Potential Jail for old gun collector

Cobra said:
Not convinced, when I was shooting practical pistol, regularly,
my fastest draw from a holster, (Double action, ie hammer down) and "bullseye" time from 10 meters, with a colt '45 ACP
was 0.76 secs.
And I wasn't the fastest in the club.
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I'd love to see the Bell Curve of times of American pistol owners. ;)
 
simon ess said:
I'd love to see the Bell Curve of times of American pistol owners. ;)
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Apparently Allegedly
So I'm led to believe, they just spray and pray ;)

Obviously this was done "under the pressure" of competition.
Cardboard targets do not shoot back or throw knives ;)
 
Cobra said:
Apparently Allegedly
So I'm led to believe, they just spray and pray ;)

Obviously this was done "under the pressure" of competition.
Cardboard targets do not shoot back or throw knives ;)
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Did you have your hand on the pistol to start with, and would you walk like that with gun sticking out on the street? I hope at least one answer is a 'no'
 
daugirdas said:
Did you have your hand on the pistol to start with, and would you walk like that with gun sticking out on the street? I hope at least one answer is a 'no'
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Hands are not permitted to touch any part of the gun or holster before the "beep".
The gun was not sticking out anywhere but in a holster strapped to my side.
This was on a ministry approved range.
 
Cobra said:
Hands are not permitted to touch any part of the gun or holster before the "beep".
The gun was not sticking out anywhere but in a holster strapped to my side.
This was on a ministry approved range.
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Clarify please. Do you hold your hands right up the gun or in some other specific position? And I imagine you don't have to unzip your jacket, etc to reach for the holster and it would be visible to the public, ie this situation wouldn't happen in real life.
 
daugirdas said:
Clarify please. Do you hold your hands right up the gun or in some other specific position? And I imagine you don't have to unzip your jacket, etc to reach for the holster and it would be visible to the public, ie this situation wouldn't happen in real life.
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In this instance, this was not real life,
and I refuse to be drawn into an anti gun slanging match with you.
 
daugirdas said:
Clarify please. Do you hold your hands right up the gun or in some other specific position? And I imagine you don't have to unzip your jacket, etc to reach for the holster and it would be visible to the public, ie this situation wouldn't happen in real life.
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Of course it wouldn't happen in real life! :rolleyes:

This is England!
 
BillN_33 said:
madness

East of Syria and in Northern Iraq, the latest "killing fields"

Self defence?

_76841985_76841980.jpg
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One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I'm sure they'll see it as defending their religious freedom.
Which is why generally armed conflict always has to be resolved with rhetoric.

Conflict is always inevitable, not just within humans but also other animals, its the competition. Man unfortunately has been rather good at finding ways of doing it easily and efficiently.
But before we go off down the gun route, lets also briefly consider the number killed or injured by guns, to those from bombs, land mines etc.

The difference with guns is the control, in an ordered society. Once you make their availability easy, they can get into the hands of those without the levels of self control needed to own or use them.
This isn't just criminals, annoyed teenagers etc. I've been on shoots where gentry have been waving around loaded shotguns and a gentle reminder is constantly needed.
 
Cobra said:
Not convinced, when I was shooting practical pistol, regularly,
my fastest draw from a holster, (Double action, ie hammer down) and "bullseye" time from 10 meters, with a colt '45 ACP
was 0.76 secs.
And I wasn't the fastest in the club.
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American copper, got to put down what ever he's eating, find the gun under his belly... :D

Police on both sides with side arms have the weapon clipped in (classing tasers as weapons here in the uk). hand down to the holster, undo the clip, pull out the weapon, at least 1.5-2 secs.
It's not a competition where the weapon is ready, in a slippery holster...
 
PatrickO said:
Is there any normal legal use for a sawn off shotgun?
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Legally they are short barrel shotguns. In america the barrel length must be a minimum of eighteen inches and an overall length of the gun of 27 inches (the stock usually gets shortened also). In the uk it's a barrel length of 24 inches but no limitation on length, so shortend stocks, or pistol grips, are legal, if it's a semi auto, or pump action. If not, it's 12 inches, which is incredible short.

Short barrelled shotguns are used for specific operations in the military and police forces around the world. As an entry weapon, sold slug or breaching rounds to take off locks, hinges from doors etc, or as a room clearance weapon with a huge spread from the shortened barrels. I've been in parts of northern italy where I was surprised to find farmers favour them for taking out large flocks of crows, or that may have been pub talk.
 
Cobra said:
When I was shooting practical pistol, regularly,
my fastest draw from a holster, (Double action, ie hammer down) and "bullseye" time from 10 meters, with a colt '45 ACP
was 0.76 secs.
And I wasn't the fastest in the club.
Click to expand...


Bob Munden's record is still safe then ;)

 
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Byker28i said:
American copper, got to put down what ever he's eating, find the gun under his belly... :D..
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Ooooh....shouldn't that be in the "kill Clarkson" thread? :lol:
 
Byker28i said:
One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I'm sure they'll see it as defending their religious freedom.
Which is why generally armed conflict always has to be resolved with rhetoric.

Conflict is always inevitable, not just within humans but also other animals, its the competition. Man unfortunately has been rather good at finding ways of doing it easily and efficiently.
But before we go off down the gun route, lets also briefly consider the number killed or injured by guns, to those from bombs, land mines etc.

The difference with guns is the control, in an ordered society. Once you make their availability easy, they can get into the hands of those without the levels of self control needed to own or use them.
This isn't just criminals, annoyed teenagers etc. I've been on shoots where gentry have been waving around loaded shotguns and a gentle reminder is constantly needed.
Click to expand...

The amount of people killed by landmines averages out at around 7,000 a year - which is pretty horrific IMO.

http://www.the-monitor.org/index.php/publications/display?url=lm/2009/es/mine_casualties.html

However, the number of people killed by guns in just the USA each year is around 32.000

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter

Bearing in mind that the US would say that they have adequate gun controls, words cannot express how obscene that statistic is.
 
andy700 said:
Bearing in mind that the US would say that they have adequate gun controls, words cannot express how obscene that statistic is.
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And many Americans don't even like the idea of a national register of who owns what, suggesting that it would be an infringement of their liberties.


Steve.
 
he has had (this) sawn-off shotgun for 20 years, it was his mate's according to him ..........???

what do you make sawn-off shotguns from ........... he has two of them

just because he is 76 is irrelevant ...... what he did in the past needs checking etc., as does his background and he needs to name his mate

nobody in there right mind would own a sawn-off as part of a "gun" collection ........ was he really a gun collector?

his "gun collections" seems very limited ........... has he ever held the appropriate licences for any guns in his possession?

what has "old geezer" got to do with it, Ronnie Briggs and The Krays became "old geezers"
 
ST4 said:
They'll find nothing wrong with his past, he's just an old eccentric being persecuted for his odd but harmless interests.
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No. He's being dealt with because he broke the law. Same as you and I were when we did.
 
BRASH said:
No. He's being dealt with because he broke the law. Same as you and I were when we did.
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Aye, but 5 years in the clink...seems a bit tough. Have they any unsolved murders relating to sawn of shot guns up there, doubt it, as he'd be being questioned for that and the news would read differently. The guns should be decommissioned and promptly returned to him.
 
Not the point is it? His possession of the gun/s is the crime completed, it don't matter if they've ever been used. Remember it's the Government who's set the tariffs for this crime.
 
ST4 said:
I hope the Sherriff see's sense and doesn't put him in the pokey and finds a lesser punishment, acceptable.
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I'd be very surprised if he don't get jailed. The Sheriffs hands are tied unless he can construe exceptional circumstances.
 
Harold Shipman was a respected member of the community...
 
Nod said:
Harold Shipman was a respected member of the community...
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And it was proved that he murdered many people.
Shall we at least keep the comparisons, you know, sane? :lol:
 
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A bit more information on this from the local daily, the Press & Journal https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/f...aces-jail-police-find-sawn-shotguns-basement/

A pensioner is facing a five-year jail sentence after leaving guns “gathering dust” in his basement.
Police found a corroded sawn-off shotgun, another shotgun in poor condition and an antique pistol during a search at Richard Watt’s home.
The 76-year-old admitted possessing a prohibited weapon and possessing a gun while not holding a shotgun certificate when he appeared at the High Court in Edinburgh yesterday.


Richard Watt has sawn-off shotguns found in his Aberdeen home

Judge Lord Burns told the former gun enthusiast: “Parliament has dictated that unless exceptional circumstances exist, a minimum sentence of five years should be imposed.”

Advocate depute Susanne Tanner, prosecuting, told the court that Watt had no previous convictions and was the main carer for his disabled wife Patricia.

The prosecutor said that in September last year police received information that Watt had told another person that he had a sawn-off shotgun.

The couple’s home Aberdeen’s Corthan Crescent has a basement accessed through a hatch in the entrance hall and when officers searched the premises they saw a small room in the basement which contained weapons.

The advocate depute said: “A double-barreled, side-by-side shotgun and ammunition and various other items relating to the manufacture of ammunition were observed on open display on a workbench.”

Watt was interviewed and said he called the basement his “gun room”.

The weapons were sent for examination and the sawn-off shotgun was found to be capable of firing cartridges, although it was in poor condition.

The muzzle-loading pistol was considered to be obsolete and an “antique firearm” which could be freely possessed if kept as an ornament or curiosity.

Watt’s counsel, advocate Jonathan Crowe, said the retired plumbing and heating engineer had been a long-time gun enthusiast and had owned a large number of weapons throughout the years.

The lawyer added: “He has held firearms certificates, having undergone the stringent checks police are bound to carry out.”

Mr Crowe said that latterly he had not been involved in “the gun scene” and had relinquished his firearms certificate and sold a collection of pistols.

He said Watt thought he would put shotguns given to him by a work colleague in his cellar and “forget about them”.

He said they lay there gathering dust and added: “There is no suggestion the guns were recently used or fired.”

Lord Burns deferred sentence on Watt for background reports, but told him not to read anything into the fact he had been granted bail.
 
Peter B said:
A bit more information on this from the local daily, the Press & Journal ..............

Lord Burns deferred sentence on Watt for background reports, but told him not to read anything into the fact he had been granted bail.
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Its not looking terrible hopeful for nothing more than a slapped wrist it it?
Still, illegal possession, is illegal possession.

But one would hope this would go some way in a "more lenient" sentence

and was the main carer for his disabled wife Patricia.
 
viv1969 said:
And it was proved that he murdered many people.
Shall we at least keep the comparisons, you know, sane? :LOL:
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Steve said that the gentleman with the sawn off was "a quiet old man with no priors with an odd hobby"... Appearances can be deceptive. The fact that Mrs Watt is disabled and Mr Watt is her main carer will hopefully be seen as exceptional circumstances.
 
So it actually turns out that he would have known that the shotguns were illegal then?

Perhaps (if he hasn't already) he should be telling the Police who his work mate is too.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
So it actually turns out that he would have known that the shotguns were illegal then?

Perhaps (if he hasn't already) he should be telling the Police who his work mate is too.
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I'd have done that at the first opportunity when I realised what the penalty for possession was!
 
andy700 said:
The amount of people killed by landmines averages out at around 7,000 a year - which is pretty horrific IMO.

http://www.the-monitor.org/index.php/publications/display?url=lm/2009/es/mine_casualties.html

However, the number of people killed by guns in just the USA each year is around 32.000

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/21/american-gun-out-control-porter

Bearing in mind that the US would say that they have adequate gun controls, words cannot express how obscene that statistic is.
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Depends on who's figures you look at. It's thought there are current 110 million active landmines Out in the fields, with around 2000 involved, around 800 killed 1200 injured every month.
http://newint.org/easier-english/landmine/lmfacts.html

Your figures for deaths in the us makes it sounds like it it murder when actually around 2/3rds of deaths are suicides. There are actually around 10000 deaths from homicide by guns.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
So it actually turns out that he would have known that the shotguns were illegal then?.
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He'd be a total fool not to realise, so I guess the answer is yes.

Tigger.ufo said:
Perhaps (if he hasn't already) he should be telling the Police who his work mate is too.
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Absolutely!

Byker28i said:
Depends on who's figures you look at.
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Thats what I love about statistics.
;)

Statisticians, like artists, have the bad habit of falling in love with their models. – George Box
 
sorry but he deserves to have the book thrown at him with no mercy ,on the basis that (1) he has had the guns for 20 years ,during that time there have been various police amnesties that he would have been aware of ,(2) he has had a firearms certificate in the past so was fully aware of the law.(3) he did not even have the guns or ammo in a locked cabinet as per no2 would require .

the reason given that he is/was just a collector/enthusiast just does not wash on the basis of the previous notes as such he would have been aware that a robbery at his house could lead to some very lethal weapons on the streets ,a gun is made with one intention only to kill or injure nothing else pure and simple .

a sawn off shotgun is the worst weapon of them all as it would have a spread pattern of shot of over six feet circumference within a range of ten feet from the barrel end ,depending on the length its been cut to at close range even more lethal than a machine gun which would need to be aimed to hit the target with a sawn off just point in the general direction and fire .

if you can't do the time don't do the crime .end of
 
the black fox said:
(3) he did not even have the guns or ammo in a locked cabinet as per no2 would require .
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Generally I agree, but you can also have a "gun room" to store your guns,
as long as it is very secure.
And of course a firearms officer will say Yay or Nay at the time of inspection.
The comment "in the basement" would suggest that this may be a "gun room"
Of course "Basement" is more sensational than "gun room" ;)
 
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Cobra said:
Generally I agree, but you can also have a "gun room" to store your guns,
as long as it is very secure.
And of course a firearms officer will say Yay or Nay at the time of inspection.
The comment "in the basement" would suggest that this may be a "gun room"
Of course "Basement" is more sensational than "gun room" ;)
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Of course his basement may not be his gun room. He may have left them on the workbench down there for all you or I or anybody else commenting in this thread knows Chris.

I think Jeff is absolutely spot on in his post above.
 
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