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That's a fact!
and the site receives a small commission
AndrewFlannigan
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No. They are claiming money that every citizen is entitled to, on proof of need.
See my first answer.
Because they paid heavy taxes for each smoke and each drink.
There may be grounds to consider withholding benefits, from those who began smoking or drinking heavily, after warnings were given.
As I have indicated above, your last point may, in my opinion, be accurate in certain circumstances but not in all.
AndrewFlannigan
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Indeed, we are both stating our opinions.
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However, the only way that opinions are of equal value is if they are valueless.Indeed, we are both stating our opinions.
JonathanRyan
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I remember this loop.
Not smoking = tax dodging. Vaping = definite tax dodging because people are still getting the "benefits" of smoking (aka chronic lung damage) w/o the duty of paying, err, duty.
See also drinking / not drinking and alcohol free beer.
It would be entertaining to hear your opinion on whether it's people who play the lottery who are dodging tax (bc winnings aren't taxed) or people who don't play the lottery who are dodging tax bc there is duty on playing.
ancient_mariner
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As EV car prices continue to align with ICE it will make more sense to buy EV than ICE, especially if you can charge at home from solar or have free work charging as is becoming more common. as for running into the ground, SOMEONE will do that even if it's not me.
If I replace my car with an EV then I need a 350 mile range for the long drives I do several times a year, not that it would be enough to get me there, but it would make the stopping points acceptable. There's nothing out there at the right price and age right now, but in a couple of years there might be.
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You can of course buy an EV and run it into the ground and it will work out considerably cheaper than any petrol or diesel car.
So how much does the "insurance" "servicing" and "VED" for an electric car cost?
munch
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The problem is we don't know that, in all honesty. We won't know for several more years how long EV's will actually last.
Just had a quick look at some Nissan leaf's from 2011 most have done less than 100,000 miles. Difficult to see how they have been run into the ground with that sort of mileage.
that depends n the brand.
Tesla have no service plan, they advise a yearly check at most.
if you buy German they will have their rip of service schedule as per normal.
insurance was only slightly more(150ish) for my Tesla compared to a X1 20d that was 7/8 years old
ved as most cars is 195 a year, with this being the first year its been added to EV's, as has luxury car tax.
luxury car tax is the biggest p*ss take for any type of car as it hasn't been adjusted for inflation since introduced.
so a 40k isn't really luxury when a standard corsa now costs 20k and an electric cosra is 25k(average car price in the uk is now 39k)
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Servicing is going to be less in actual money changing hands because there's a lot of stuff changed in a petrol car service that just isn't in an EV. Engine oil and filters e.g.
EV brakes tend to last far longer because of regen braking and service intervals are also much further apart.
Insurance is hard to tell, it varies so much with the driver. VED now is I think the same as any car £195?
Again, this video explains a lot of the costs of ownership.
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Kawasaki Z EV
A studio shot of the Kawasaki Z EV taken from the right side of the bike
Expected to make its debut later this year, the Kawasaki Z EV is part of a duo, making up Kawasaki’s new zero-emission range, which also includes a Kawasaki Ninja EV. In summer 2022, Kawasaki rolled out a prototype of the Z EV, while showcasing a Ninja Hybrid concept, at Suzuka 8 Hours and gave fans an unexpected demo run of the bike. Kawasaki has also been showcasing a concept propelled with hydrogen, so it's really throwing itself into this zero-emissions thing.
Kawasaki released details back in 2019 of an EV concept and spoke of ambitions of 'a mid-capacity style machine with more rider features' than current EV rivals. The electric motor is expected to have between 10-20kW output and uses familiar road bike suspension, akin to the Ninja 650. The Z EV, however, will be a more diminutive electric bike. The prototype used the fuel-based Z250's frame but in the 2022 unveil, Kawasaki's chief Hiroshi Ito said they'd have two 3kWh removable batteries which suggests a more 125cc-class equivalent. While details are sparse, by the looks of things, the Z EV will be one cool urban runner with Kawasaki’s signature styling.
A studio shot of the Kawasaki Z EV taken from the right side of the bike
Expected to make its debut later this year, the Kawasaki Z EV is part of a duo, making up Kawasaki’s new zero-emission range, which also includes a Kawasaki Ninja EV. In summer 2022, Kawasaki rolled out a prototype of the Z EV, while showcasing a Ninja Hybrid concept, at Suzuka 8 Hours and gave fans an unexpected demo run of the bike. Kawasaki has also been showcasing a concept propelled with hydrogen, so it's really throwing itself into this zero-emissions thing.
Kawasaki released details back in 2019 of an EV concept and spoke of ambitions of 'a mid-capacity style machine with more rider features' than current EV rivals. The electric motor is expected to have between 10-20kW output and uses familiar road bike suspension, akin to the Ninja 650. The Z EV, however, will be a more diminutive electric bike. The prototype used the fuel-based Z250's frame but in the 2022 unveil, Kawasaki's chief Hiroshi Ito said they'd have two 3kWh removable batteries which suggests a more 125cc-class equivalent. While details are sparse, by the looks of things, the Z EV will be one cool urban runner with Kawasaki’s signature styling.
The rise of green tech is feeding another environmental crisis
The world's race to decarbonise has led to the rise of electric cars - and with it, soaring demand for lithium, which is required for the batteries
www.bbc.co.uk
ancient_mariner
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At present rates that's true, as with the example I gave, but I think it likely to change in the future
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The future is another country
Lots of things will change but one thing has been constant since the industrial revolution. Technology moves forward and mass production makes things cheaper, always.
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The rise of green tech is feeding another environmental crisis
The world's race to decarbonise has led to the rise of electric cars - and with it, soaring demand for lithium, which is required for the batteries
The BBC as usual late to the party and not very accurate.
Lithium is on the way out for EV use, Sodium batteries are coming to market right now, they use Zero lithium.
The bbc's innacurate reporting..Chile might be the biggest land based source of Lithium but it's far from the biggest in the world. There's 180 billion tons floating around in the oceans, extraction of which is being worked on though it might be superceded by sodium.
ancient_mariner
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This is now. The future is another country, right?
Following this thread it is interesting to read talk of bribes / not bribes. Stealing tax / not stealing tax etc
Governments of all colours essentially use tax as
1) A revenue raiser to fund their spending decisions and
2) To shape behaviours
As a simple example of 1) is income tax - who pays what proportion is a political argument.
2) Behaviour shaping can be seen in a variety of forms e.g. ISA to encourage savings and as brought up in this thread grants for certain EVs
If people are unhappy with how the government of the day are dealing with 1 and 2 there is the option via the ballot box to select a government more aligned to their views
As full disclosure I do lease an EV (with my own money) as I wanted to try one. So I am paying VAT on the lease cost, VED from this year, VAT on the electricity used to charge it, VAT on the cost of having a home charger installed. I accept I no longer pay excise duty and VAT on the diesel I used to use but that's because my behaviour has been shaped. Do I feel I am stealing from my fellow taxpayers ? No but that is my perception others obviously have different perspectives.
I would also say the oil industry does have some generous tax relief available to it. Have a look at the treatment of the rig decommissioning as one example the NAO report in 2019 suggests the Treasury will be impacted by 24 Bn in total
Governments of all colours essentially use tax as
1) A revenue raiser to fund their spending decisions and
2) To shape behaviours
As a simple example of 1) is income tax - who pays what proportion is a political argument.
2) Behaviour shaping can be seen in a variety of forms e.g. ISA to encourage savings and as brought up in this thread grants for certain EVs
If people are unhappy with how the government of the day are dealing with 1 and 2 there is the option via the ballot box to select a government more aligned to their views
As full disclosure I do lease an EV (with my own money) as I wanted to try one. So I am paying VAT on the lease cost, VED from this year, VAT on the electricity used to charge it, VAT on the cost of having a home charger installed. I accept I no longer pay excise duty and VAT on the diesel I used to use but that's because my behaviour has been shaped. Do I feel I am stealing from my fellow taxpayers ? No but that is my perception others obviously have different perspectives.
I would also say the oil industry does have some generous tax relief available to it. Have a look at the treatment of the rig decommissioning as one example the NAO report in 2019 suggests the Treasury will be impacted by 24 Bn in total
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You said you thought things would change but you didn't say how you thought they would change (I assumed you meant increased cost)
I endeavoured to point out that the future is unknown, that anything could happen but, given what I know/see, that future costs will not be higher but lower.
ancient_mariner
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There's 2 separate issues. The environmental damage is immediate (just like the damage from oil extraction) and will continue for now. The cost of making batteries will come down, but I fully expect the cost of running an EV to increase as they become more mainstream - probably pay per mile to prevent solar home charging from circumventing tax on electricity.
AndrewFlannigan
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That would be a solution to the loss of fuel duty.
It was obvious that the sub-text, in the electric car propaganda, was always "cheaper to run" but those politicians who should have been worrying about the impact on infrastructure weren't doing their job and instead were mesmerised by the electric lobby.
cambsno
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And I am fuelling my car from home which I am also entitled too.
You also have not answered my question - seeing as train and bus companies get subsidies from the government, are their users cheating the taxpayer too?
cambsno
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Fag packet calcs for me after 2 years:
Sportage - 350pm
Tesla - 480pm
So EV is costing me 130pm more in monthly payments (that was my car which was 3 years old though and when I looked at the new version it was broadly the same price as the Tesla), so not like for like.
Savings in 2 years:
16pm in tax (yes, I am a criminal and should be locked up for stealing from the taxpayer)
130pm in fuel
30pm in service costs
Insurance is more, hard to work out as prices change all the time etc... but it had risen a lot and now come down a bit now as well. Guessing its about 30pm more for Tesla.
So give or take 150pm better off. So my all in costs from having Sportage to this have stayed the same but I have a newer car, better tech, amazing performance. Had I gone with a new sportage it would have been about 130pm more to have that rather than the Tesla
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cambsno
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Call me paranoid but I dont think he is answering questions that would add further ridicule his posts - not had an answer on my question about the bribes government uses for trains and buses. I mean, https://www.gov.uk/government/news/...t-funding-to-upgrade-londons-transport-system - is a bribe for tube users, is this right in the way the taxpayer is being cheated.
At least I am in good company, lots of commuters up and down the country are also fiddling the tax system!! Not to mention those pensioners who are cheating people by using their free bus passes!
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Not sure that would ever happen but road tax needs to be looked at. It should start at £100 not £0. So many cars pay nothing or next to nothing. I drive a 2 litre VW Passat diesel and it's only £35 a year to tax. That's crazy, no wonder our roads are in such a bad state. If the government announced that road tax will start at £100 with 100% of the money going on fixing the roads most people would except that. If road tax on electric cars was £100 it would not affect a single sale, not one.
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There’s no way that Vehicle Excise Duty money should be put aside for roads. Churchill argued against this 90 years ago and it still holds true. He said that hypothecating ‘road tax’ for roads would give drivers a sense of ownership.
Given the nonsense that is spouted by some entitled drivers, this is absolutely right. Churchill is reported to have written in a memo:
Given the nonsense that is spouted by some entitled drivers, this is absolutely right. Churchill is reported to have written in a memo:
ancient_mariner
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IIRC Churchill said quite a lot of things, some of which I'm certain you would vehemently disagree with. I'm not sure this works now, but rather fuels a growing sense of outrage.
AndrewFlannigan
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It doesn't matter what "pot" taxes go into.
What matters is that the government has enough money in the piggy bank to keep things running smoothly and stops letting people off taxes, which others are forced to pay
What matters is that the government has enough money in the piggy bank to keep things running smoothly and stops letting people off taxes, which others are forced to pay
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Gordon Bron's 1% on NI was hypothecated for the NHS. A retrograde step, I thought.
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That's not what you said earlier in the thread.
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Calling the VED "Road Tax" fuels the outrage. Drivers who think that because they choose a method of transport that exposes them to pay duty and tax, they somehow have more of a right to the roads. Roads are paid out of general taxation.
VED and fuel duty goes into general taxation. General taxation pays of things like NHS, Schools, Law and Order, Transport. People who pay more in tax (e.g., someone earns £100k, pays £27k in tax) don't get more school, or more hospital, or more road.
The move to electric will have to be addressed, as there is a drop in taxable income, and quite possibly an increase in damage to the infrastructure because of heavier vehicles (although that is already happening with the bigger and heavier ICE cars that are the norm now)
AndrewFlannigan
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Can you provide any evidence that there are such people?
You are quite correct and that is the general approach taken in most countries.
Again I agree.
However, unless we move to a single tax system (possibly based on a combination of wealth and income) the government of the day needs to be much more careful about the general public believing that any group is being favoured. A cornerstone of democracy is that everone is seen to be equal and every case of perceived inequality weakens a democracy.
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I am quite intrigued by the whole taxation thing as it seems the more our cultures move forward and ditch things that are/were bad for our health does mean reductions in tax.
governments have generally taxed things based on if it is bad for us and we enjoy it.
these things generally harm the user directly
cigarettes/tobacco
alcohol
junk food
sugar
and then we have petrol/diesel which harms the environment and other users
so again to follow previous models we should NOT tax EVs for electricity as they are reducing pollution and harm to our immediate environment.
so what do we do now? well personally we do need to put more tax on fossil fuel users , we should definitely be taxing diesel at a much higher rate than we are now, it is now unacceptable to be burning such a dirty fuel in our streets and towns, we should also increase VED on diesel cars especially older ones , any diesel less that EURO6 and and petrol less than EURO5 should be issued a stark warning.
governments have generally taxed things based on if it is bad for us and we enjoy it.
these things generally harm the user directly
cigarettes/tobacco
alcohol
junk food
sugar
and then we have petrol/diesel which harms the environment and other users
so again to follow previous models we should NOT tax EVs for electricity as they are reducing pollution and harm to our immediate environment.
so what do we do now? well personally we do need to put more tax on fossil fuel users , we should definitely be taxing diesel at a much higher rate than we are now, it is now unacceptable to be burning such a dirty fuel in our streets and towns, we should also increase VED on diesel cars especially older ones , any diesel less that EURO6 and and petrol less than EURO5 should be issued a stark warning.
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Actually petrol/diesel/EV harms the user too, by reducing their exercise levels.
munch
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True, it tickles me the number of people that go to our local gym that take the car to get there.
ancient_mariner
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What you say is well known, however for my lifetime I've heard VED called road tax (perhaps because without it one may not park most cars on the highway). The link is firmly established, and Churchill or otherwise, the horse has bolted.
Implied too is that the highway for use of a car and any other transport will be properly maintained, which is causing some of the frustration we see. Some will also think it gives them more right to use the roads than others, but that's likely only a small minority.