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This has been pointed out many times, but still gets raised, like a scratched record.
and please use their services
AndrewFlannigan
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Thank you for, as my American "outlaws" say, "teaching me to suck eggs".
My point is that the overall tax take is being reduced by the non-collection of fuel duty on electric cars, as well as by the "encouragements" of low or no VED on the same and the "discounts" on purchase prices. That reduction will need to be replaced somehow, especially in the current financial climate.
While the theory is that VED on electric cars will rise to the same level as other cars, there are so many nooks and crannies that many electric cars will continue to avoid VED...
Vehicle tax for electric, zero and low emission vehicles
How the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) changes affect your vehicle.
On top of this, the loss of fuel duty appears to be a case of "don't bother me with facts".
its more that no one validates the output of ChatGTP - everyone assumes what it produces must be the absolute truthWell, it appears quite a few of the EV liking people don't like Chat GPT there
According to VW UK ID 3 starts at £30,860.00, base model Golf £28,150.00
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gman
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You weren't wrong. His latter comment was misleading.
This appears to be the mental block with many.
cambsno
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Well, it appears quite a few of the EV liking people don't like Chat GPT there
Well, for a start it has stuff that is wildly inaccurate, 7.9p v 35p charging? Its not about liking EV its about having the facts right.
Chat GPT is not great, when asked about my local team (Cambridge United) it was at best 30% correct! One of our players expected to score heavily was our keeper!!
LeeRatters
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You are both correct. I don't like Chat GPT and most of this AI stuff to be fair.
It also got the average cost of petrol wrong too
Rory Sutherland did a great piece about reversing the car market and what if EVs had come first and then ICE vehicles had been introduced and comparing what would have been most likely an inferior product in most characteristics.
Realistically it seems to be that the two main things that EVs get critiqued over is
1) like for like pricing
2) range on a charge
The pricing disparity, like with everything will come down or at least the price arbitrage will diminish
even if range on a charge doesn't ever meet the ICE equivalent what needs to be established is what percent of drivers realistically regularly do 200+ a day therefore what is the actual requirement (number of days per year) for cars to be able to do 400 miles on a single tank. Society nowadays what to be able to say their purchases have the ability to do things rather than the necessity that they need from the things. Given that on average vehicles spend 20 hrs a day stationary and the average distance driven each day is 25 miles...
Also EVs are becoming part of the energy revolution. More and more people are shifting from the mindset of thinking that they just want energy when they flick the switch to what Octopus have started to do with Kraken Technology and modularise Energy use. More and more people that are buying domestic Solar PV arrays coupled with Battery storage are benefitting from price beneficial demand profiling incentives. This will only increase as the drive to add 50GW of offshore wind by 2030 occurs, there will be excess supply overnight when traditional demand drops so huge price incentives to increase demand (ie charge EVs overnight) to prevent constraints in generation.
Realistically it seems to be that the two main things that EVs get critiqued over is
1) like for like pricing
2) range on a charge
The pricing disparity, like with everything will come down or at least the price arbitrage will diminish
even if range on a charge doesn't ever meet the ICE equivalent what needs to be established is what percent of drivers realistically regularly do 200+ a day therefore what is the actual requirement (number of days per year) for cars to be able to do 400 miles on a single tank. Society nowadays what to be able to say their purchases have the ability to do things rather than the necessity that they need from the things. Given that on average vehicles spend 20 hrs a day stationary and the average distance driven each day is 25 miles...
Also EVs are becoming part of the energy revolution. More and more people are shifting from the mindset of thinking that they just want energy when they flick the switch to what Octopus have started to do with Kraken Technology and modularise Energy use. More and more people that are buying domestic Solar PV arrays coupled with Battery storage are benefitting from price beneficial demand profiling incentives. This will only increase as the drive to add 50GW of offshore wind by 2030 occurs, there will be excess supply overnight when traditional demand drops so huge price incentives to increase demand (ie charge EVs overnight) to prevent constraints in generation.
Kell
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In fairness, it does say based on 2023 prices. The gap is closing, but certainly the last time I looked seriously at the price differential, it was around 10k. We quite fancied an ID3.
Kell
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The thing about all these AI bots is that you're free to ask the same question with new parameters. I asked again, and told it to take the off-peak charging into account. Aslo, interestingly, something the previous version didn't seem to take into account is that as of next year VED will apply.
This is a fascinating and highly relevant comparison, especially with the rapid evolution of EV technology and energy prices. To provide an impartial and comprehensive analysis, I'll choose a popular and well-understood model available in both petrol and BEV variants in the UK: the Vauxhall Corsa.
I'll compare the Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol) with the Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV). These are mid-range trims that offer a good balance of features and are widely available.
Assumptions and Disclaimers:
1. Initial Purchase Price (On-the-Road - OTR)
Cost Comparison Table (Annualised Averages)
Wait! The BEV looks more expensive annually! This is primarily due to the higher depreciation and the initial purchase price difference. Let's look at the cumulative costs to find the offset point.
Cumulative Cost Analysis (Including Initial Purchase & Home Charger)
We need to add the initial purchase price and the home charger cost (for the EV) to the annual running costs.
Scenario: 100% Home Charging (Off-Peak)
Analysis of Offset Point:
Based on these calculations, with the current price differential and the change in VED for EVs from April 2025, the BEV Corsa does not offset its increased purchase price and higher depreciation within a typical 5-year ownership period for an average UK driver, even with 100% off-peak home charging. In fact, the gap widens over time due to the higher absolute depreciation of the more expensive EV.
Why is this the case?
If we use the blended charging cost (£407.55 annually) instead of 100% home charging, the BEV's annual running cost increases to £6,607.55. This would make the offset point even further away, or indeed, mean it never occurs within a reasonable ownership period under these assumptions.
Conclusion on Offset Point:
Based on the detailed analysis of the Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol) vs. Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV) in the UK as of July 2025, with average mileage and considering the VED changes, the increased price of the EV is unlikely to be offset by lower running costs within a typical 5-7 year ownership period. The higher initial purchase price and subsequent higher absolute depreciation are the dominant factors preventing the BEV from becoming cheaper overall, despite significant fuel and minor servicing savings.
This highlights that for a direct like-for-like comparison of a specific model where the EV variant carries a substantial premium, the financial case for the EV is currently driven more by factors like environmental benefits, driving experience, and access to urban zones, rather than a clear total cost of ownership advantage for the average driver. The market is dynamic, however, and this balance could shift rapidly with changes in vehicle pricing, energy costs, and government incentives.
This is a fascinating and highly relevant comparison, especially with the rapid evolution of EV technology and energy prices. To provide an impartial and comprehensive analysis, I'll choose a popular and well-understood model available in both petrol and BEV variants in the UK: the Vauxhall Corsa.
I'll compare the Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol) with the Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV). These are mid-range trims that offer a good balance of features and are widely available.
Assumptions and Disclaimers:
- Date: Thursday, July 31, 2025. This is important as prices for fuel, electricity, and cars can fluctuate.
- Mileage: Average UK annual mileage of 7,400 miles (according to Department for Transport data, though this can vary).
- Ownership Period: We'll look at costs over 3, 5, and 7 years to see the long-term impact.
- Depreciation: This is the biggest variable and hardest to predict, but I'll use current trends and expert predictions.
- Insurance: Highly individual, so I'll use a representative average.
- Maintenance: Based on manufacturer recommendations and general market trends.
- Electricity Prices: 7.9p/kWh (off-peak home charging) and a blended public charging rate.
- Petrol Prices: Average UK price as of late 2024/early 2025 projections.
- Interest Rates: Assumed if financed, but for simplicity, we'll focus on total cost of ownership.
- Impartiality: I will present data and calculations without bias towards either powertrain.
1. Initial Purchase Price (On-the-Road - OTR)
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol):
- Estimated OTR Price (July 2025): £23,500 (Based on current prices + slight inflation)
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV):
- Estimated OTR Price (July 2025): £32,000 (Based on current prices + slight inflation, noting the gap is narrowing)
- Initial Price Difference: £8,500 (BEV is more expensive)
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol):
- Official WLTP Combined: 52.3 MPG (5.4 L/100km)
- Real-world average: 45 MPG (6.3 L/100km)
- Annual Mileage: 7,400 miles
- Annual Fuel Consumption: 7,400 miles / 45 MPG = 164.4 gallons
- 1 gallon = 4.546 litres. So, 164.4 gallons * 4.546 L/gallon = 747 litres
- Estimated Petrol Price (July 2025): £1.65/litre (based on current trends and projections)
- Annual Petrol Cost: 747 litres * £1.65/litre = £1,232.55
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV):
- Official WLTP Range: 246 miles (396 km)
- Real-world average efficiency: 4.0 miles/kWh (or 15 kWh/100km)
- Annual Mileage: 7,400 miles
- Annual Energy Consumption: 7,400 miles / 4.0 miles/kWh = 1,850 kWh
- Charging Scenario 1: 100% Home Charging (Off-Peak)
- Electricity Price: 7.9p/kWh (£0.079/kWh)
- Annual Home Charging Cost: 1,850 kWh * £0.079/kWh = £146.15
- Charging Scenario 2: Blended Home (70%) & Public (30%) Charging
- Home Charging (70%): 1,850 kWh * 0.70 = 1,295 kWh
- Public Charging (30%): 1,850 kWh * 0.30 = 555 kWh
- Average Public Charging Price (Rapid/Fast): £0.55/kWh (This is a blended average, can vary wildly)
- Cost Home: 1,295 kWh * £0.079/kWh = £102.30
- Cost Public: 555 kWh * £0.55/kWh = £305.25
- Annual Blended Charging Cost: £102.30 + £305.25 = £407.55
- For the comparison, we will primarily use the 100% Home Charging (Off-Peak) scenario as per the prompt, but acknowledge the blended cost.
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol):
- More moving parts, oil changes, spark plugs, filters, etc.
- Estimated Annual Service Cost: £250 - £350 (averaged over a few years, including minor and major services)
- Average Annual Service Cost: £300
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV):
- Fewer moving parts, no oil changes, simpler drivetrain. Focus on brakes (less wear due to regen), tyres, cabin filters, software updates.
- Estimated Annual Service Cost: £150 - £250
- Average Annual Service Cost: £200
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol):
- First year based on CO2, then standard rate. For a new car, likely £180 for the standard rate from year 2 onwards.
- Annual Road Tax: £180
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV):
- Currently £0 VED. (Note: From April 2025, EVs will pay VED, but the prompt is July 2025, so this will apply).
- From April 2025, EVs will pay the lowest first-year rate (£10 for cars registered between 1 March 2001 and 31 March 2017, or £0 for cars registered from 1 April 2017), and then from the second year onwards, they will pay the standard rate, which is currently £180.
- Annual Road Tax (from April 2025): £180 (This significantly changes the equation from previous years).
- Highly variable based on driver age, location, no-claims bonus, etc.
- Generally, EVs have been slightly more expensive to insure due to higher repair costs and newer technology, but this gap is closing.
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol): Estimated Annual Insurance: £650
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV): Estimated Annual Insurance: £700
- This is the single largest cost of car ownership and the most difficult to predict accurately.
- Historically, EVs depreciated faster, but this trend is reversing as demand grows and battery technology improves.
- For a Corsa, after 3 years/22,200 miles:
- Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol): Expected to retain ~55-60% of its value.
- Loss: £23,500 * (1 - 0.57) = £10,105 over 3 years.
- Annual Depreciation: £3,368
- Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV): Expected to retain ~50-55% of its value. While improving, the higher initial cost still means a larger absolute loss.
- Loss: £32,000 * (1 - 0.52) = £15,360 over 3 years.
- Annual Depreciation: £5,120
- Note: Over 5-7 years, the percentage retention might converge more, but the absolute difference in initial cost will still lead to a higher absolute depreciation for the EV.
- Home Charger Installation: For the BEV, an initial cost of £800-£1,200 (after any grants, if available, which are largely gone for private individuals). We'll average this at £1,000. This is a one-off cost.
- Congestion Charges/ULEZ: BEVs are exempt from many city charges (e.g., London ULEZ/Congestion Charge), which can save significant money for urban drivers. This is highly specific to individual use. For this general comparison, we won't factor it in as a universal cost.
- Breakdown Cover: Similar for both.
- Tyres: Potentially slightly higher wear on BEV due to instant torque and heavier weight, but modern tyres are designed for this. We'll assume similar costs for simplicity.
Cost Comparison Table (Annualised Averages)
| Cost Category | Corsa Petrol (1.2 Turbo GS) | Corsa Electric (GS) - 100% Home Charging | Corsa Electric (GS) - 70/30 Blended Charging |
|---|---|---|---|
| Initial Purchase | £23,500 | £32,000 | £32,000 |
| Home Charger (Year 1) | N/A | £1,000 (one-off) | £1,000 (one-off) |
| Annual Fuel/Energy | £1,232.55 | £146.15 | £407.55 |
| Annual Servicing | £300 | £200 | £200 |
| Annual Road Tax | £180 | £180 | £180 |
| Annual Insurance | £650 | £700 | £700 |
| Annual Depreciation | £3,368 | £5,120 | £5,120 |
| Total Annual Running Cost (excl. initial purchase) | £5,730.55 | £6,346.15 | £6,607.55 |
Cumulative Cost Analysis (Including Initial Purchase & Home Charger)
We need to add the initial purchase price and the home charger cost (for the EV) to the annual running costs.
Scenario: 100% Home Charging (Off-Peak)
| Year | Corsa Petrol Cumulative Cost | Corsa Electric Cumulative Cost | Difference (Petrol - EV) |
|---|---|---|---|
| Year 0 (Purchase) | £23,500 | £32,000 + £1,000 = £33,000 | -£9,500 |
| Year 1 | £23,500 + £5,730.55 = £29,230.55 | £33,000 + £6,346.15 = £39,346.15 | -£10,115.60 |
| Year 2 | £29,230.55 + £5,730.55 = £34,961.10 | £39,346.15 + £6,346.15 = £45,692.30 | -£10,731.20 |
| Year 3 | £34,961.10 + £5,730.55 = £40,691.65 | £45,692.30 + £6,346.15 = £52,038.45 | -£11,346.80 |
| Year 4 | £40,691.65 + £5,730.55 = £46,422.20 | £52,038.45 + £6,346.15 = £58,384.60 | -£11,962.40 |
| Year 5 | £46,422.20 + £5,730.55 = £52,152.75 | £58,384.60 + £6,346.15 = £64,730.75 | -£12,578.00 |
Based on these calculations, with the current price differential and the change in VED for EVs from April 2025, the BEV Corsa does not offset its increased purchase price and higher depreciation within a typical 5-year ownership period for an average UK driver, even with 100% off-peak home charging. In fact, the gap widens over time due to the higher absolute depreciation of the more expensive EV.
Why is this the case?
- High Initial Price Difference: £8,500 is a significant hurdle.
- Depreciation: While EV residual values are improving, the higher starting price means the absolute monetary loss is still greater than for the cheaper petrol equivalent. This is the dominant factor.
- VED Change: The removal of £0 VED for EVs from April 2025 significantly reduces one of the key financial advantages.
- Narrowing Fuel Cost Gap (in relative terms): While the percentage saving on fuel is huge for the EV, the absolute saving (£1,232.55 - £146.15 = £1,086.40 annually) is not enough to overcome the initial price and depreciation difference, especially when spread over the higher total cost.
- Higher Mileage: If the annual mileage was significantly higher (e.g., 15,000-20,000 miles), the fuel savings would accumulate much faster, potentially offsetting the cost over a longer period.
- Significant Price Drops for EVs: If the OTR price of the Corsa Electric dropped to be much closer to the petrol version (e.g., within £3,000-£4,000), the offset point would come much sooner.
- Higher Petrol Prices: A substantial increase in petrol prices (e.g., £2.00+/litre) would make the fuel savings more impactful.
- Lower Electricity Prices: Further reductions in off-peak electricity rates would also help.
- Better EV Residual Values: If the Corsa Electric held its value significantly better than the petrol version, this would close the depreciation gap.
- Specific Use Cases: Drivers who regularly pay city congestion charges or ULEZ fees would see immediate and substantial savings that are not factored into this general comparison.
If we use the blended charging cost (£407.55 annually) instead of 100% home charging, the BEV's annual running cost increases to £6,607.55. This would make the offset point even further away, or indeed, mean it never occurs within a reasonable ownership period under these assumptions.
Conclusion on Offset Point:
Based on the detailed analysis of the Vauxhall Corsa 1.2 Turbo GS (Petrol) vs. Vauxhall Corsa Electric GS (BEV) in the UK as of July 2025, with average mileage and considering the VED changes, the increased price of the EV is unlikely to be offset by lower running costs within a typical 5-7 year ownership period. The higher initial purchase price and subsequent higher absolute depreciation are the dominant factors preventing the BEV from becoming cheaper overall, despite significant fuel and minor servicing savings.
This highlights that for a direct like-for-like comparison of a specific model where the EV variant carries a substantial premium, the financial case for the EV is currently driven more by factors like environmental benefits, driving experience, and access to urban zones, rather than a clear total cost of ownership advantage for the average driver. The market is dynamic, however, and this balance could shift rapidly with changes in vehicle pricing, energy costs, and government incentives.
The rate at which the energy revolution is changing means that often any comparison done is out of date within 6 months.
Kell
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Without wishing to labour the point here, there are considerable upsides to EV ownership. For those of us who are actually trying to make an effort to reduce our footprint so that our kids can inherit an earth that isn't fecked.
I recycle as much as possible, even washing out plastic pots. But I liken EV to soft plastic. Everyone knows they should recycle it, but it's very often hard to do so - certainly a lot more difficult than hard plastics. Most councils do not offer kerbside recycling, so it needs to be taken to a specific recycling bin. I've not managed to locate one of these near me and I'm not prepared to make a special trip to drop it off. So I want to recycle it, I know I should recycle it, but it's too hard to do. If the govt made it easier to do, then I'd do it.
And this is where I feel we are with EVs. Many people think they probably should do it, even if they don't really want to, but things like additional cost, and fear (actual or fictional) of the ability to charge easily is putting them off. To really sell people on the idea, then you need to persuade them that it's easier to do. People will always do something that's easier - ever heard of the desire path phenomenon.
For people that can afford to do so then maybe they're willing to absorb that cost. But for many that current additional cost of ownership puts the cars out of reach. So they either have to come down a sector (eg buy a VW Polo rather than a Golf) or move to a cheaper brand.
I fully admit, I'm a car snob, I wouldn't have many of those Chinese brands if you paid me to take them. We worked on the launch of a new Range Rover competitor EV a little while ago, and even then (2 years ago) the data showed that there were 200 new EV car brands annually. They won't all survive and I would also worry about long-term warranties buying from a manufacturer that's sprung up out of nowhere.
For the sake of coming clean, it makes absolutely no sense to attempt to charge our car (an Audi Q5 55TFSI-e) anywhere but at home - not ounless you're going somewhere and can leave it to charge. It only has a 14.5kW battery to augment the petrol engine, so will only do 25 miles in full EV mode.
And it only charges at 7.4kWh so takes two hours to fully charge. Though it used to take all night when using the 3-pin charger. You can't realistically stop a journey and sit for two hours to get an additional 25 miles.
Where it benefits from the battery is that you can go into ULEZ zones and, where possible, for shorter journeys in town we do use it in full EV mode. But the real benefit is improved performance. When I was a kid a car that would do 0-60 in 5 seconds was legendary. To think of a 2,666kg car doing it is crazy.
In conclusion, our initial taste of EV ownership (an extended weekend with an ID buzz) was enough to convince us that an EV car was great, but the experience wasn't. We weren't fully sold, which I guess is why we didn't go fully EV.
I recycle as much as possible, even washing out plastic pots. But I liken EV to soft plastic. Everyone knows they should recycle it, but it's very often hard to do so - certainly a lot more difficult than hard plastics. Most councils do not offer kerbside recycling, so it needs to be taken to a specific recycling bin. I've not managed to locate one of these near me and I'm not prepared to make a special trip to drop it off. So I want to recycle it, I know I should recycle it, but it's too hard to do. If the govt made it easier to do, then I'd do it.
And this is where I feel we are with EVs. Many people think they probably should do it, even if they don't really want to, but things like additional cost, and fear (actual or fictional) of the ability to charge easily is putting them off. To really sell people on the idea, then you need to persuade them that it's easier to do. People will always do something that's easier - ever heard of the desire path phenomenon.
For people that can afford to do so then maybe they're willing to absorb that cost. But for many that current additional cost of ownership puts the cars out of reach. So they either have to come down a sector (eg buy a VW Polo rather than a Golf) or move to a cheaper brand.
I fully admit, I'm a car snob, I wouldn't have many of those Chinese brands if you paid me to take them. We worked on the launch of a new Range Rover competitor EV a little while ago, and even then (2 years ago) the data showed that there were 200 new EV car brands annually. They won't all survive and I would also worry about long-term warranties buying from a manufacturer that's sprung up out of nowhere.
For the sake of coming clean, it makes absolutely no sense to attempt to charge our car (an Audi Q5 55TFSI-e) anywhere but at home - not ounless you're going somewhere and can leave it to charge. It only has a 14.5kW battery to augment the petrol engine, so will only do 25 miles in full EV mode.
And it only charges at 7.4kWh so takes two hours to fully charge. Though it used to take all night when using the 3-pin charger. You can't realistically stop a journey and sit for two hours to get an additional 25 miles.
Where it benefits from the battery is that you can go into ULEZ zones and, where possible, for shorter journeys in town we do use it in full EV mode. But the real benefit is improved performance. When I was a kid a car that would do 0-60 in 5 seconds was legendary. To think of a 2,666kg car doing it is crazy.
In conclusion, our initial taste of EV ownership (an extended weekend with an ID buzz) was enough to convince us that an EV car was great, but the experience wasn't. We weren't fully sold, which I guess is why we didn't go fully EV.
cambsno
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I didnt get an EV due to the greenness - for me it was about seeing what new tech was about and hearing that EVs can be a lot faster. I drove the ID4 (Tiguan style) and while ok, was overpriced for what it was, and didnt feel that fast. ID3 seemed a lot better and quite fun. Then I drove the Tesla. Love the layout with just one big screen. The performance even in the base model is something else, 0-60 in under 6 seconds, I am not aware of any new car, under 40k with similar performance that is not an EV. Its the power delivery too, smooth and fast throughout. Makes overtaking a dream and much safer
Kell
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The performance (in a straight line) of our current Q5 is better than our old Q5 (a 3.0 V6 diesel) at around 5.2 seconds 0-60 v 6.5.
But the old one was undoubtedly better to drive (and that's saying something as that was a bit like steering a pig using its tail). The weight of this one in corners is horrendous.
Good for overtaking. Good for beating people away from the lights, but not great on twisty country roads.
Thanks for the clarification but it does appear to be a misconception amongst plenty of people regarding the spending allocation of various forms of taxation.Thank you for, as my American "outlaws" say, "teaching me to suck eggs".
My point is that the overall tax take is being reduced by the non-collection of fuel duty on electric cars, as well as by the "encouragements" of low or no VED on the same and the "discounts" on purchase prices. That reduction will need to be replaced somehow, especially in the current financial climate.
While the theory is that VED on electric cars will rise to the same level as other cars, there are so many nooks and crannies that many electric cars will continue to avoid VED...
Vehicle tax for electric, zero and low emission vehicles
How the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) changes affect your vehicle.www.gov.uk
On top of this, the loss of fuel duty appears to be a case of "don't bother me with facts".
Governments often use taxation as a form of behavioral change. It's not uncommon to see some form of "pump priming" to encourage take up as you highlighted such as low VED. However once a certain level of behaviour has been reached it's not unusual to see taxation begin to be increased. Your link confirms increases to VED including the expensive vehicle charge.
I fully accept that fuel duty take will decrease as EV use increases. How that is balanced by other forms of taxation to fill any gap is down to the government of the day. However what is clear, when there is a policy to encourage the use of EVs there will be a financial incentives to do so compared to ICE vehicles
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Thank you for, as my American "outlaws" say, "teaching me to suck eggs".
My point is that the overall tax take is being reduced by the non-collection of fuel duty on electric cars, as well as by the "encouragements" of low or no VED on the same and the "discounts" on purchase prices. That reduction will need to be replaced somehow, especially in the current financial climate.
While the theory is that VED on electric cars will rise to the same level as other cars, there are so many nooks and crannies that many electric cars will continue to avoid VED...
Vehicle tax for electric, zero and low emission vehicles
How the Vehicle Excise Duty (VED) changes affect your vehicle.
On top of this, the loss of fuel duty appears to be a case of "don't bother me with facts".
Facts?
So, losing some of 0.7% of tax income. Maybe 0.2%?
I'd imagine there are bigger changes in tax income elsewhere...
Thats the issue with PHEVs. You say "You can't realistically stop a journey and sit for two hours to get an additional 25 miles.". PHEVs are great if used as a combination vehicle where they can pootle to the shops and back or to the local xyz or the school run, which is the sort of distance the average vehicle does in a day, 6 out of 7 days a week and be using the EV element Then when you want to do the long journey or motorway where ICE engines are probably at their most efficient not doing low gear start stop you can/ The problem is when people buy them to do the predominant long journeys, they become less efficient as you're just hauling around the battery drive train and not really using it so its just additional redundant weight.
AndrewFlannigan
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Which, I think, is the problem.
If something is a good idea, then it should stand up on its own two feet (or, in this case, four wheels). If the government thinks it can only bring a change about, by bribing people, then it clearly isn't ready. Worse, there are other fuels that can provide zero emisions, Hydrogen being one relatively obvious candidate.
I think this is just another example of incompetent politicians falling for the lies of bent barrow boys.
cambsno
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So it does this by putting huge taxes on cigs and alcohol - should this be changed so a pack of 20 costs... I dunno, £3?
Think about it - from tax breaks on savings, pensions and various other things, to taxing flights etc... (once could say that the rail industry benefits twice as they get subsidies AND airlines have a passenger tax) - all governments use tax to make us do more or less of it.
Or another way - are people who are vaping now and not smoking, the same as those using EV rather than ICE, in your eyes fiddling the taxpayer?
Maybe we should do away with drink drive laws - after all, if the idea of not drinking and driving is a good idea, it should stand on its own two feet, and the government shouldnt bribe me by banning/fining/jailing me if I chose to do it!
cambsno
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It has to be a global decision - if the rest of the world (China, US) decide that EV is the way forward, we cannot push on with hydrogen as the likes of VW will not be interested in spending so much on a small market. there is nothing the UK government can do with hydrogen unless there is global appeal/demand
Jelster
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Human nature is to go where the value is, or where the cost is less. Bonuses, commisions etc are all designed to drive a behaviour. It's the same with tax breaks & discounts. The government is rewarding people for going green, in line with its policies. It's not a bribe. A bribe is exactly the opposite, paying someone to go against policy or laws....
Sometimes people need a little nudge. Remember the wailing and teeth gnashing when low energy light bulbs were introduced. I don't think it's that contentious that the early iterations were not very good. However the product developed and now anyone still pining for 150W bulbs?
Similarly the 5p tax on plastic carrier bags. I think the vast majority of people believed it was a good idea not to keep chucking these into landfill. However with a very small nudge pretty much everyone now takes their own bags to the supermarket.
I understand not everyone likes EVs or they don't work for their particular circumstances but that's the current direction of travel. If one of the car manufacturers comes up with a super new tech at equivalent cost to the consumer they may well corner the market
It has to be viable and have market signals. Currently the only market signals is to decarbonise transport which is a shift away from combustion engines. The fuel option for that is electricity and thats already an established process to generate as we already use electricity. However we don't use hydrogen in sufficient quantities for there to have been development of plant to make hydrogen which required energy and that energy would be electricity. So its slightly less efficient to use electricity to make hydrogen to power vehicles than just to put the electricity into vehicles without the additional energy change process. Only once lithium becomes more scares will the economic change.
AndrewFlannigan
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Monoculture is always a pathway to extinction.
We should be aiming to have three or four or more fuel sources and technologies for transport.
cambsno
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Thats not really feasible - until recently we have just had petrol and diesel which are similar. having multiple sources (say EV, hydrogen, petrol and something else) is not realistic. You would need charging points, petrol stations, hydrogen exchanges and whatever else.
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You mean like humans on Planet Earth?
AndrewFlannigan
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Of course it's feasible.
People have modified Internal combustion engines to run on all sorts of fuels.
AndrewFlannigan
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No.
ancient_mariner
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Everything is just going to have to become more expensive.
munch
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And I hope you continue to enjoy driving it. But we all enjoy different things. So whilst you find your car sheer enjoyment, you can't claim the same for everyone.Picked up my new car today and drove 160 miles home, sheer joy, even in the rain
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Picked up my new car today and drove 160 miles home, sheer joy, even in the rain
I'd need to stop to fill up at least once using my favourite ICE vehicle.
cambsno
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Not commercially, go to your local Tesco or bp, petrol or diesel.
What commercially available cars run on anything other than electric, petrol or diesel?
ancient_mariner
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JonathanRyan
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The cool kids have all moved to Claude. It's amazing what he can do.Well, it appears quite a few of the EV liking people don't like Chat GPT there
Meanwhile I stopped reading the chatgpt output when it said electricity costs 5 x what I pay. If I'd been interacting with it, I would have corrected that fact and asked for a recalculation.
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Google is as bad. I was looking at some diesel additive to clean the injectors, etc. On google the side effects are that it can cause drowsiness and dizzyness.
munch
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Here we go again another EV owner who thinks that because they own an EV they are saving the planet and the rest of us are by definition destroying it.
There are many reasons why people can't or won't buy an EV it does not mean we don't care about the planet.
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What COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE cars run on etc....
I think there are a couple but getting fuel for them is a challenge. https://www.ukh2mobility.co.uk/stations/
srichards
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Hydrogen is a joke. The Toyota mirai was released not long after the Tesla model S in the uk. There are now well under 100 of the Mirai left taxed. Meanwhile there are 10,000 Tesla model S and they haven't been sold in right hand drive form for several years here now. They were both £60k roughly when new.
Those that think electric isn't the answer really have no idea how crap and elitist sustainable fuels are going to be. Us plebs in our normal cars won't get a look in. It's just for rich people to swan around with.
Those that think electric isn't the answer really have no idea how crap and elitist sustainable fuels are going to be. Us plebs in our normal cars won't get a look in. It's just for rich people to swan around with.
AndrewFlannigan
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