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No such thing as a suspended sentence in Scotland as far as I'm aware.
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Potential Jail for old gun collector
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No such thing as a suspended sentence in Scotland as far as I'm aware.
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If thats the case, You're a tough lot up there
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With a sawn off, of course
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I believe the firearms legislation is the same (as it is with Drug and Road Traffic stuff) but the method of punishment and the discretion of the Sheriffs and Judges up here differs and may be formed by our own Stated Cases. I'm no expert (probably should be considering my past
) but I was speaking to someone in the legal profession and that's how I understood it from them.
OP
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Not tough, just f***in' mentalIf thats the case, You're a tough lot up there
BillN_33
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With a sawn off, of course
Is the judge Scottish or English?
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It wouldn't matter HOW the shotguns were stored as they are sawn off, and therefore illegal. Whether he has a certificate or not is academic.
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This is correct. As previously stated Joe Public cannot legally possess a sawn off so a Certificate is irrelevant.
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OK seems strange but OKThere isn't - it's either jail or go "scot" free.
Yep, I just said that.
I can't argue with thatNot tough, just f***in' mental
Either way, if he is being tried in Scotland, then no matter what the nationality of the judge is,
I guess he will have to try under and apply the rules of "the land"
pwhysall
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Good point, chaps.
I only saw "components for a sawn-off" and "another gun in poor condition". The silly sod should have sawn-up the sawn-off, chucked it in the bin, and got an SGC for the knackered-but-legal gun.
BillN_33
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Taking bets, I reckon he will get a (deserved) prison sentence ………… unless they have become "soft" "up there"
from a legal perspective that would be a appropriate
from a cost standpoint it would be less so and the cost of keeping him inside and providing support for his wife would not be insignificant ……….
but, I still reckon, prison
from a legal perspective that would be a appropriate
from a cost standpoint it would be less so and the cost of keeping him inside and providing support for his wife would not be insignificant ……….
but, I still reckon, prison
A scary report, but the suicide rate has NEVER been twice the homicide rate from guns. One other very sad fact, is that in 2010, around 15,000 children were injured by guns in the US, more than three times more than US soldiers injured in Afghanistan.
BillN_33
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aren't components 'worse" - it could be implied that he made them, (sawn off's) ………. it has also been reported that he had a "gun room" with ammunition and ammunition making equipment ……...
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Actually that's also a good point.
Defence counsel Jonathan Crowe said that about 20 years ago a work colleague of Watt,
who knew of his interest in guns, offered him two shotguns.
He took them home to examine than and found the bag also contained the component parts for a sawn-off shotgun.
The only component that makes a "sawn off" is the shortened barrels, the rest, lock & stock if you will
does not make a sawn off.
So now I'm curious, did he have a shot gun with an extra pair of short barrels?
pwhysall
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That's why I said he should have introduced Messrs. BitsOfShotgun to Mister Hacksaw and chucked the resultant small pieces of metal in the bin with his potato peelings.
Nothing wrong or illegal with making your own ammo - have you ever seen someone shooting a shotgun loaded with black powder cartridges? A pleasingly big bang and flames shooting out of the barrel, and a huge cloud of smoke...
...that smells of cat wee
POAH
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you have a conditional discharge and community payback orders - both of which if you break the terms of the sentance you can go to jail so it is similar to a suspended sentance.
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No such thing as a conditional discharge in Scotland either. You can be admonished but there are no conditions attached. Community Service/Payback is a different thing entirely (I know that for a fact - digging gardens, painting OAP's windows and doors etc
). These are actually punishments, they are the sentence and yeh, if you skip them then you may well go to jail but they have no similarity in definition to Suspended Sentences. They are a punishment in their own right.
Byker28i
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Ok so if we take the figures from that report, 31,347 deaths in 2009 of which 18735 were classed as suicides or around 60%.
11, 493 deaths were classed as murder or around 37%
Excuse me for rounding up and down as rough maths in my head whilst on my phone on the app. Point being, there are significantly more suicides than murders.
Byker28i
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I believe the firearms legislation is the same (as it is with Drug and Road Traffic stuff) but the method of punishment and the discretion of the Sheriffs and Judges up here differs and may be formed by our own Stated Cases. I'm no expert (probably should be considering my past
fair enough cheers. I knew you have several different interpretations on law
but I thought the firearms act was one that stood for all the UK. As such the case history and references I got from the CPS should stand as examples of sentencing. Interesting how the copper got a light sentence.
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fair enough cheers. I knew you have several different interpretations on law
Yeh, wheel within wheels
. The CPS findings hold no sway up here at all tho.
Byker28i
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IS the interesting bit. As they were components, were there enough bits to make a sawn off, a franken-shotgun, or amongst his 'collection' was a pair of sawn down barrels and the media are sensationally reporting?
pwhysall
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:massivelyshockedatsuchanoutrageoussuggestionface:
OP
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OK seems strange but OK
Its strange but Scot's law is a completely different kettle of fish to English law. We don't have suspended sentences, but we do give out community service, fines, bans, probation etc.
Garry Edwards
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No, a Section 2 (shotgun) certificate doesn't cover a sawn off shotgun. A shotgun certificate only covers shotguns with a barrel length of not less than 24" (plus some other, perfectly normal requirements).
A sawn off shotgun can only legally be held under a Section 5 certificate, I've never heard of anyone getting a S.5 for a sawn off, and I'm almost certain that nobody ever would, because it's possession could never be justified.
So, the only people who can be in lawful possession of one are the armed police and the military, neither of which are required to hold a certificate.
The mandatory 5 years sentence applies ONLY to guns that can only be held under section 5 - someone who is in unlawful possession of a shotgun that could normally be held under either section 2 (shotgun) or section 1 (the rest, including rifles and certain handguns) is not subject to the 5 year minimum. Section 5 certificates are fairly rare, but they are in fact available for suitable good reason, for example a revolver used for humane despatch.
Personally I hope that he does go to prision, although the mandatory 5 years does seem a bit harsh (based on what little we know). This type of gun only has one use, as a weapon, and there is IMO no excuse for having one.
A sawn off shotgun can only legally be held under a Section 5 certificate, I've never heard of anyone getting a S.5 for a sawn off, and I'm almost certain that nobody ever would, because it's possession could never be justified.
So, the only people who can be in lawful possession of one are the armed police and the military, neither of which are required to hold a certificate.
The mandatory 5 years sentence applies ONLY to guns that can only be held under section 5 - someone who is in unlawful possession of a shotgun that could normally be held under either section 2 (shotgun) or section 1 (the rest, including rifles and certain handguns) is not subject to the 5 year minimum. Section 5 certificates are fairly rare, but they are in fact available for suitable good reason, for example a revolver used for humane despatch.
Personally I hope that he does go to prision, although the mandatory 5 years does seem a bit harsh (based on what little we know). This type of gun only has one use, as a weapon, and there is IMO no excuse for having one.
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Only slightly o/t, a girl I used to know was a defence barrister. She was invited to a country house shoot and handed a shotgun and said "oh no, this is much too big and heavy!" ... and she suddenly realised that the only shotguns she'd ever handled had been sawn off!! 
Blank_Canvas
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Correct - a sawn off is a section 1 firearm.
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I don't think anyone could disagrees with that Garry,
I also have to agree. On the "reported facts"
His age, due to him being a carer etc.
If these are all true with no previous,
That the judge doesn't make an example of him.
viv1969
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Only slightly o/t, a girl I used to know was a defence barrister. She was invited to a country house shoot and handed a shotgun and said "oh no, this is much too big and heavy!" ... and she suddenly realised that the only shotguns she'd ever handled had been sawn off!!
Euphemism. ...poor girl
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Not that i have first hand knowedge either - but a freind of mine who's a cop in texas taes the position on this that " punching holes in targets is one thing but unless you have ice water in your veins shooting like that when you have a demented lunaic running at you with a machete is altogether different... in those circumstances many shooters without combat experience may struggle to even draw their weapons let alone use them to lethal effect"
Garry Edwards
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Thankfully, no experience either, but it makes sense, bladed weapons do seem to strike terror into normal people.
I have a Martini Henry rifle, complete with bayonet (long story, but think Welshman, military family and Rorkes Drift). To me and to those of my shooting friends who have seen it, the rifle is just a rifle, albeit a bigun. But that bayonet is just terrifying, and I can see why bayonet charges have nearly always resulted in the enemy legging it, rather than standing and fighting.
There's just something about the sight of steel coming towards you. And someone who is armed with a knife and who has already decided to use it can move quickly, and the thinking time has already been spent.
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I knew a guy, ran a bodyguard / personal security business.
Long story but on his way home from the pistol club got a call from one of his guys.
A "drug crazed guy" was running amok in a car park, with a machete.
When he arrived the police were no where to be seen, although they had been apparently called
30 odd minutes before, he guessed they were "on way"
This guy that I knew, told the guy to calm down and the fact that he was armed.
(As mentioned above, he was on his way home from the pistol club)
The Machete guy came at him .
So he shot him in the leg once, with a 9mm semi auto,
The machete guy laughed and said (roughly) that didn't hurt, do it again as he took a wild swing.
So he was shot in the other leg.
This put him on the floor,
and he was quickly disarmed of his machete at that point.
Obviously the police eventually turned up and both guys were taken into custody .
Of course this was a totally illegal use of a target pistol.
And he was brought up before a judge.
The judge commended him, on having the presence of mind to only shooting the guy in the legs,
under so much pressure, and potentially saving a few lives, or at the very least some very serious injuries.
He got a "slap" but he kept his licence.
Long story but on his way home from the pistol club got a call from one of his guys.
A "drug crazed guy" was running amok in a car park, with a machete.
When he arrived the police were no where to be seen, although they had been apparently called
30 odd minutes before, he guessed they were "on way"
This guy that I knew, told the guy to calm down and the fact that he was armed.
(As mentioned above, he was on his way home from the pistol club)
The Machete guy came at him .
So he shot him in the leg once, with a 9mm semi auto,
The machete guy laughed and said (roughly) that didn't hurt, do it again as he took a wild swing.
So he was shot in the other leg.
This put him on the floor,
and he was quickly disarmed of his machete at that point.
Obviously the police eventually turned up and both guys were taken into custody .
Of course this was a totally illegal use of a target pistol.
And he was brought up before a judge.
The judge commended him, on having the presence of mind to only shooting the guy in the legs,
under so much pressure, and potentially saving a few lives, or at the very least some very serious injuries.
He got a "slap" but he kept his licence.
OP
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He should have shot the machete dude in the head and then been given a medal - IMHO
Bernie174
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The firearms acts are UK wide, this is sentencing, which is different.
The Sentencing Policy is I think UK wide as well for firearms offences. So, the cases that Byker got from the CPS may well be relevant. But at the end of the day, it depends on what the Judge in this case decides based on the wriggle room he has, or hasn't.
Precedent can be taken on interpretation of law from many sources, if you read case law it can come from any common law jurisdiction that was based on the English model. So you will see interpretation of law bases for example on US case law. But that only relates to the law, not sentence.
The Sentencing Policy is I think UK wide as well for firearms offences. So, the cases that Byker got from the CPS may well be relevant. But at the end of the day, it depends on what the Judge in this case decides based on the wriggle room he has, or hasn't.
Precedent can be taken on interpretation of law from many sources, if you read case law it can come from any common law jurisdiction that was based on the English model. So you will see interpretation of law bases for example on US case law. But that only relates to the law, not sentence.
Garry Edwards
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Actually, it wasn't illegal use of a target pistol.
What it amounted to was using the target pistol other than in accordance with the conditions set out in his Firearms Certificate, which would have given the police a reason to revoke his certificate.
But the actual use of it would amount to self defence, and the need to act in self defence trumps a breach of administrative conditions. The administrative conditions are set out at the discretion of the local Chief Constable, they are not part of statute law or common law.
BillN_33
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That would allow people to legally own a pistol for competitive target shooting and let them get away with carrying it for self defence!
Steve.
Garry Edwards
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No it wouldn't, what it does is to allow anyone who needs to do so to make use of anything that they have immediately to hand in self defence, that's very different.
Also, the conditions attached to Firearms Certificates require firearms to be safely locked up except when in use, when travelling to where they have been or will be used, or when cleaning them, which means that a gun can't be carried for any other reason.
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And of course we all know, save one or two minor exceptions ( .22 target pistols for the Olympics being one, and I'm sure Garry could mention a couple more)
that "private citizens" have no legal right to own handguns since / shortly after the Dunblane tragedy in 1996