police shoot 12 year old

Bernie174 said:
Gramps, you claimed a number of times to have been a policeman, I really am having difficulty believing you.
Yes, asking if someone is black or white is a standard question, usually after what sex, followed by how old, how tall, whats he/she wearing. Contrary to popular belief there is nothing 'wrong' with either of those 2 words, they are perfectly acceptable ways of describing someone.
PNC version 1's input parameters were Name/DOB/Sex/Colour and that only took black or white!
Now please get off your high bloody horse! The question was perfectly valid for perfectly obvious reasons!
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I'm not concerned whether you believe me or not, makes no difference.
Read the transcript ... 1st question "is he black or white" ... you say as a police officer speaking to a member of the public that would be the way you did it, first question?
Maybe you did ... maybe you contributed to the Met reputation of being 'institutionally rascist', I don't know ... but in my time serving in a major multicultural city, which sadly has experienced race-riots, it would have been totally unacceptable to respond to a report from a member of the public with that question.
"Can you give me a description Sir/Madam?", followed by helpful suggestions to jog the thought process ... yes, absolutely, but "is he black or white" first question ... never!
 
gramps said:
Read the transcript ... 1st question "is he black or white" ... you say as a police officer speaking to a member of the public that would be the way you did it, first question?
Maybe you did ...
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TBH as a member of Joe public I can see both sides of this,
but again if that was the first question I was asked in an "interview"
whether that was face to face or over the phone,
I wouldn't be offended.

Surely the Police would want to start with the most identifying feature ?
If the Perp was white, black, mixed, blue, purple or luminous green that's easy to spot.
Height, yes I could make an "educated guess" within a few inches.
age yes I could probably narrow that down within 5-10 years
Hair colour, if its dark no chance unless of course that also was luminous green.

Of course I stand to be corrected by either of you professionals.
 
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mindcrime said:
Well, in 2 1/2 hours time most questions, maybe will be answered as Cleveland Police are releasing surveillance video of the incident.
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Will be interesting to see and clear up questions, as you say :)
 
Cobra said:
TBH as a member of Joe public I can see both sides of this,
but again if that was the first question I was asked in an "interview"
whether that was face to face or over the phone,
I wouldn't be offended.

Surely the Police would want to start with the most identifying feature ?
If the Perp was white, black, mixed, blue, purple or luminous green that's easy to spot.
Height, yes I could make an "educated guess" within a few inches.
age yes I could probably narrow that down within 5-10 years
Hair colour, if its dark no chance unless of course that also was luminous green.

Of course I stand to be corrected by either of you professionals.
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"Can you give me a description please?" ... standard question ... no half-aware police officer would answer immediately with "is he black or white?"! Of course the question of colour and many other aspects of description will present itself if the person reporting the event is not very forthcoming on this.
It's not whether you would be offended, it's a question of public perception/force perception of such an immediate response, a response that could be considered as extremely rascist.
 
Fair do's @gramps

And as you said its all a matter of perception (y)
 
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Funny how police describe someone as a white Caucasian male, 5foot9 mid 30's... but say black african american and your racist. This thread had gotten so far off the real question its laughable. What woukd you have done? I dont care if its a guy or girl or if there muilticoloured. If they have a 'gun' (clearly you cant tell from the distance if its real) then its you vs them. You give them a chance to drop it as you have to.. they dont you shoot. Why? Because its you vs them
 
barratt1988 said:
Funny how police describe someone as a white Caucasian male, 5foot9 mid 30's... but say black african american and your racist. This thread had gotten so far off the real question its laughable. What woukd you have done? I dont care if its a guy or girl or if there muilticoloured. If they have a 'gun' (clearly you cant tell from the distance if its real) then its you vs them. You give them a chance to drop it as you have to.. they dont you shoot. Why? Because its you vs them
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Not funny at all, that's giving an accurate description, either way, black or white.
When it's a young boy and the report says its probably a fake gun you take extra care to ensure there is no fatality ... the 'you vs them' is much further down the line than a kid with a suspected fake gun not shooting or threatening you.

Now if the report of a surveillance video being released is correct and we see the boy turn the fake gun toward the police or public then it's an altogether different issue but if it's just a question of him not dropping the gun then IMO death is premature.
 
gramps said:
Not funny at all, that's giving an accurate description, either way, black or white.
When it's a young boy and the report says its probably a fake gun you take extra care to ensure there is no fatality ... the 'you vs them' is much further down the line than a kid with a suspected fake gun not shooting or threatening you.

Now if the report of a surveillance video being released is correct and we see the boy turn the fake gun toward the police or public then it's an altogether different issue but if it's just a question of him not dropping the gun then IMO death is premature.
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Why dont you pop over to america. Visit the projects and see if its just a kid. If you werent there you cant say if it was premature. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Its a tragedy but as much as i feel for the family if the kid i feel for the policeman having to live with this
 
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barratt1988 said:
Why dont you pop over to america. Visit the projects and see if its just a kid. If you werent there you cant say if it was premature. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Its a tragedy but as much as i feel for the family if the kid i feel for the policeman having to live with this
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You can't say any different either, hopefully the video will show us both exactly what took place ... a 12 year-old boy with a fake gun is dead, that's premature in my mind.
 
gramps said:
You can't say any different either, hopefully the video will show us both exactly what took place ... a 12 year-old boy with a fake gun is dead, that's premature in my mind.
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Good. And in my mind if someone threated the life of me or my family id take theres if i had to
 
barratt1988 said:
Funny how police describe someone as a white Caucasian male, 5foot9 mid 30's... but say black african american and your racist. This thread had gotten so far off the real question its laughable. What woukd you have done? I dont care if its a guy or girl or if there muilticoloured. If they have a 'gun' (clearly you cant tell from the distance if its real) then its you vs them. You give them a chance to drop it as you have to.. they dont you shoot. Why? Because its you vs them
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Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6
 
Simple really. It is better to be tried by a jury of 12 rather than carried to your grave by 6
 
I fear that the riots and looting are fuelled by many with an agenda which conveniently ignores the probability that the police officer reacted in self-defence, in fact in order to prevent his own very serious and possibly fatal injury.

All they hear is that the so-called victim was a 12yo black boy shot dead by police, and they cover their ears to any detailed description of circumstances. They are utterly prejudiced in that they refuse to listen to or digest further information. Furthermore, they won't accept the objective findings of a court anyway.
 
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RedRobin said:
I fear that the riots and looting are fuelled by many with an agenda
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Isn't that the case everywhere?
We have certainly seen it in the UK and in many, many other places worldwide.
There will be some there who see it as an extension of the white v black issue that has been seen in the US for many, many years and is still clearly evident in some areas 'down south' ... others, as you say, will just use it as an occasion to cause havoc.
 
gramps said:
Isn't that the case everywhere?
We have certainly seen it in the UK and in many, many other places worldwide.
There will be some there who see it as an extension of the white v black issue that has been seen in the US for many, many years and is still clearly evident in some areas 'down south' ... others, as you say, will just use it as an occasion to cause havoc.
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....Indeed, with tragic consequences, it is the case in many countries worldwide. It is the downside of democracy and plays to those with anarchic political agendas - Usually a leftwing distorted liberal ideology.

:)
 
white v black
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You use that expression and it's OK.
A Police Officer does and it's not?
Strange.

Anyway, you're talking absolute rubbish Gramps. It's a perfectly acceptable way of getting information quickly, not waiting for someone to struggle through what they think you want.
 
Different context Bernie and yes a police officer must be seen to be whiter than white ... you do realise that don't you?
Were you a police officer or a civilian operator?
 
Bernie174 said:
You use that expression and it's OK.
A Police Officer does and it's not?
Strange.

Anyway, you're talking absolute rubbish Gramps. It's a perfectly acceptable way of getting information quickly, not waiting for someone to struggle through what they think you want.
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Maybe this is what happened when you were in the police Bernie, when saying something like RC3 was normal and acceptable, maybe the police have changed since then.
 
Bernie174 said:
It's a perfectly acceptable way of getting information quickly, not waiting for someone to struggle through what they think you want.
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....And nowadays some members of the public will hesitate to describe whether a person is black or other colour for fear of being branded a racist! How ridiculous is that!

Any description of anything which helps enquiries surely starts off with the broadest of description and then gradually more information fills in finer detail so that ultimately an accurate description is obtained. Very often the average person needs prompting and assistance in giving information. They may be emotionally disturbed and not thinking calmly too.
 
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No Gramps, clearly unlike you, I was a proper Police Officer. I'll mention to Hants Police then shall I, Gramps is a little peed off you used the expressions Black and white when you asked me about the chap breaking into the car outside my house a couple of weeks ago. It's clearly unprofessional, wrong racist and lots of other things.
Alternatively Gramps, it could be you made an idiot of yourself by not considering that it was simply Police trying to get information quickly, like they do everywhere else apart from your world, and tried to make it into something it clearly isn't.

Garry, we've established your knowledge of policing is zero. It's not been used since the 1970's, it was replaced with IC a very long time ago, and yes that is still used. Along with very simple questions to get the description of a suspect quickly, what sex? what colour black/white/asian/chinese (last 2 not really needed with crime in my part of Lambeth!)?, about how old? wearing what? carrying what? etc. They are intended to get what the Police officer needs fast, especially with something like male with a firearm, where its urgent.

What no one has the time to do in those circumstances is listen to someone struggle to get over what they think police need. It often isn't, and certainly isn't in the first instance.
 
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Someone is making an idiot of themselves Bernie, you still seem unable to understand what has been said and are putting your own spin on it ... oh wait a minute...
 
The current rioting isn't directly related to the shooting of the child who is the subject of this thread.
 
Bernie174 said:
You use that expression and it's OK.
A Police Officer does and it's not?
Strange.

Anyway, you're talking absolute rubbish Gramps. It's a perfectly acceptable way of getting information quickly, not waiting for someone to struggle through what they think you want.
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For once I can agree with Bernie. If I was asked to describe a burglar, thug I would start with "He/she was a white/black pick the rest, guy/girl about 20/30 etc about 4'2"/10'6" tall wearing a green ... etc
 
ChasG said:
For once I can agree with Bernie. If I was asked to describe a burglar, thug I would start with "He/she was a white/black pick the rest, guy/girl about 20/30 etc about 4'2"/10'6" tall wearing a green ... etc
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If you, were asked to describe a person you may well do that ... but a police officer in the UK would be extremely unlikely to ask you, "was he/she black or white" as the first question ... that's the difference.
 
gramps said:
If you, were asked to describe a person you may well do that ... but a police officer in the UK would be extremely unlikely to ask you, "was he/she black or white" as the first question ... that's the difference.
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I'm still not seeing the relevance of this, given this is the UK and this event happened in the US.
 
ST4 said:
I'm still not seeing the relevance of this, given this is the UK and this event happened in the US.
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Started back around #42 ... do try to keep up! :)
 
Gramps this was not meant to be against your comment - perhaps I should have quoted - my apologies.

I intended to convey that, if asked in the UK, I think most people would use my template.
 
ChasG said:
Gramps this was not meant to be against your comment - perhaps I should have quoted - my apologies.
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No offence taken :)

ST4 said:
Like you I think the race of the perp should have no outcome on the policing but race is a perfectly good descriptor to use to help indetify someone.
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I'm having difficulty in helping some to see the difference in a witness offering a description including skin colour and a police officer asking that as a first question ... I'm beginning to lose the will to continue trying. :)
 
gramps said:
a 12 year-old boy with a fake gun is dead, that's premature in my mind.
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as i said before how many times in your life have you had a gun pointed at you - by someone who you believed would pull the trigger

or for that matter how many times have you been in a situation where that was likely tohappen unles you acted

if the answer to thiose is zero you have no business criticising the decision making process the police offers went through , because you are judging a situation in hindsight with ample time and access to full information .... if those cops had that too then of course they wouldnt have fired, but they didnt they had limited info and even more limited time tomake a life or death decision , and you don't appear to hae any idea what thats like.

yes its very tragic that a 12 year old is dead, but perhaps if he hadnt had the fake gun in the first place.....
 
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mindcrime said:
http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-...g-cleveland-police-release-surveillance-video

Looks like the kid walked towards the police car and went to draw the gun.

**MOD EDIT**
View with caution, Pt 4 especially
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You've got better eyesight than me ... I was hoping that the video would make me feel easier, it doesn't.
The final moments appear to me to be concealed by the police vehicle and the video quality is poor ... I accept my eyes aren't as good as they were so I may have missed the vital moment ... video shows what looks like a bored kid who spent most of the time sitting on a park bench!
As I said originally, whatever the truth, a real tragedy :(
 
Gramps, did you watch the first 3 parts of the video? He's no bored kid spending most of his time on a park bench. He's walking around the street pointing the gun at people walking by? Even when he's in the bandstand, he points the gun towards someone in the distance.
 
gramps said:
... I accept my eyes aren't as good as they were so I may have missed the vital moment ... video shows what looks like a bored kid who spent most of the time sitting on a park bench!
As I said originally, whatever the truth, a real tragedy :(
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A tragedy indeed!
I agree mostly the video is of what appears to be a bored kid,
throwing the occasional snowball,
but also swinging a "gun" around on his finger and tossing it in the air at one point too.
But also he does point it at someone walking by.
There is a "moment" if you watch closely, hence the warning about Pt4 @ 1:40
 
mindcrime said:
. He's walking around the street pointing the gun at people walking by
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in america its a wonder a passer by didnt shoot him first
 
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