Two woman PC's shot in Manchester

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The other side of the police 'debate' - 1 dead and one critically injured during an arrest.


A female police officer has died during an operation to arrest a man in Tameside, Greater Manchester.
Officers said a second female police officer was also critically injured during the incident.
A witness close to the scene near Ashworth Lane, Mottram, reported hearing 13 gunshots and an explosion.
Police said Dale Cregan, wanted in connection with a gun and grenade murder in Clayton, had been arrested.
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BBC News
 
It really is a bad world we are all living in now, imagine the world our grandkids are going to be living in!:(
 
my thoughts are with the families of these police officers. its about time all police officers were armed in the uk.
 
2nd officer now confirmed to have died ... really bad news :(
 
This is terrible news and a reminder of the danger that police officers can be subjected to. My thoughts are with their families.

It reminds me of the shooting of two other female police officers in Bradford, during an armed robbery.

Personally though, I wouldn't be happy for all police officers to be routinely armed with handguns, and I believe that most police officers don't want it either. The best answer may be for more police officers to be armed with non-lethal tasers - but the only real answer is to do more to stop guns getting into the hands of criminals, and for the Courts to pass down much more severe sentences when criminals are caught with guns. There is a mandatory 5 year sentence for illegal possession of a firearm, but the Courts seem to routinely ignore this...
 
Garry Edwards said:
but the only real answer is to do more to stop guns getting into the hands of criminals
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That horse has bolted, got old and died by now

Our borders are so porous since most of the EU turned up at Dover the criminals have to decide which gun to take, not go looking for one to buy,

They don't get long sentences because they haven't defrauded the inland revenue

I'm sad to say it but this isn't a world I'd want to be a policeman in without a gun as backup

Like an American cop once said, what do you do, shout stop or I'll er shout stop again

Pulling over a car at night in the dark must be worrying when you have no idea if it's full of drugs driven by someone who'll do anything to get away up to and including shooting you dead.

There isn't the respect there once was for the police, when I was a kid if a copper told you off you looked at the floor and said sorry, now they ride round them on their bikes telling them to **** off
 
pepi1967 said:
my thoughts are with the families of these police officers. its about time all police officers were armed in the uk.
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Very sad day

But more guns will not solve anything.
 
There is a huge fault in the law where you carry a knife and you get let off, and as Garry says, you carry a gun and you get nothing or very little. Trouble is there are probably a number of people with Grandads old WW2 pistol who if caught would probably get 5 years, but who pose no risk, yet the villan caught with one in the street would get let off.

I think MORE (not all) officers should be armed, and surely at any action involving arresting people like this should have armed police present. Trouble is there is always less reaction to this (2 decent law abiding people being shot) than the criminal getting shot last year which resulted in the riots.
 
wack61 said:
That horse has bolted, got old and died by now

Our borders are so porous since most of the EU turned up at Dover the criminals have to decide which gun to take, not go looking for one to buy,

They don't get long sentences because they haven't defrauded the inland revenue

I'm sad to say it but this isn't a world I'd want to be a policeman in without a gun as backup

Like an American cop once said, what do you do, shout stop or I'll er shout stop again

Pulling over a car at night in the dark must be worrying when you have no idea if it's full of drugs driven by someone who'll do anything to get away up to and including shooting you dead.

There isn't the respect there once was for the police, when I was a kid if a copper told you off you looked at the floor and said sorry, now they ride round them on their bikes telling them to **** off
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The most porous bit is fruit and veg containers coming into the country from asian countries, where, partly because the goods are perishable and partly because of lack of resources, most don't get checked.

But I don't think it's as bad as you assume it to be. The fact that most of the handguns used by criminals are in fact blank firers or airguns that have been converted to fire just one round indicates this. Things are improving, it is now extremely difficult for criminals to get the ingredients to make ammunition (since the murder of PC Ian Broadhurst in 1993) and both firearms dealers and legitimate firearms owners keep their ammunition very secure, and guns can't be fired by criminals unless they can get the ammunition for them.

I repeat, the people who let the public and the police down on this are the judges.
 
Speaking from experience, yes I'm a cop, and from working in a big city, guns are generally uncommon - although I've personally arrested someone in possession of a handgun for armed robbery and stopped someone routinely and found a handgun (I was unarmed).

Knives, bats and a whole host of inventive weapons are the biggest risk.

We work alone now most of the time (looks like there's twice as many you see ;) ) and most of us would prefer to be armed with Taser. Its excellent and believe it or not, the person is far less likely to suffer injury that when being hit with a metal asp or even just taken to the floor. But the big plus of it, most violent offenders suddenly lose all interest when 'red dotted' and will happily out their hands behind their backs.

However, they cost £700 each plus the training. But remember, the cuts don't affect frontline policing.
 
I am some what concerned that two unarmed police women were called to attend, when shots had been heard earlier. It seems inappropriate.
Perhaps it will be clarified later.
 
A sadly true day, sounds like the guy was an utter wrong'un. Respect to the families, a reminder of the dangers these guys can face.

cambsno said:
you carry a gun and you get nothing or very little. Trouble is there are probably a number of people with Grandads old WW2 pistol who if caught would probably get 5 years, but who pose no risk, yet the villan caught with one in the street would get let off.
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Well made up! :nuts:
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
I am some what concerned that two unarmed police women were called to attend, when shots had been heard earlier. It seems inappropriate.
Perhaps it will be clarified later.
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Happens all the time - we get loads of people reporting gunshots and unless it's corroborated or the caller has some more information to really confirm it's an actual firearms job, unarmed cops would be sent to 'gather intelligence'.

To be honest, there's a bit of a blame culture in this country and for anything terrible, there always has to be someone to blame. But sometimes horrible things happen and no-one has done anything wrong (apart from the $%^& firing the gun). I can quite easily envisage an scenario whereby every rule and guide has been followed to the letter and this still happens. An unfortunate reality.
 
You can legislate for guns all you like, the guy threw a ****ing grenade at them. I mean A GRENADE, who the the hell walks around armed with grenades??
 
Made up?
There was a gentleman a year or so back who was caught in possession of a stolen shotgun that he used to shoot a wart off of his finger. It's a pity it wasn't on his nose... Sentence? Suspended.

2 youths in North London, car stopped by police, handgun found inside. No action taken, lack of evidence re ownership.

A local criminal in Scarborough with a string of convictions, arrested in possession of 6 firearms, mainly shotguns. Sentence? £70 fine.
 
johnny8977 said:
Happens all the time - we get loads of people reporting gunshots and unless it's corroborated or the caller has some more information to really confirm it's an actual firearms job, unarmed cops would be sent to 'gather intelligence'.

To be honest, there's a bit of a blame culture in this country and for anything terrible, there always has to be someone to blame. But sometimes horrible things happen and no-one has done anything wrong (apart from the $%^& firing the gun). I can quite easily envisage an scenario whereby every rule and guide has been followed to the letter and this still happens. An unfortunate reality.
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Of course I'm going to be accused of being sexist here...
But as a police officer, do you feel that women PC's are actually up to the job of dealing with potentially violent criminals anyway?

I know of a case where a lone male police officer used a very high level of violence to arrest a male (he had no choice). I can't help wondering what would have happened if a female police officer had been in that position.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Of course I'm going to be accused of being sexist here...
But as a police officer, do you feel that women PC's are actually up to the job of dealing with potentially violent criminals anyway?

I know of a case where a lone male police officer used a very high level of violence to arrest a male (he had no choice). I can't help wondering what would have happened if a female police officer had been in that position.
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Some of WPCs round here are more capable of handling themselves than their male colleagues...
 
Garry Edwards said:
Of course I'm going to be accused of being sexist here...
But as a police officer, do you feel that women PC's are actually up to the job of dealing with potentially violent criminals anyway?

I know of a case where a lone male police officer used a very high level of violence to arrest a male (he had no choice). I can't help wondering what would have happened if a female police officer had been in that position.
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Oh I don't know...perhaps she would have done her job to the best of her ability regardless of her gender? Jesus. :shrug:
 
Garry Edwards said:
Of course I'm going to be accused of being sexist here...
But as a police officer, do you feel that women PC's are actually up to the job of dealing with potentially violent criminals anyway?

I know of a case where a lone male police officer used a very high level of violence to arrest a male (he had no choice). I can't help wondering what would have happened if a female police officer had been in that position.
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i wonder how many times that gets RTM'd..

:lol:
 
johnny8977 said:
Happens all the time - we get loads of people reporting gunshots and unless it's corroborated or the caller has some more information to really confirm it's an actual firearms job, unarmed cops would be sent to 'gather intelligence'.

To be honest, there's a bit of a blame culture in this country and for anything terrible, there always has to be someone to blame. But sometimes horrible things happen and no-one has done anything wrong (apart from the $%^& firing the gun). I can quite easily envisage an scenario whereby every rule and guide has been followed to the letter and this still happens. An unfortunate reality.
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Back when I was a student, so late 1980s, a friend of a friend had a mate round to their flat and said mate bought an air rifle with him and was pointing it out the window at birds in the sky (if anyone knows Bristol, it was in the block above the small supermarket next to the Highbury Vaults in Kingsdown, not far from most of the university faculties).

Half of Avon and Somerset constabulary turned up at his door, including an armed unit. Lets say that said mate was never invited round again, poor chap wet himself at being forced to the floor by lots of blokes pointing guns at him :naughty:


(I do agree with you about the whole blame culture thing btw, it seems nowadays the first question that's asked is "who's fault?", not how similar events can be prevented in future.)
 
Garry Edwards said:
Of course I'm going to be accused of being sexist here...
But as a police officer, do you feel that women PC's are actually up to the job of dealing with potentially violent criminals anyway?

I know of a case where a lone male police officer used a very high level of violence to arrest a male (he had no choice). I can't help wondering what would have happened if a female police officer had been in that position.
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It's a balancing act. In general, woman PC's aren't as big or strong or as able to handle violence as males (generally, there's always exceptions).

But often, WPC's will be better to talk someone out of being violent with them in the first place.

It's not sexist to accept human physiology means that male are generally bigger and stronger than females.
 
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viv1969 said:
Oh I don't know...perhaps she would have done her job to the best of her ability regardless of her gender? Jesus. :shrug:
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Its a fact of life, women are not as big or strong as men. Sure, some are more than capable but if I was to scrap with 10 men I may 'win' 5 of them, with 10 women I would probably win 9 of them.
 
id like to think WPC have the basic skills in restraining holds and defense.. if its anything like what a girl mate who worked with autistic and asperger kids knew then those work well.

:suspect:
 
Size and strength are not a good way to estimate someone's ability to deal with a confrontational situation. I've seen cases where very slightly built women have bought down guys built like bulls. We're not talking about your average woman off the streets, but a trained professional. It's about training and knowledge.....knowing what you're doing and and doing it well.
 
viv1969 said:
......We're not talking about your average woman off the streets, but a trained professional. It's about training and knowledge.....knowing what you're doing and and doing it well.
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Unfortunately, in my force at least, it does come down to size and strength 9 out of 10 times. We get 2 days of training a year, with only 25% actual hands on self defence. If you don't have any skills from outside and you're normally built, your 'training' is going to account for zero when someone kicks off.

Training = money and time away from 'the streets'. We get the bare minimum to enable the force to say 'we trained them to Home Office standards' should something go wrong. I would imagine GMP are very similar.
 
Chief Constable says that the women were "ambushed" - a call went out from him or someone in the house to say a burglary had taken place at the house, when they arrived the guy came out of the house and fired his gun and threw a grenade ... don't think male or female would have made any difference here.
Sadly we will now have to keep him!
 
What a tragedy, my thoughts are with their families.

wack61 said:
There isn't the respect there once was for the police, when I was a kid if a copper told you off you looked at the floor and said sorry, now they ride round them on their bikes telling them to **** off
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And you hoped your mum and dad never found out - or you wouldn't be sitting for a week.

Garry Edwards said:
I repeat, the people who let the public and the police down on this are the judges.
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Completely agree
 
What kind of man deliberately sets a trap to murder people he doesn't even know? It's just thoroughly evil.

Thankfully, there are relatively few murders in this country, and normally the only police officers murdered on duty are those who are trying to arrest the criminal at the time.

I agree, if the information now released is true, the sex of the police officers, and come to that whether or not they were armed, makes no difference.
 
This is indeed a dark time for the police and the community, my thoughts are with their family, friends and colleagues.

It only takes a few criminals and general nutters to reek havoc. Most of the public never have any need for the police as they go about their lives lawfully. Probably 1-2% of the community use 90%+ of the police's time. Anybody been watching 999:What's your emergency?....

Almost exclusively around the country police officers, male and female, are SINGLE crewed not doubled up as they were there. Training in self defence is often as little as 1 day a year and the police numbers are being cut dramatically. The headline figure is 25% but is some areas by 50%. Air support sections are being merged across forces (including GMP where this happened). Specialist departments are being cut so that officers do not have routine access to dogs etc. Armed patrols are being reduced due to the much larger cost of armed officers due to training days, extra equipment etc etc The police work silly hours and with big restrictions on they lives yet they are being systematically targeted by the government for cuts. Yet even with the cuts and erosion of their income etc they are still doing their jobs and taking up the slack.
 
The suspect has been wanted by the police for a while, jumped bail and absconded from Manchester Airport when being flown back a while ago....STAFF EDIT: Opinion removed.
 
Keebsuk said:
My deepest condolences to family and friends of these officers.

This sort of offence, where as clear cut, should be dealt with in only one way. BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY.

Andy
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Couldn't agree more Andy. There is no deterrent in this country anymore and you can go out and commit crimes and receive very little,if no punishment at all. As you say in a case like this where you know who did it, and it can be proved 100% in a court of law, then the death penalty should be applied to that person. That not being the case this country will now spend millions keeping this scumbag murderer in prison for what hopefully will be the rest of his life.
 
Keebsuk said:
My deepest condolences to family and friends of these officers.

This sort of offence, where as clear cut, should be dealt with in only one way. BRING BACK THE DEATH PENALTY.

Andy
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In a case as clear cut as this i too would agree.
 
Thoughts with the families, cannot think how they must feel.

Agree with there is no deterrent anymore, plus this coward will get the best legal aid money can buy paid by the great British public. Makes me sick.
 
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