So much hatred for new wedding photographers??

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Davyboy said:
There seems to be quite a few elitists on this forum, why all the negative remarks towards photographers who intend to start in the wedding game? I know there will be some who have the gear but haven't a clue what an f stop is, but there will also be some very adequate people out there who would do a good job with a little practice in whatever direction they choose to go in, whether it be weddings, commercial, sport etc etc.
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Too true. I run a couple of portrait studios in berks and hampshire. We have moved into wedding photography. Our pro photographer seems ok but the studio photographers who shoot alongside them as often as not take as good photos. You dont have to be awedding photographer to understand light conditions.

But the main point I like to make is that there should be a range of prices for a wedding. If you know someone who is handy with a 1000d then why not let them shoot your wedding and save acouple of grand. Peolle are not stupid (well ok most are) but most know that a 200 pound photographer is not going to have as much experience as a 2000 pound photographer. It is their choice. Anyway we are living in a new world. These young wippersnappers can make a standard photo look great with ps5
 
cracking thread!

I did a wedding for my BIL who didnt want a pro tog taking over his day......it was a modest affair cost about £30,000 and had a number of well known politicians present. I used a Fuji 9500 bridge camera and the B &G were delighted with the results - which is all that matters.

Had I have mentioned this on this forums many would have had the screaming abdabs, but I did plan and prepare, had a back up camera and printed on site.

I do agree those asking what lens they should use or that they really dont want to understand exposure and ISO shouldn't shoot a birthday party, let alone a wedding, but there is no reason why any competent amateur shouldnt shoot a wedding with adequate preparation.

Frankly if you come on here asking advice on how to shoot a wedding then you shouldnt!

Personally I think wedding togs have had an easyish time until digital came along, and now they are trying to hang on to that life style.........my view many will disagree!!!!!!!

Its all about the way you approach things. I have been asked to take pics tomorrow of a fairly minor event at work. My D300s is prepared with fully charged battery in grip and sb600 with fresh batteries, and two spare sets. 16 - 85 lens on 35 f1.8 in the bag. D60 in reserve with Nissin 622 and fresh batterries. I also took some test shots today at the venue. Hopefully it will go without problems but I have at least prepared properly and (I hope) in a professional way.
 
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Wow. Please can we have you guys rock up and flash mob every single wedding thread with talk about fish? It's a great improvement over the usual bitching :D
 
because a lot of people do it and a lot of the 'pros' on TP are primarily wedding/portrait shooters.

Direct marketing photography (wedding/portrait/pet ect) is easier to get into than the more industrial types (commercial/editorial/press/advertising ect) so a lot of people use it as their way into photography and the lower levels are very very acessible (most members on here are better shooters than several full timers round here), its the high levels that are hard to break into.

People get ****ed off because they see work being taken from them by people that don't try as hard as they do.
 
I was recently asked to a colleagues daughters christening as a guest. I asked the them if it would be ok to bring along my camera and they said yes. I suggested if they liked the photographs I would get a load printed off as a present. The result was a set of good photographs (not mind blowing). The parents were delighted with what I gave them. They showed me their wedding photographs from a couple of years ago which they paid £800 for. I remember at the time they were disappointed with the photographs. For a pro they were not great. As for me, I had a lovely day at the christening, I learnt a bit more about taking photographs and about my camera.

Over the last couple of years I have been to quite a few works do's, parties etc and every time I have taken my photo equipment so that I can get experience, and to get to know my equipment better.

My wife and I have 18 nieces and nephews and I know what is going to happen. One day the phone will ring and a voice wile say "Can you photograph my wedding uncle Iain".
 
POAH said:
The problem with these discussions is they denigrate in to a free for all abuse throwing match rather than a civilised chat.
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Poah - you're like some kind of wisened old soothesayer who can predict the future :D

FWIW, if the person you're shooting for likes what you do then fine, be you an amateur doing it as a favour or someone taking it serious as a career. Hell, I just do them as easy cash because I know it's a few hours work that'll hardly tax me and I'll provide something far greater than the couple's expectations. Suits me down to the ground....
 
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I have to admit i haven't been here long, and have no interest in wedding (or any professional photography) myself, but have found that several of the "pro" photographers on here would really put me off ever wanting to use one myself.

I was bored over Christmas and read a lot of threads i would usually skip over, but found a very common theme seemed to be the "pro" photographers complaining about others who either undercut their prices, or who offered to take photos for free. Obviously they claim various interests, like they're trying to look out for their "fellow photographer" who they don't want to be exploited, but it seemed clear to me in many cases that they simply didn't want competition on what they saw as "their" ground. It even went so far at one point I saw a thread pointing to a website which apparently told photographers what they should charge for their photos, so they wouldn't inadvertently undercut each other and ensure they all remained able to charge high prices.

Anyway, won't say any more other than i think it's an appalling reflection on the industry, and the forum, and reading that sort of thing repeatedly - effectively the "pros" telling amateur photographers (who have no interest in making money from their hobby) that they weren't "allowed" to offer to photograph anything for a friend or colleague unless they also charged ridiculous prices because it "devalues photography" - is just ludicrous.

Obviously i'd like to make clear that i'm sure it's only a vocal minority, but frankly i don't notice / remember the names of any other members so don't build up a picture of how many are spouting those opinions. Obviously everyone's entitled to their views, but i would suggest that some really need a reality check of how the world works - cameras are everywhere, you can't stop people taking photos and doing with them what they please. If you want to make money, then you'd better show your potential customers how bloody good you are, rather than trying to tell everyone else that they're not allowed to cmpete with you because it's "your" business.

Apologies - I don't usually rant :)

David
 
scuby said:
I have to admit i haven't been here long, and have no interest in wedding (or any professional photography) myself, but have found that several of the "pro" photographers on here would really put me off ever wanting to use one myself.

I was bored over Christmas and read a lot of threads i would usually skip over, but found a very common theme seemed to be the "pro" photographers complaining about others who either undercut their prices, or who offered to take photos for free. Obviously they claim various interests, like they're trying to look out for their "fellow photographer" who they don't want to be exploited, but it seemed clear to me in many cases that they simply didn't want competition on what they saw as "their" ground. It even went so far at one point I saw a thread pointing to a website which apparently told photographers what they should charge for their photos, so they wouldn't inadvertently undercut each other and ensure they all remained able to charge high prices.

Anyway, won't say any more other than i think it's an appalling reflection on the industry, and the forum, and reading that sort of thing repeatedly - effectively the "pros" telling amateur photographers (who have no interest in making money from their hobby) that they weren't "allowed" to offer to photograph anything for a friend or colleague unless they also charged ridiculous prices because it "devalues photography" - is just ludicrous.

Obviously i'd like to make clear that i'm sure it's only a vocal minority, but frankly i don't notice / remember the names of any other members so don't build up a picture of how many are spouting those opinions. Obviously everyone's entitled to their views, but i would suggest that some really need a reality check of how the world works - cameras are everywhere, you can't stop people taking photos and doing with them what they please. If you want to make money, then you'd better show your potential customers how bloody good you are, rather than trying to tell everyone else that they're not allowed to cmpete with you because it's "your" business.

Apologies - I don't usually rant :)

David
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Some of that is shocking, surely if you want to give advice, do so generously, if not, dont. why the need to put people off.
I think potential clients would be very put off hiring anyone if they read some comments i have seen flying around online between pro's and amateurs.
 
itsdavedotnet said:
Happily, certainly if this forum is anything to judge on, noone is actually interested in commercial photography, they'd rather deal with dribbling babies and bitchy brides than PR agencies and marketing departments, so my career is safe... :cool:
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I'd sooner deal with a Mass outbreak of Amoebic Dysentry than PR Agencies and Marketing Departments to be honest! :naughty:
 
TheBigYin said:
I'd sooner deal with a Mass outbreak of Amoebic Dysentry than PR Agencies and Marketing Departments to be honest! :naughty:
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just a case of learning how to handle them. I'm getting used to the right motion with the cattle prod now... :lol:
 
You often see amatures aligned on one side of the argument, and pros on the other.

To be fair (as a total amature) both sides arguments are indeed valid.

Unfortunately for pro's, I see the market becoming even more saturated particulary with the state of the economy. It must be thought of as an inexpensive way to set up your own 'white-collar' type company with some redundancy funds.
 
You don't meet many amateurs doing PR and press work! :)
 
TheBigYin said:
I'd sooner deal with a Mass outbreak of Amoebic Dysentry than PR Agencies and Marketing Departments to be honest! :naughty:
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I love working with marketing departments, I used to have lunch in Marcomms at the guild just to be sociable (and to mention that they need photos done of stuff)
 
dance621 said:
I have a phd in the sustainable exploitation of amphiprion ocellaris (the false clown anemonefish).
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Can I just take this opportunity to ask the MODS to put this forward for the forum quote of the year for this year..............early I know but I can't see anything similar cropping up:lol:
 
i done my sisters wedding last year didnt bother asking for advice becouse of the hasle every body gets who ask for it she didnt have any money so i did it as a prezy i turned up done my best as a result i got 5 peaple ask me to do there wedding but im not intrested but was flatterd by the responce
 
A pro (albeit 12 years ago) shot my wedding.

The shots are good but there's no getting away from the fact that in 1999 he didn't have the same competition that he would have in today's 'digital' age.

Could I have done as well ?

At the time I'd have to say no because of the kit he had.

Was I happy with the pictures - yes.

Given the job - could I produce those pictures now with more modern kit - probably yes.
 
scuby said:
I was bored over Christmas and read a lot of threads i would usually skip over, but found a very common theme seemed to be the "pro" photographers complaining about others who either undercut their prices, or who offered to take photos for free. Obviously they claim various interests, like they're trying to look out for their "fellow photographer" who they don't want to be exploited, but it seemed clear to me in many cases that they simply didn't want competition on what they saw as "their" ground. It even went so far at one point I saw a thread pointing to a website which apparently told photographers what they should charge for their photos, so they wouldn't inadvertently undercut each other and ensure they all remained able to charge high prices.

Apologies - I don't usually rant :)

David
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David,

There are alot of threads that suggest people use the commercial (normally Alamy or Getty) libraries as a starting point when asked to price their work. Why is it an issue of self interest or anything other then good advice to suggest someone understands the market before selling in it?

Anyway from you avatar I guess your a diver, wouldn't you rather talk about clownfish? :D

Hugh
 
I guess its a free market at the end of the day & market forces will always allow for a broad breadth of abilities & pricing.

There will always be the pro & there will always be the weekend warrior & it will always be an uneasy alliance
 
itsdavedotnet said:
Happily, certainly if this forum is anything to judge on, noone is actually interested in commercial photography, they'd rather deal with dribbling babies and bitchy brides than PR agencies and marketing departments, so my career is safe... :cool:
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You and me both :D
 
Digital cameras have democratised photography just as the internet has democratised news publication. Those who held the esoteric talents (or had the financial wherewithal) now feel threatened because all they really held were the tools to do their job. Others with talent now have easy access to those tools to produce the same level of presentation - although those with no talent also have the tools to do it, albeit to a lower standard!

The good pro wedding photographers will survive and thrive, just as the good print media will. But they will both need to revise their business models to do so in the modern age. Those who do nothing but bleat will go to the wall.
 
Ed Sutton said:
Digital cameras have democratised photography just as the internet has democratised news publication. Those who held the esoteric talents (or had the financial wherewithal) now feel threatened because all they really held were the tools to do their job. Others with talent now have easy access to those tools to produce the same level of presentation - although those with no talent also have the tools to do it, albeit to a lower standard!

The good pro wedding photographers will survive and thrive, just as the good print media will. But they will both need to revise their business models to do so in the modern age. Those who do nothing but bleat will go to the wall.
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:agree:


Well put that man!!
 
scuby said:
I have to admit i haven't been here long, and have no interest in wedding (or any professional photography) myself, but have found that several of the "pro" photographers on here would really put me off ever wanting to use one myself.

I was bored over Christmas and read a lot of threads i would usually skip over, but found a very common theme seemed to be the "pro" photographers complaining about others who either undercut their prices, or who offered to take photos for free. Obviously they claim various interests, like they're trying to look out for their "fellow photographer" who they don't want to be exploited, but it seemed clear to me in many cases that they simply didn't want competition on what they saw as "their" ground. It even went so far at one point I saw a thread pointing to a website which apparently told photographers what they should charge for their photos, so they wouldn't inadvertently undercut each other and ensure they all remained able to charge high prices.

Anyway, won't say any more other than i think it's an appalling reflection on the industry, and the forum, and reading that sort of thing repeatedly - effectively the "pros" telling amateur photographers (who have no interest in making money from their hobby) that they weren't "allowed" to offer to photograph anything for a friend or colleague unless they also charged ridiculous prices because it "devalues photography" - is just ludicrous.

Obviously i'd like to make clear that i'm sure it's only a vocal minority, but frankly i don't notice / remember the names of any other members so don't build up a picture of how many are spouting those opinions. Obviously everyone's entitled to their views, but i would suggest that some really need a reality check of how the world works - cameras are everywhere, you can't stop people taking photos and doing with them what they please. If you want to make money, then you'd better show your potential customers how bloody good you are, rather than trying to tell everyone else that they're not allowed to cmpete with you because it's "your" business.

Apologies - I don't usually rant :)

David
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Well said Scuby.
It is a free and open market
If you are THAT good you will make money and your reputation will get you the work.
If someone wants photos of their wedding but can't afford PRO prices, WHY shouldn't they use anyone they wish to, it's their wedding/money/choice.
No one here doubts that wedding photograph is not easy, but ANYONE can do it, even with a point and shoot. The final results are going to be different (obviously) but if the couple are satisfied with what they get for what they paid, then, where's the problem?
Just because someone may class themselves as a PRO, doesn't mean they produce PRO quality work.
The good PRO's know who they are and have no fear of those trying to muscle in on their industry.
If I want to do wedding photography, why shouldn't I? (I don't by the way.)
Who's going to stop me?
There appear to be some very tall horses galloping arround this forum.......:naughty:
 
I find it amusing that it is mostly amateurs who have the strong opinions on how professional photographers should operate - they know nothing about the business of photography yet express these opinions - says a lot about this forum really.

I am not a wedding photographer BTW!
 
the forum will have a significantly more amatuer users than professional so its not surprising they have more contributions to threads. People are not saying how so called professional photographers should operate more how they have a certain way with words on wedding photography on this forum.

it has nothing to do with running a business - says a lot about you really ;)

awp said:
I find it amusing that it is mostly amateurs who have the strong opinions on how professional photographers should operate - they know nothing about the business of photography yet express these opinions - says a lot about this forum really.

I am not a wedding photographer BTW!
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POAH said:
the forum will have a significantly more amatuer users than professional so its not surprising they have more contributions to threads. People are not saying how so called professional photographers should operate more how they have a certain way with words on wedding photography on this forum.

it has nothing to do with running a business - says a lot about you really ;)
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coming from you there is so much irony it that post you must be having a laugh :suspect:
 
Howi said:
Well said Scuby.
It is a free and open market
If you are THAT good you will make money and your reputation will get you the work.
If someone wants photos of their wedding but can't afford PRO prices, WHY shouldn't they use anyone they wish to, it's their wedding/money/choice.
No one here doubts that wedding photograph is not easy, but ANYONE can do it, even with a point and shoot. The final results are going to be different (obviously) but if the couple are satisfied with what they get for what they paid, then, where's the problem?
Just because someone may class themselves as a PRO, doesn't mean they produce PRO quality work.
The good PRO's know who they are and have no fear of those trying to muscle in on their industry.
If I want to do wedding photography, why shouldn't I? (I don't by the way.)
Who's going to stop me?
There appear to be some very tall horses galloping arround this forum.......:naughty:
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When I read this sort of post I wonder if anyone's actually read what I posted yesterday.
 
boyfalldown said:
coming from you there is so much irony it that post you must be having a laugh :suspect:
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I do not know POAH on any level, maybe this is ironic coming from POAH, but a valid point has been made nonetheless.
 
awp said:
I find it amusing that it is mostly amateurs who have the strong opinions on how professional photographers should operate - they know nothing about the business of photography yet express these opinions - says a lot about this forum really.

I am not a wedding photographer BTW!
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So true, unfortunately a large proportion of the general public, wouldn't know a decent photo if it jumped up and bit their arses. It just doesn't apply to photography though, there are many professions where joe public think they can do the same job for less (and better) and in some (many?) cases this is true. There are good and bad pro's in every walk of life, the same applies to amateurs. I am sure there are many amateurs who produce PRO quality work but wish to remain amateurs - just look in the galleries section of ANY photo forum.
I used a PRO for my wedding (god! was it that long ago!!!!) and wouldn't have had it any other way, but my sister in law asked me to take some pics at her wedding (no official photographer) and in NO WAY did they approach anything like PRO quality. She new I was the only one in the family that had a photographers eye, so to speak (and no! I don't consider myself to be anything other than average club level) but was willing to accept the limitations. There are those who will spend 10's of thousands on a wedding, there are a lot more who have to limit the spending to a more managable level, and accept the lower quality.
That's life, as Ester Rantsen would say.......
 
dance621 said:
I have to agree with that. But my opinion is that £200 professional photographers are a blessing. Who has £1500 to spend on a few photos that you probably only look at again in 20 years and think to yourself "why the hell did I marry him/her". Weddings cost about £15000 these days. Madness. Some members of the public want a few fairly decent shots. The chelsea lot will always be looking for something special. I am probably going to get cursed but most pro wedding photography is so dull. And what do wedding photographers do for the other 6 days?

Sorry, but wedding photographers annoy me.
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dance621 said:
Too true. I run a couple of portrait studios in berks and hampshire. We have moved into wedding photography. Our pro photographer seems ok but the studio photographers who shoot alongside them as often as not take as good photos. You dont have to be awedding photographer to understand light conditions.
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Is anyone able to reconcile these 2 posts from the same person?
 
Ed Sutton said:
Digital cameras have democratised photography just as the internet has democratised news publication. Those who held the esoteric talents (or had the financial wherewithal) now feel threatened because all they really held were the tools to do their job. Others with talent now have easy access to those tools to produce the same level of presentation - although those with no talent also have the tools to do it, albeit to a lower standard!

The good pro wedding photographers will survive and thrive, just as the good print media will. But they will both need to revise their business models to do so in the modern age. Those who do nothing but bleat will go to the wall.
Click to expand...

:clap:
 
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