNav. It was interesting because SatNav is a LOT harder for EVs because of charging. It's so hard that they actually precompute "trunking" routes and then join your start and end points on to it.

When we got to ask questions, the tech lead admitted that this meant that on the day that all of Paris decides to go to the south of France for the summer, they will probably all get routed to the same chargers. That's quite annoying if it causes you to queue for a charge (and was all over the press a summer ago), but imagine if you arrive and they tell you "oh, we've run out of charged batteries - could be a few days".....
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I don't believe that battery swapping would be exclusive to charging. It's simply another option to provide choice.

JonathanRyan said:
I can imagine the tech you'd need to charge these as fast as they can and it's big, expensive and and has many moving parts and probably staff. Recharging is much cheaper and provides more manageable pinch points.
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China seem to be managing. It will be interesting to see if it develops.
 
Rather than employing lots of people to swap over batteries in cars, I'd like to think that in a few years time it would mostly be automated. You pre-book a timed slot (at a fixed price) using the car sat nav or phone app, drive into a booth and then a robot does the work of efficiently swapping out the battery from underneath the car. You then drive off a few minutes later. I'd think you would pay a premium for the fast turn-around, but you would still have the option of home charging or using a charging point if you weren't in so much of a hurry and were taking a break for an hour or two.
 
Battery swapping will never be a thing in the UK.

It's too expensive to set up for the few cars that will be capable of it. And it's an idea that has not kept up with the technology, range is much less of an issue now than when swapping was first mooted and the need to do it has ceased to be.
 
gman said:
I don't believe that battery swapping would be exclusive to charging. It's simply another option to provide choice.
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But....that just doubles the problems. My tech friends with the satnav would have to figure out another whole layer of complexity.

Also, a charging socket on a car is pretty easy. A removable battery could be pretty easy. But adding both is another layer of moving parts. And that's not something that will reduce costs.

I have seen the stories that China are managing fine with replaceables. It's possible that they have a different use pattern of cars that makes it work for them - certainly it's a place that could more easily enforce standardisation on their manufacturers. It's also possible that like many of their recent AI breakthroughs it's more advertising hyperbole than actuality.
 
Steep said:
Battery swapping will never be a thing in the UK.

It's too expensive to set up for the few cars that will be capable of it. And it's an idea that has not kept up with the technology, range is much less of an issue now than when swapping was first mooted and the need to do it has ceased to be.
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its just another topic of conversation the anti EV brigade want to float/promote to persuade folk EVs are bad, there is definitely a crowd in society in the UK forming that hate the tech outright, they are not interested to the point of spreading false propaganda , FB is full of such posts and adds and I feel the ICE Companies probably pay for this agenda bit like in the USA with there silliness arround guns and gun control.
 
JonathanRyan said:
But....that just doubles the problems. My tech friends with the satnav would have to figure out another whole layer of complexity.

Also, a charging socket on a car is pretty easy. A removable battery could be pretty easy. But adding both is another layer of moving parts. And that's not something that will reduce costs.

I have seen the stories that China are managing fine with replaceables. It's possible that they have a different use pattern of cars that makes it work for them - certainly it's a place that could more easily enforce standardisation on their manufacturers. It's also possible that like many of their recent AI breakthroughs it's more advertising hyperbole than actuality.
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Or halves the obstacles.

It really wouldn't be difficult for the satnav to say "would you like to navigate to a charger or swap station". There's already a raft of route options such as avoiding toll roads, motorways etc. I also don't think a removable battery that can also charge would be a huge technical challenge. It's already possible with all the other batteries I listed earlier.

I do accept that countries such as China, America etc would be more suitable for battery swap due to the larger landmass and as the range tech improves it is less important in the UK. However, once again not everyone can charge at home and rapid public charging can be expensive.
 
JonathanRyan said:
But....that just doubles the problems. My tech friends with the satnav would have to figure out another whole layer of complexity.
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It sounds like they just have a very poorly implemented satnav system.
 
Mr Bump said:
its just another topic of conversation the anti EV brigade want to float/promote to persuade folk EVs are bad, there is definitely a crowd in society in the UK forming that hate the tech outright, they are not interested to the point of spreading false propaganda , FB is full of such posts and adds and I feel the ICE Companies probably pay for this agenda bit like in the USA with there silliness arround guns and gun control.
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What on earth are you on about?

gman said:
If battery swapping became widespread in the UK and the swap cost was reasonable, then it would certainly open the door to EV for me.
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The only thing I'm seeing is supposed pro-EV people being very resistant to new tech.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Dunno. It's a pretty significant company. I bet they hired the smartest people they could.

It's possible the problem is harder than you think.
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Some seem to have fixed the problem, though I can't say whether it's hard or not. Google can offer me multiple routes to a destination, parking and shopping information - how difficult is it to add charging information to that? Possibly even live-updated with whether free or in use.
 
srichards said:
Tesla have had automatic routing with chargers for years.
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Yes. I use it every day.

If I were setting up a team to do something similar, I'd probably be interested in hiring some of their crew.

But don't forget that Tesla only got alternative routes very recently. And they only just support 3rd party chargers. The more variables, the more computing power you need.

ancient_mariner said:
Some seem to have fixed the problem, though I can't say whether it's hard or not. Google can offer me multiple routes to a destination, parking and shopping information - how difficult is it to add charging information to that? Possibly even live-updated with whether free or in use.
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It's hard. HTH.

You may not be surprised to learn that like a lot of people I often have to explain to people that what they want is harder than they think and then go and do it. It's not impossible, it will just take time and money.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Yes. I use it every day.

If I were setting up a team to do something similar, I'd probably be interested in hiring some of their crew.

But don't forget that Tesla only got alternative routes very recently. And they only just support 3rd party chargers. The more variables, the more computing power you need.


It's hard. HTH.

You may not be surprised to learn that like a lot of people I often have to explain to people that what they want is harder than they think and then go and do it. It's not impossible, it will just take time and money.
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We do very hard things every day. If someone can do it then someone else can do it too unless it's IP protected. Or license it in.
 
gman said:
From what I've seen, it's similar to a garage lift from the floor and looks to be possible in 60-100 seconds. The other consideration is that swapping batteries mitigates the whole rapid charge to 80% thing (to preserve battery life etc). Instead, you'd get a 100% charged battery that can be charged overnight in advance, thus taking away stress on the grid as well.

I'm looking at the objections, yet China is apparently not only managing it just fine but it's growing as well. I appreciate China has advantages over the Western world due to their political makeup, resources etc, but from a technical point of view it would not appear to be a problem.

The ongoing elephant in the room is the amount of people who cannot charge at home who are currently subject to the high costs of rapid charging. Although like rapid charging, even battery swapping doesn't offer a level playing field because those with solar, home batteries etc will always have the advantage once their ROI goes positive. With ICE we all had to use the petrol station.

If battery swapping became widespread in the UK and the swap cost was reasonable, then it would certainly open the door to EV for me.
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Our friend father has one of the Nero (is it) ones where the battery is swapped and says it’s great.
But I believe this is not a free thing, you pay a monthly fee for a set amount of changes
 
ancient_mariner said:
It would require legislation of the kind that forces Apple to fit USB-C charging or the kind that the Chinese Gov can simply impose. The car makers could not be allowed to lock out others. You would no more be discouraged from buying their car again by this than you would be discouraged from buying a Volkswagen when filling at a Shell garage.

There's no magic in battery tech, only understood engineering and technology. There is no reason why a car maker must be a battery maker too.
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most the batteries are made by Byd and CATL in china
I’m sure I read that come end of this year the Chinese government is implementing stricter regulations on EV’s and batteries making them more stringent than any other country in the world.
 
pmac said:
Our friend father has one of the Nero (is it) ones where the battery is swapped and says it’s great.
But I believe this is not a free thing, you pay a monthly fee for a set amount of changes
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I would never have expected it to be free, that would be a crazy ask! lol

But it has just presented another idea in that it could form part of a sales deal? Buy our car and get 10 free swaps a year sort of thing.
 
pmac said:
Our friend father has one of the Nero (is it) ones where the battery is swapped and says it’s great.
But I believe this is not a free thing, you pay a monthly fee for a set amount of changes
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Nio it must be I think and of course it's not free, nor is he in the UK?

I read that Stellantis are going to be putting swappable batteries in a few of their models, the Fiat 500e was mentioned back in 2023. They opened the first swap station in Madrid this year.
 
Article from last year. I guess it's still in the works.

clearwatt.co.uk

NIO battery swap set to arrive in the UK by 2025

This article explores the concept of battery swapping for electric vehicles (EVs), a method where depleted EV batteries are quickly exchanged for charged ones. It discusses the historical context, technological advancements, and the role of companies like NIO in promoting this technology across...
clearwatt.co.uk clearwatt.co.uk
 
Two new points from the Electric Viking, General Motors slide deeper into trouble, blaming Trump's tarriffs for a loss of $1.1billion.

The second piece of news is GM have also shelved their plans to build a Hydrogen fuel cell production plant.
 
Steep said:
Two new points from the Electric Viking, General Motors slide deeper into trouble, blaming Trump's tarriffs for a loss of $1.1billion.

The second piece of news is GM have also shelved their plans to build a Hydrogen fuel cell production plant.
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huge amounts of auto makers produce there cars in China now, Trump is at war with China so yep Tariffs are even hitting US car makers.
pun.... you couldn't make it up.
 
pmac said:
Our friend father has one of the Nero (is it) ones where the battery is swapped and says it’s great.
But I believe this is not a free thing, you pay a monthly fee for a set amount of changes
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Where is he running this car?
 
Well I was going to leave buying a new car until next year when I retire but I spotted an unmissable deal on one of the cars I liked. Upshot is, I pick up my new MGS5 tomorrow!
It's blue, which I don't particularly like but it was £10,000 off so I will learn to live with it :)
 
We've gone and got a plug-in hybrid.

Mostly because my wife works for a green energy company and she said felt embarrassed turning up in a 3.0 V6 diesel.

But our initial experience was pretty poor. We didn't have a charger at home so were forced to use public chargers for some time. Many weren't working, some were listed as public but were, in fact, private - which led to us being kicked out of somewhere while trying to work out why we couldn't get it to work.

I think that currently I see the use case for small EVs. The type that do the local trips around towns for example. But having had limited exposure to trying to use chargers for longer trips, the infrastructure isn't there if people were forced into EVs tomorrow. Luckily there's resistance, or it would all fall apart.

Luckily for us for the first few weeks, the car also runs fully petrol or we'd have been stuck.

Last year, my wife took part in an EV rally with her company, and the ID Buzz she was driving for a few days also proved problematic. Not the car, but trying to charge it. One charger she plugged it into for three hours only gave the car 1% more charge. Which, when she was already down to 8%, wasn't great.
 
Kell said:
But having had limited exposure to trying to use chargers for longer trips, the infrastructure isn't there if people were forced into EVs tomorrow. Luckily there's resistance, or it would all fall apart.
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You understand that statement makes no sense right? People are not going to be 'forced' into using EV tomorrow so say the infrastructure isn't there is pointless.
Add to which the car you chose isn't suitable for long trips using the battery, though if you do want to use it that way your charging stops will all be pretty short. PHEVs are petrol cars with a small battery meant to get you round town etc.

Infrastructure for EV charging is keeping up with and surpassing EV sales so there is no issue. The Government just made it a thousand times easier for everyone to access chargers by 'forcing' the adoption of contactless payment. No more worrying about whether the charger you are at will accept your rfid card.

Matter of interest and you don't have to answer ofc, which part of the UK was the rally you mentioned in?
 
A mate has a PHEV and he charges it at home via a 3 pin 13A socket since that uses the solar power off his roof rather than the grid. His wife charges her BEV overnight on cheap rate 'leccy through their "proper" charger.
 
Of course it’s not going to happen overnight, but people are being forced into doing it. That's what the net zero emissions targets are all about.

Manufacturers are ditching ICE and some models are or will be EV only. There is less choice if you want a traditional engine and of course, we're all being 'encouraged' rather than forced currently. But the reasons they're putting back the zero emissions transition is due to lack of interest and lack of infrastructure.

What I meant by my statement is that if everyone that made the choice to buy a new car over the last five years (for example) had bought an EV we wouldn’t be able to cope.

The chargers at our local Shell are almost always ‘not in use’. And there are only two compared to 10 petrol/diesel pumps. Many require you to have a specific app pre-installed in order to use (I tried using a BP one by downloading the app on site and could not get it to work - getting caught in an endless loop of password resets). The plug in (3-pin) charger that was supplied with the car kept tripping the house electrics.

I'm really not against them, but found that first few weeks of ownership very eye-opening.

We now have a charger on the house which is normally fed by our solar panels and only charges the car at specific times.

As for the EV rally, it was this one so took in a lot of UK. While the event itself was well-organised and the chargers en-route all worked, my wife took delivery of the car a few days early and that's where the problems lay. We drove (from high Wycombe) up to the start via our friends in Chapel-en-le-Frith. The chargers that gave out 1% in three hours were in Buxton. And the charger we were directed to that turned out to be private turned out to be at some sort of Toyota HQ - though I can't remember exactly where now.
 
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Kell said:
Of course it’s not going to happen overnight, but people are being forced into doing it.

Manufacturers are ditching ICE and some models are or will be EV only.

What I meant by my statement is that if everyone that made the choice to buy a new car over the last five years (for example) had bought an EV we wouldn’t be able to cope.

The chargers at our local Shell are almost always ‘not in use’. Many require you to have a specific app pre-installed in order to use (I tried using a BP one by downloading the app on site and could not get it to work - getting caught in an endless loop of password resets).

I'm really not against them, but found that first few weeks of ownership very eye-opening.

As for the EV rally, it was this one so took in a lot of UK. While the event was well-organised and the chargers en-route all worked, my wife took delivery of the car a few days early and that's where the problems lay. The chargers that gave out 1% in three hours were in Buxton. And the charger we were directed to that turned out to be private turned out to be at some sort of Toyota HQ
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It would go hand in hand with installs - I bet if you asked the companies, they match installs to cars sales and projections. No point building capacity for 1m cars if only 100k are due to be sold and vice versa.
 
cambsno said:
It would go hand in hand with installs - I bet if you asked the companies, they match installs to cars sales and projections. No point building capacity for 1m cars if only 100k are due to be sold and vice versa.
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You say that, but I'd say if you asked potential buyers, most would cite lack of infrastructure as a big reason not to make the switch.

If governments want to encourage consumers to invest in EVs, then they should show willing and make the first move.

If you've watched Long Way Up, then Rivian had to install a whole network of chargers throughout the length of South America to make the trip possible. I know that's a very different situation to the UK, but begins to demonstrate the power that oil companies still hold and how difficult it is to convince people it's the right thing to do.
 
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Kell said:
You say that, but I'd say if you asked potential buyers, most would cite lack of infrastructure as a big reason not to make the switch.

If governments want to encourage consumers to invest in EVs, then they should show willing and make the first move.
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I'd bet every one of them who said that were vastly overestimating what they would actually need. The UKs problem has not been infrastructure but connectivity, certainly in England what help people up was lack of easy acces to existing chargers. Having to have 4 or 5 RFID cards or apps to be sure of getting a charge where you wanted to, the chargers were there you just had to make sure you had the right kit to use them.

The car I just bought will do 300 miles and I expect never to have to use public charging except for the odd rare occasion I want to drive further and this is the experience that the vast majority of EV drivers have,
 
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