Potential Jail for old gun collector

fracster said:
Of course his basement may not be his gun room. He may have left them on the workbench down there for all you or I or anybody else commenting in this thread knows Chris.
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Ah but that's the point, you or I or anyone else DON'T KNOW for sure do we?

Speaking from experience,
I've been in gun rooms larger than my living room,
they were in basements too.
With more security on the entrance than fort knox
(OK that last bit was a bit exaggeration, but posted for sensationalism, just like many other quotes here)

They also contained a work bench, or would that be gun cleaning station?
 
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No we don`t Chris,only the authorities involved know. So nobody on here really knows, but lets not make the minor fact spoil a good old TP argument...........:)

On a more serious note, the possession of a sawn off shotgun, or two, is indefensible as anybody with half a wit should know.
 
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fracster said:
but lets not make the minor fact spoil a good old TP argument...........:)
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Absolutely, Ade we should never let any facts get in the way of a "good argument" right here on TP :D
 
Peter B said:

Richard Watt has sawn-off shotguns found in his Aberdeen home



The advocate depute said: “A double-barreled, side-by-side shotgun and ammunition and various other items relating to the manufacture of ammunition were observed on open display on a workbench.”

.
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so a gun collector with guns that he forgot he had needs ammunition and various other items relating to the manufacture of ammunition ………….does he …. why? or did his mate give him this stuff 20 years ago

We should write up our TP verdict and send it to the Judge!!!
 
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Cobra said:
Absolutely, Ade we should never let any facts get in the way of a "good argument" right here on TP :D
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Either way Chris, the possession of a sawn off cannot be excused. Jeff is right and people trying to defend that are utterly and completely wrong.
 
fracster said:
Either way Chris, the possession of a sawn off cannot be excused. Jeff is right and people trying to defend that are utterly and completely wrong.
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Oh I'm not trying to defend that in the slightest Ade.
And at no point have I defended his actions.

The only part that could be conceived that way, albeit wrongly,
was when I mentioned that maybe the PF may take the fact that he is the carer for his wife.
and that was just a passing comment, like so many other people make,
that tend to be miss-interpreted by others, before going off on a ranting tangent.

And before that is also miss-interpreted, it was purely an observation.
 
BillN_33 said:
We should write up our TP verdict and send it to the Judge!!!
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I think that he has already been hung drawn and quartered ;)

Oh hang on, no the death penalty is also wrong.
Crap!
 
I was not referring to you Chris, you may have mis-interpreted what I meant, or I mis-interpreted what you said or..........bollocks to it, you know what I mean..............:D
 
fracster said:
I was not referring to you Chris, you may have mis-interpreted what I meant, or mis-interpreted what you said or..........b*****ks to it, you know what I mean..............:D
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Lets call it quits there, and start afresh eh Ade ? :D
 
I had a big slap for not registering a spare single shot barrel I puchased, nearly lost my licence. I've never seen a sawn off in use but I can imagine why the Police would be worried.
 
Cobra said:
Lets call it quits there, and start afresh eh Ade ? :D
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OK squire, let me try this............(y)

The possession of a sawn off shot gun,under any circumstances is illegal and the person who has possession of said item,should be prosecuted.

Agree so far?
 
That was never in any question / doubt Ade :thumbs:
 
Thing is, he had a licence in the past and therefore will have known that the sawn offs were illegal.

All guns need to be registered onto a licence. He didn't do this.

No excuses.
 
Byker28i said:
Depends on who's figures you look at. It's thought there are current 110 million active landmines Out in the fields, with around 2000 involved, around 800 killed 1200 injured every month.
http://newint.org/easier-english/landmine/lmfacts.html

Your figures for deaths in the us makes it sounds like it it murder when actually around 2/3rds of deaths are suicides. There are actually around 10000 deaths from homicide by guns.
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You have totally ignored the fact that many people die from "accidental" deaths caused by firearms in the USA - I quoted the homicide figure, which does not include the very many people who have been let off killing someone.
Your reasoning is very like that of the NRA, who trot out all manner of reasons why "murkins" should be able to carry guns.
 
Using state produced figures, rather than those from the pro or anti gun lobbies are more trustworthy, or less sensationalist. 306 million people in the us, research by congress estimated 310 million firearms in the us of which 114million were handguns.

Around 30,000 people die by guns every year, of which approximately 20,000 are suicides, 10,000 are murders of which around 65% are committed with hand guns, 25% unknown or un recorded and approx 10% with rifles,

Compare that to the uk, where firearms are heavily restricted and we have around 35-40 murders from firearms, but around 11,000 incidents involving them. We have one of the lowest rates of murder by guns in the world.

The anti gun lobby will always compare our figures with all deaths in the us.
 
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big soft moose said:
tbh the guns can't be linked to a crime - balistic comparrison isnt possible with a shotgun like it with a rifle or hand gun. Seems unlikely anyone would ruin a perfectly good shot gun unless they had a criminal purpose in mind.

if his story is true then 'his mate' may have used them for criminal purposes when they were younger
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That's not strictly true. You can link a shotgun to a shooting.
 
Further to the above there have been a number of convictions over the years where it can be conclusively proved that a shotgun has been discharged and the offenders have received jail sentences.
 
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Byker28i said:
Around 30,000 people die by guns every year, of which approximately 20,000 are suicides, 10,000 are murders of which around 65% are committed with hand guns, 25% unknown or un recorded and approx 10% with rifles,
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So, you seriously expect us to believe, that of the 30,000 gun deaths, 10,000 are murders and 20,000 are suicides?
You have conveniently ignored the "accidents" and the gun deaths which are not counted as murder - police shooting, "self defence", manslaughter.
 
Sorry was posting on my phone this morning so rounded up figures rather than provide detailed numbers from the reports, as cut and paste is a real pain on the tp app.

I'll find the Congressional report and give th edetails figures for you, but yes, deaths classed as suicide are 2:1 in the US compared to murders.
 
here you go andy. It's one of the more detailed reports on the true impacts of guns on the American society.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL32842.pdf

Published November 14th 2012, it's the most recent research into the subject.
Gun related statistics are page 7 onwards, but rather than cherry pick, the whole report makes interesting reading
 
fracster said:
OK squire, let me try this............(y)

The possession of a sawn off shot gun,under any circumstances is illegal and the person who has possession of said item,should be prosecuted.

Agree so far?
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It's the punishment I suspect I differ on opinion. He shouldn't get the jail given his age/lack of priors/storage of the gun/it's lack of use
 
ST4 said:
It's the punishment I suspect I differ on opinion. He shouldn't get the jail given his age/lack of priors/storage of the gun/it's lack of use
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That is for a judge to decide.
 
It seems that a 5 year sentence is mandatory unless there are exceptional circumstances, but also that he is of previous good character and unlikely to re-offend.
Is it possible to suspend the sentence in a case like this?

It's a genuine question, I've no axe to grind either way.
 
ST4 said:
It's the punishment I suspect I differ on opinion. He shouldn't get the jail given his age/lack of priors/storage of the gun/it's lack of use
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fracster said:
That is for a judge to decide.
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Indeed it is the Judges call,
But I think there is a little room for common sense to be applied too.

No one can dispute the fact the he had unlicensed / illegal guns.
Its seems that he has had them for "some years" too,
none of which appeared to have been fired, for "quite a long time"
(What ever that is)
They may or may not have been secured in a gun room.
(Basement as the press put it.)

He is 76 we have no idea of his state of health,
but its possible that he could die in prison if sentenced to five years.

Plus the fact that he is the Carer for his wife.
Take him out of the equation and what happens to her?
Do we the state then have to pay for another professional carer?

The mob does seem to be baying for blood here,
very much like the recent sex abuse cases,
Lock 'em up and throw away the key, type comments.

All that seemed to have happened is that he is in possession of illegal "equipment"
That apparently has never harmed a single person.

Lets hope the judge is not Judge Jeffrey's ;)
 
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Don't sentence him until after "the vote" - if "fat" Alex wins hand it over to his wisdom


so we can bring into the thread, gun control, Scottish Independent, Sex cases, shotgun licensing etc., etc., etc., etc.

Apologises to anyone called "Alex"
 
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That won't happen up here.
 
Actually looking throgh case law:

Hudson [1998] 1 Cr.App.R.(S.) 124
G plea to possessing a firearm without a certificate. D arrested on suspicion of assault. On searching his house police find a loaded sawn-off shotgun and cartridges. D said he bought the gun for protection. It was established the gun had never been fired. 5 years reduced to 4 years imprisonment.

Holmes [1999] 2 Cr.App.R.(S.) 383
G plea before a magistrates' court possession of a firearm whilst a prohibited person, possession of a shortened shotgun without a certificate, and possession of a loaded shotgun in a public place. Police find a loaded sawn off shotgun and ammunition in a hire car that was traced back to D. Sentenced to two and a half years imprisonment.

Herbert [2001] 1Cr.App.R.(S.) 21
G plea to possessing a shortened shotgun and to possessing a firearm before expiration of five years from release form prison. A search a D's address revealed a sawn-off shotgun hidden in a bed with a number of live cartridges. D claimed to be 'minding' items for a man he was terrified of and received £50. At Newton hearing, basis rejected. 4 years imprisonment upheld although there was no evidence of any contemplated offence the court was entitled to assume that it was for an unlawful use should the occasion arise
 
You are forgetting that's all under English Law. It's different up here.
 
Again Chris, that is for a judge to decide after all the evidence had been presented. Evidence that none of us know at this moment in time.

should leniency be shown? if the facts are as stated with regards his personal circumstances, then I see no good in sending the guy to prison. Saying that, he must charged as per the laws of the land. Not to do so sets a dangerous benchmark.

I'm not baying for blood nor suffering from mob mentality Chris. I genuinely believe that the man knew he was in the wrong and should be dealt with by the relevant laws. His sentence is an entirely different matter, as stated above, the judge will do that after hearing all the facts. That is how the law works mate.
 
fracster said:
Again Chris, that is for a judge to decide after all the evidence had been presented. Evidence that none of us know at this moment in time.
should leniency be shown? if the facts are as stated with regards his personal circumstances, then I see no good in sending the guy to prison. Saying that, he must charged as per the laws of the land. Not to do so sets a dangerous benchmark.
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Again, as per my post above, we are in complete agreement Ade.

fracster said:
I'm not baying for blood nor suffering from mob mentality Chris. I genuinely believe that the man knew he was in the wrong and should be dealt with by the relevant laws. His sentence is an entirely different matter, as stated above, the judge will do that after hearing all the facts. That is how the law works mate.
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That wasn't aimed at anyone just a generalisation Ade ;)
Let me quantify that, its amazing, some threads would have some people hung drawn and quartered for some alleged offences,
other go on to say that prison is no deterrent or indeed is not an answer.
 
The bit I don't get about this case is why on earth did he not have an SGC? It's not like they're hard to get. He'd then be just looking at a finger-wagging for not storing the shotguns properly.

The pistol would be more problematic, although as a historic weapon it might be possible to get it covered by a FAC.

Hindsight, eh?
 
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