police shoot 12 year old

gramps said:
Never mind what he's doing with it, he was 12 and now he is dead ... everything should have been done to prevent it getting to that stage.
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I think what he is doing with it is a crucial question to ask and the crux of the matter. If he hadn't carried an imitation gun and had complied with the police he wouldn't have been shot.

The officer was in the line of fire and had a perp with something that could have been a loaded gun not complying with police requests. What was he supposed to do?
 
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ST4 said:
I think what he is doing with it is a crucial question to ask and the crux of the matter. If he hadn't carried an imitation gun and had complied with the police he wouldn't have been shot.

The officer was in the line of fire and had a perp with something that could have been a loaded gun not complying with police requests. What was he supposed to do?
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There all all sorts of reasons why he was shot but a sound reason why he should not have been until every possible avenue had been explored, within the time possible ... I wonder if he would be dead if he had been white?
 
gramps said:
He's was the same age as two of my grandsons, no doubt having he had all of the same silliness and lack of maturity that they have ... everything should have been done to prevent this killing ... and the outrage that will follow!
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indeed - starting with his parents not allowing him access to an airsoft replica if he was too silly not to take it to school ,
 
gramps said:
There all all sorts of reasons why he was shot but a sound reason why he should not have been until every possible avenue had been explored, within the time possible ... I wonder if he would be dead if he had been white?
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or indeed if he'd been dead if he'd not been holding a replica gun , his colour isnt really the germane factor here (do we know the race of the officers involved ?)

I take it you've never had a gun pointed at you - speaking as someone who has twice , i can tell you that you don't have the time to "explore every possible avenue"

The officers made a decision within their rules of engagement - okay in retrospect it was the wrong one but based on the information they had at the time imo they were correct to fire... having made that decision they'll have to live with it and be subjected to any ammount of monday morning quarterbacking from people with the benefit of hindsight , all the time in the world to consider options, and no real idea what the situation they are disecting is like
 
gramps said:
There all all sorts of reasons why he was shot but a sound reason why he should not have been until every possible avenue had been explored, within the time possible ... I wonder if he would be dead if he had been white?
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With someone who's job is to protect public safety and who's in the direct line of fire who's facing someone who's not complying with your requests and who could be carrying a loaded gun, what would you do?

He shouted twice, that is exploring every avenue.
 
gramps said:
You reckon? :thinking:
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yep - i'd say the germane factor is that he had a replica gun and reached for it when told to put his hands up - black, white, or dressed as a bear the result would have been the same
 
ST4 said:
With someone who's job is to protect public safety and who's in the direct line of fire who's facing someone who's not complying with your requests and who could be carrying a loaded gun, what would you do?

He shouted twice, that is exploring every avenue.
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I am absolutely positive the result would have been different in the UK.
 
gramps said:
I am absolutely positive the result would have been different in the UK.
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yep he'd have been tazered or CS gassed and you and the rest of the bleeding heart liberals would be getting your knickers in a knot about that instead.

Or if it had actually been a 9mm pistol he'd have shot the responding police officer dead and then skipped off to murder his classmates and commit suicide with his last round whilst an ARV was called from the otherside of town.

Anyway different culture, different situation - we havent had 6 school shootings this year in the uk either
 
ST4 said:
With someone who's job is to protect public safety and who's in the direct line of fire who's facing someone who's not complying with your requests and who could be carrying a loaded gun, what would you do?

He shouted twice, that is exploring every avenue.
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I'm worried to find myself in full agreement with steve... can i get treatment for this do y'think ? ;)
 
I am absolutely positive the result would have been different in the UK.
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I'm not, and the evidence is that it's less likely now than it was in the past.
Although it's been misrepresented already in this thread, the Harry Measures case is evidence of that, as is the lighter (Albeit the same size and shape as a pistol) incident.

Unfortunately, the moral of the story is, if you want to play with big boys toys, then big boys rules will apply.
 
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Bernie174 said:
I'm not, and the evidence is that it's less likely now than it was in the past.
Although it's been misrepresented already in this thread, the Harry Measures case is evidence of that, as is the lighter (Albeit the same size and shape as a pistol) incident.

Unfortunately, the moral of the story is, if you want to play with big boys toys, then big boys rules will apply.
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You really believe that the police in the UK would gun down a 12 year-old without trying all possible means to end it without tragedy?
 
You really believe that the police in the UK would gun down a 12 year-old without trying all possible means to end it without tragedy?
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I believe that if an armed officer turned up at the same incident, shouted 2 warnings, and was pointing a gun at him, and he still didn't do as he was told then the slightest movement for a weapon would lead to the same result yes.

I refer you back to what the person investigating said, refreshingly, "It will be investigated as to what was in the officers minds at the time, not with 20/20 hindsight". Something the IPCC would be wise to take note of.
 
Bernie174 said:
I believe that if an armed officer turned up at the same incident, shouted 2 warnings, and was pointing a gun at him, and he still didn't do as he was told then the slightest movement for a weapon would lead to the same result yes.

I refer you back to what the person investigating said, refreshingly, "It will be investigated as to what was in the officers minds at the time, not with 20/20 hindsight". Something the IPCC would be wise to take note of.
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Assuming the report is correct:-
Police say an officer fired two shots at Tamir Rice after he failed to obey an order to raise his hands.
He did not make any verbal threats nor point the gun towards the officers
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You still sure?
 
In a culture where guns are everywhere and most families own one, i suspect the cop probably thought it was real, it wouldn't be the first time a young person sneaks dads gun into school.

I also suspect in the UK a cop would have exorcised more judgement and suspected it was a toy and i believe it would have gone differently.

American gun culture strikes again :-(
 
Assuming the report is correct:-
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At the moment thats all the evidence we have to go on, so in those circumstances, yes, I do believe it's more likely to happen here as well.

If those reports are correct, then again, in the circumstances it would be lawful, in error, given hindsight I grant you, but I've never met a Police Officer, apart from one who likes working in complaints who are full of it(well, full of something!), who has the benefit of being able to act with hindsight.
 
Mr Bump said:
In a culture where guns are everywhere and most families own one, i suspect the cop probably thought it was real, it wouldn't be the first time a young person sneaks dads gun into school.

I also suspect in the UK a cop would have exorcised more judgement and suspected it was a toy and i believe it would have gone differently.

American gun culture strikes again :-(
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Im sorry but when was the last time a gun killed anyone? Its the person behind the gun. And more judgement? The police here are useless they rarely exercise common sense. There is nothing wrong with people owning guns. The issue comes when people dont follow police instructions and think its 'cool' to wave a gun around. if you when the copper and you didnt shoot 9times out of 10 youd be dead.
 
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barratt1988 said:
The issue comes when people dont follow police instructions and think its 'cool' to wave a gun around.
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According to the report he didn't wave it around in any way.
 
Bernie174 said:
At the moment thats all the evidence we have to go on, so in those circumstances, yes, I do believe it's more likely to happen here as well.
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You surprise me.
 
Mr Bump said:
In a culture where guns are everywhere and most families own one, i suspect the cop probably thought it was real, it wouldn't be the first time a young person sneaks dads gun into school.

I also suspect in the UK a cop would have exorcised more judgement and suspected it was a toy and i believe it would have gone differently.

American gun culture strikes again :-(
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Yeah..I don't think its a cop or colour issue, its a country issue. Same cop, different country , different outcome.
 
fabs said:
Your insinuation that the kid might not have been killed if he had been white sort of implies that the decision to shoot was based on his race does it not?
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Does it?
 
fabs said:
You think it doesn't? You bring up skin colour and then seem to claim that you haven't made any racial implication? If not, how about an explanation of what you were implying.
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I didn't "claim" anything ... you are the only one using that word.
What I said was
gramps said:
I wonder if he would be dead if he had been white?
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I am concerned that if he had been white a great deal more consideration would have been given to how to deal with the situation involving a 12 year-old boy who was allegedly not threatening anyone with the 'gun'.
Both past and recent history in the US shows that it's a valid concern to have.
 
gramps said:
I didn't "claim" anything ... you are the only one using that word.
What I said was
I am concerned that if he had been white a great deal more consideration would have been given to how to deal with the situation involving a 12 year-old boy who was allegedly not threatening anyone with the 'gun'.
Both past and recent history in the US shows that it's a valid concern to have.
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And your response to BSM indicated that you were quite sure that he wouldn't have been.
 
barratt1988 said:
Im sorry but when was the last time a gun killed anyone? Its the person behind the gun. And more judgement? The police here are useless they rarely exercise common sense. There is nothing wrong with people owning guns. The issue comes when people dont follow police instructions and think its 'cool' to wave a gun around. if you when the copper and you didnt shoot 9times out of 10 youd be dead.
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You sound just like one of those NRA fanatics....guns don't kill people there just tools.......yep
 
Mr Bump said:
You sound just like one of those NRA fanatics....guns don't kill people there just tools.......yep
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Yer i walked into the kitchen and a bloody knife flung its self towards me .. could of killed me.. o no wait it was the person who threw it who was to blame
 
Im sorry but when was the last time a gun killed anyone? Its the person behind the gun. And more judgement?
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Excellent, and quite correct, so here's how you resolve that one, keep the 2 things apart! If someone wants a gun, the last thing you should ever do is let them have one.
 
AndyB1976 said:
Yeah..I don't think its a cop or colour issue, its a country issue. Same cop, different country , different outcome.
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Yes i believe its a cultural issue, if you live in a society where guns are everywhere you are going to assume for your own safety that every gun is real. I feel sorry for the family but equally the 12 year old boy is not a young child and would/should have been aware what was going on after all they are fed on a diet of gun violence all day on TV.
 
barratt1988 said:
Im sorry but when was the last time a gun killed anyone? Its the person behind the gun. And more judgement? The police here are useless they rarely exercise common sense. There is nothing wrong with people owning guns. The issue comes when people dont follow police instructions and think its 'cool' to wave a gun around. if you when the copper and you didnt shoot 9times out of 10 youd be dead.
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sigh
 
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