police shoot 12 year old

[fracster]

I have guns, I don`t feel the need to kill people with them, nor take them with me if going out to the pub,park or anywhere else where other people may be, that is the difference between the UK and the USA,SA or The Peoples Paradise of Zimbabwe.

 

[kendo1]

I think you will find we have more gun crime now than before the ban

If you had checked the official figures before posting you'll find that that is not true.

Latest figures show that gun crime is down 6% on last year, following a 19% drop the previous year- for England and Wales. Source: Parliament.uk briefing papers pdf
Figures for Scotland show a drop of 24% 2009/2010, following four years of decrease.
The last peak in gun related incidents was in 2001/2002

 

[Steve Smith]

Don't let the facts ruin a good post!


Steve.

 

[Steve Smith]

You sound just like one of those NRA fanatics....guns don't kill people there just tools.......yep

Or as Michael Moore stated "guns don't kill people, Americans do".


Steve.

 

[Garry Edwards]

If you had checked the official figures before posting you'll find that that is not true.

Latest figures show that gun crime is down 6% on last year, following a 19% drop the previous year- for England and Wales. Source: Parliament.uk briefing papers pdf
Figures for Scotland show a drop of 24% 2009/2010, following four years of decrease.
The last peak in gun related incidents was in 2001/2002

In fact, reported gun crime went up quite dramatically following the reported "ban" that followed the Hamilton murders (which in fact wasn't a ban at all) but during the last few years has begun to fall again to an all time low.

Problem is, nobody actually knows how much gun crime there is, the official figures include complaints made by members of the public about guns that may or may not have been guns..
One possible reason for the reduction in reported figures may be due to the dramatic reduction in the number of reported armed robberies (especially involving banks) which are now more difficult to rob successfully, and far easier targets by other methods, i.e. fraud and computer crime.

Another possible reason is that the police have achieved a great deal in reducing illegal gun ownership, and a change to legislation following the murder of PC Broadhurst in 1993, making it much more difficult for criminals to make their own ammo.

 

[Box Brownie]

Tragic for all involved and without getting into "the view from here in regard to why gun access in the US is what it is" there have been more than enough police involved deaths by gunfire where there was apparently enough to indicate that the victim was not an immediate risk to the officer or the public.

It seems that the firearms training is not designed to differentiate between the clearly armed bank robber where lethal force is assuredly required and a suspect of unknown risk where a wounding shot if the officer is well enough trained is more appropriate.......but in the weapons first mentality that seems exist in the US shoot first and ask/answer questions later prevails.

 

[Bernie174]

It seems that the firearms training is not designed to differentiate between the clearly armed bank robber where lethal force is assuredly required and a suspect of unknown risk where a wounding shot if the officer is well enough trained is more appropriate.

There is no such thing as a 'Wounding" shot. The aim is for the main body mass, simply because its the largest target it's also where the major organs are, so inevitably fatal.

 

[Bernie174]

And in other news, the locals are restless in Ferguson, in the good old US of A after they decided that those who heard all the evidence was quite clearly wrong, and that they, who heard it 2nd, third or 900th hand obviously understood the circumstances fully and were therefore fully justified in rioting and looting. Although how looting helps the fantasy about the version without foundation is beyond me.

Still never mind. The point is that if you have a society where gun ownership is rife, and use of firearms is considered normal, then those who are employed to ensure the peace is kept and law maintained are going to be more much less tolerant of actions that over here we'd perhaps not treat in the same way.

The lesson here is where guns are concerned don't b****r about with Police Officers. Trying to snatch an officers gun, or not doing exactly what you are told when warned, irrespective of you knowing what you have is not capable of being fired, or that you were maybe just messing about, is going to end badly. I'll repeat the same thing I said earlier, if you want to play with big boys toys, then you have to accept big boys rules.

 

[gramps]

Still never mind. The point is that if you have a society where gun ownership is rife, and use of firearms is considered normal, then those who are employed to ensure the peace is kept and law maintained are going to be more much less tolerant of actions that over here we'd perhaps not treat in the same way.

Ah, you do agree then?

 

[Bernie174]

Ah, you do agree then?

No, I don't agree, I am talking in general, and in general, in the UK the public don't encounter armed Police officers too often. As opposed to in the US where all of them are, and who take their own safety, understandably, very seriously.

An unarmed officer really has very little in the way of options, and in the days before ARV's, I walked into things I really didn't want to, where the proper response would have been an armed officer. We did have them but the authority of God himself was needed to have them issued at Station level, and the Good Old DPG were like London Cabs, "Naw mate, that's south of the thames, we'll melt or something".

So yes we made do. Some got killed as a result, but dead police officers are good publicity opportunities for Politicians, it means they can lie some more, without being questioned to closely, because it would be disrespectful.

That we did make do, really acceptable any more. Yes, I signed on the dotted line, but it didn't say anything about being expected to die in the attempt to do my job. So, while I am not keen on Police officers with guns, mostly because of the way the idiots at the IPCC behave, I accept they are now necessary.

Those that carry firearms and use them in crime, are slowly cottoning on that the Bill have a bit more than 12 inches of cheap wood, an asp or some mild korma sauce to spray at them. So while we in the UK are still learning that having a firearm and being stupid/criminal is likely to hurt....a lot, the US have known the consequences for years. It's obviously sad that a 13 year old lost his life, but it's inevitable that it will end badly unless you either don't carry anything that looks like a gun, or you do exactly what you are told when the filth turn up.

 

[Peter69]

The people to blame for this are the NRA, people like
Kirk Douglas & nearly all Republicans.
Their claim to bare arms is an old tradition based on the need to over through any corrupt government they have.

In this country the police would have probably shot too as, from reports, the child was warned and then pulled the gun out of his waist band. Although he was only 12 a gun can be just as fatal.

A very sad story for all involved but realistically nothing will be done to prevent it happening again. Just like school shootings!

 

[Bernie174]

A very sad story for all involved but realistically nothing will be done to prevent it happening again. Just like school shootings!

I would think its too late now, its too ingrained into US society. I am sure though that the founding fathers of the US would not have included the right to bare arms in the constitution had they known about the carnage that it causes.

 

[Steve Smith]

A very sad story for all involved but realistically nothing will be done to prevent it happening again. Just like school shootings!

I would think its too late now, its too ingrained into US society

It certainly is. I quoted part of a Michael Moore piece earlier. This is the whole statement after a recent school shooting:

"With due respect to those who are asking me to comment on last night's tragic mass shooting at UCSB in Isla Vista, CA -- I no longer have anything to say about what is now part of normal American life. Everything I have to say about this, I said it 12 years ago: We are a people easily manipulated by fear which causes us to arm ourselves with a quarter BILLION guns in our homes that are often easily accessible to young people, burglars, the mentally ill and anyone who momentarily snaps. We are a nation founded in violence, grew our borders through violence, and allow men in power to use violence around the world to further our so-called American (corporate) "interests." The gun, not the eagle, is our true national symbol. While other countries have more violent pasts (Germany, Japan), more guns per capita in their homes (Canada - mostly hunting guns), and the kids in most other countries watch the same violent movies and play the same violent video games that our kids play, no one even comes close to killing as many of its own citizens on a daily basis as we do -- and yet we don't seem to want to ask ourselves this simple question: "Why us? What is it about US?" Nearly all of our mass shootings are by angry or disturbed white males. None of them are committed by the majority gender, women. Hmmm, why is that? Even when 90% of the American public calls for stronger gun laws, Congress refuses -- and then we the people refuse to remove them from office. So the onus is on us, all of us. We won't pass the necessary laws, but more importantly we won't consider why this happens here all the time. When the NRA says, "Guns don't kill people -- people kill people," they've got it half-right. Except I would amend it to this: "Guns don't kill people -- Americans kill people." Enjoy the rest of your day, and rest assured this will all happen again very soon".

Which I think sums it up perfectly (unfortunately).


Steve.

 

[SFTPhotography]

The people to blame for this are the NRA, people like
Kirk Douglas & nearly all Republicans.
Their claim to bare arms is an old tradition based on the need to over through any corrupt government they have.

In this country the police would have probably shot too as, from reports, the child was warned and then pulled the gun out of his waist band. Although he was only 12 a gun can be just as fatal.

A very sad story for all involved but realistically nothing will be done to prevent it happening again. Just like school shootings!

I'm not sure I follow the logic here. In the UK where gun ownership is heavily restricted he would have been shot given the circumstances. In the US he was shot as he failed to acknowledge the police and they thought he was armed. In other words independent of gun ownership culture the kid was going to get shot based on the potential risk to the public and police due to their lack of response to the officers.

I really don't see how gun ownership rules even come into play here. Other than the fact this thread is being used once again to moan about US gun ownership. As I've said the vast majority of US citizens who ine guns use them lawfully. To also imply, and this isn't aimed as you, that murder is a part of us culture is way off the mark. Plenty other people's from other countries kill each other.

 

[wegotitugetit]

that gun looks so real

the adrenaline kicking in the officers at the time must of been intense you can not prove that type of training

to be fair if what the officers say is true then i would back them up

you don't have time to think ill bring a tazer out as you will probably be dead if you though of that

 

[Steve Smith]

Plenty other people's from other countries kill each other.

Not to the same extent that Americans do.


Steve.

 

[Bernie174]

I really don't see how gun ownership rules even come into play here. Other than the fact this thread is being used once again to moan about US gun ownership.

Its linked simply because American Society has 'normalized' gun ownership. It's become the status symbol, but not just in the Gangsta culture as it has in the UK.

The more you normalise it, the more people will think they need to have one, and if not a real one, then something that looks as near as possible. The problem is that you have it, you need to prove you are the 'hard man' because of it. Normal sensible thinking would be, that Policeman is pointing a gun at me and shouting for me to not move/put my hands up etc. You know what? I know full well what a gunshot does to the human body, and this is the difference, I would make bloody sure I didn't breath let alone move. He didn't, panic? maybe, stupidity? possibly but no police officer has the gift of hindsight, and given the culture in the US, there was only going to be one result. Sad, but its a result of the silly attitude which tells a frankly naive race that it's OK to carry a gun.

 

[viv1969]

Its linked simply because American Society has 'normalized' gun ownership. It's become the status symbol, but not just in the Gangsta culture as it has in the UK.

The more you normalise it, the more people will think they need to have one, and if not a real one, then something that looks as near as possible. The problem is that you have it, you need to prove you are the 'hard man' because of it. Normal sensible thinking would be, that Policeman is pointing a gun at me and shouting for me to not move/put my hands up etc. You know what? I know full well what a gunshot does to the human body, and this is the difference, I would make bloody sure I didn't breath let alone move. He didn't, panic? maybe, stupidity? possibly but no police officer has the gift of hindsight, and given the culture in the US, there was only going to be one result. Sad, but its a result of the silly attitude which tells a frankly naive race that it's OK to carry a gun.

Actually it's difficult to get a permit to carry a gun in most states.

 

[big soft moose]

In other words independent of gun ownership culture the kid was going to get shot based on the potential risk to the public and police due to their lack of response to the officers.
.

But it was the american culture that led to a 12 year old having a soft air pistol in the first place

I pretty much agree with you that guns are just tools, but they are tools for adults - but most of us wouldnt let a 12 year old wander about with a chainsaw either , or a machette , or a brush knife , etc

End of the day the inescapable fact is that had he not been carrying a replica fire arm he wouldnt have been shot ...so the blame for him having a replica firearm rests first with the parents for not exercising good judgement, and secondly with the society that create the environment where giving a 12 year old a replica firearm (not a toy, but onewhich looks exacvtly like the real thing) looks like a good idea

 

[Bernie174]

Actually it's difficult to get a permit to carry a gun in most states.

Thats a matter of opinion.

 

[big soft moose]

Actually it's difficult to get a permit to carry a gun in most states.

this is true - with a few notable exceptions - according to wikipedias the state of play in Ohio (where Cleveland is) is

In April 2004, Ohio's concealed carry statute went into effect. The law (Ohio Revised Code [O.R.C.] 2923.12, et seq.) allows persons 21 and older to receive a concealed handgun license provided that they receive a minimum of 12 hours of handgun training (10 hours of classroom instruction and 2 hours of range time) from a certified instructor, demonstrate competency with a handgun through written and shooting tests, pass a criminal background check, and meet certain residency requirements.

Although its pretty irrelevant in this case as no one is going to give a concealed carry permit (or indeed any kind of gun licence) to as 12 year old , so any 12 year old who is carrying a 9mm is going to be doing so illegally. As the link to school shootings in the last 5 years (that i posted yesterday) shows this isnt as rare an occurence as most of us would like to think

 

[SFTPhotography]

But it was the american culture that led to a 12 year old having a soft air pistol in the first place

I pretty much agree with you that guns are just tools, but they are tools for adults - but most of us wouldnt let a 12 year old wander about with a chainsaw either , or a machette , or a brush knife , etc

End of the day the inescapable fact is that had he not been carrying a replica fire arm he wouldnt have been shot ...so the blame for him having a replica firearm rests first with the parents for not exercising good judgement, and secondly with the society that create the environment where giving a 12 year old a replica firearm (not a toy, but onewhich looks exacvtly like the real thing) looks like a good idea

Agree totally with paras 2&3

Not so sure with one. Kids here fool around with BB guns, fake toy guns etc. It could also be argued that the kids over there if they are more exposed to gun culture are also more exposed to what armed police do, and how police deal with people with guns. I'd imagine at 12yo he ought to have had enough awareness of what the police do to gun yielding maniacs on the street because the danger a gun poses them and the public.

I still believe in the UK given the circumstances in the press reported the outcome would have been the same and replic gun toys aren't that difficult to get hold of, remove any safety markings and hey presto.

I remain unconvinced that children these days don't play with toy guns and see gun culture either through computer games or the TV.

 

[Peter69]

In the UK anyone looking like they have a firearm and using that item in a threatening way will be shot (to kill) by the police. It has happened, it will happen again.
The ownership of firearms comes into play when you think that a child could easily gain access to a firearm. In the UK it would be very unlikely (even in our most deprived areas) for someone so young gaining access to a firearm. Knives and 'spikes' are the preferred weapon.

I do not understand American's obsession with firearms is (are they all so scared?). Having said that, it is part of their culture but I believe better gun controls are needed. Simple things would be that all gun owners are licensed and that any firearm not in direct control of the owner should be locked away i.e. it must be in arms reach of the owner. These 2 simple steps would help in regards the 'accidental' firearms deaths would be much reduced with hardly any impact on the 'rights' of the owner. But if Americans still want to slaughter their children it is their choice. For information, I have guns.

 

[omens]

Looking at the story, I wonder what I would have done as a 12 year old with police shouting at me. I'd have probably "frozen" with psychological shock and just stood there, unable to move. And that would have gotten me killed!

 

[SFTPhotography]

Looking at the story, I wonder what I would have done as a 12 year old with police shouting at me. I'd have probably "frozen" with psychological shock and just stood there, unable to move. And that would have gotten me killed!

I did too. I'd have shouted back to them saying don't shoot, it's false and obeyed every request.

 

[gramps]

I did too. I'd have shouted back to them saying don't shoot, it's false and obeyed every request.

Many 12 year-olds would be too frightened to do anything before you even consider different mental and emotional circumstances - the fact is that no evidence has yet come to light to indicate that the boy did anything threatening to the police or worthy of being shot.

A member of the public had phoned police saying people in the playground were scared by someone brandishing what looked like a gun.
In a recording released by officials, the caller can be heard saying: “There’s a guy with a pistol…you know, it’s probably fake but he’s pointing it at everybody.
“I don't know if it's real or not."
The 911 responder twice asked whether the boy was black or white before dispatching officers.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Many 12 year-olds would be too frightened to do anything before you even consider different mental and emotional circumstances - the fact is that no evidence has yet come to light to indicate that the boy did anything threatening to the police or worthy of being shot.

The police couldn't tell if the gun was real or not, there was a kid waving it around who, if it was real would present a real risk to the police and the public. Furthermore that risk was heightened when he ignored the armed police.

Sorry but that's how it's presented in the press and leads me to believe the shooting to be a lawful one.

He also wasn't so frightened to be brandishing a fake gun at others causing intimidation and fear.

 

[gramps]

The police couldn't tell if the gun was real or not, there was a kid waving it around who, if it was real would present a real risk to the police and the public. Furthermore that risk was heightened when he ignored the armed police.

The reports say that he wasn't waving it around or threatening anyone with it when the police arrived.

He also wasn't so frightened to be brandishing a fake gun at others causing intimidation and fear.

How do you know he was intimidating people. it appears to be one caller's assessment ... never been a kid and played cops & robbers/cowboys & indians?
To me it is a tragic over-reaction ... 21 teenagers killed by police in the US since August this year ... whatever the circumstances, a tragedy!

 

[SFTPhotography]

How do you know he was intimidating people. it appears to be one caller's assessment ... never been a kid and played cops & robbers/cowboys & indians?
To me it is a tragic over-reaction ... 21 teenagers killed by police in the US since August this year ... whatever the circumstances, a tragedy!

The police were called due to the distress to the public. It was not obvious it was a replica gun as all the safety measures to mark it so were removed.

Whilst the loss of any life is tragic, 21 deaths out of a population that size with the crime they do have is not significant. How many teens die in car accidents in that time frame??

 

[gramps]

The police were called due to the distress to the public. It was not obvious it was a replica gun as all the safety measures to mark it so were removed.

In a recording released by officials, the caller can be heard saying: “There’s a guy with a pistol…you know, it’s probably fake but he’s pointing it at everybody.

Whilst the loss of any life is tragic, 21 deaths out of a population that size with the crime they do have is not significant. How many teens die in car accidents in that time frame??

They are 21 deaths from a specific cause ... nothing to do with road accidents which are ... accidents ... not shootings by police.

 

[SFTPhotography]

They are 21 deaths from a specific cause ... nothing to do with road accidents which are ... accidents ... not shootings by police.

21 deaths isn't significant in the context of Americas population and given the events in the news a fair few justified due to the risk posed to the police and public.

In short, irrespective of the persons age if someone has a gun and is yielding it in public and they ignore armed police the shootings are justified IMHO. The greater risk to public and police safety must be considered irrespective of age of the perp

 

[gramps]

The greater risk to public and police safety must be considered irrespective of age of the perp

So, according to the reports:-

1. Police get a single report that a boy is waving a gun ... "probably a fake" ... not shooting, (which of course he couldn't).
2. Police responder asks twice if he's black or white.
   
3. Armed police arrive see it's a young boy ... still not shooting.
4. Boy doesn't threaten anyone in presence of the police.
5. Boy fails to respond to armed police and still doesn't threaten anyone but is shot, twice.

I guess you have to be on a hair trigger to shoot a boy twice for that sort of 'public and police safety' risk.

 

[SFTPhotography]

It's the bit in Boy fails to respond to armed police and still doesn't threaten anyone but is shot, twice

With public safety and your own, you have to take every care. Point 2 is irrelvent and used to try indentify the perp, narrows it down a bit. They see a boy with what looks like a gun not responding to what they are saying. That's why this happened. Had he said, don't shoot, its fake and laid down it wouldn't have happened.

 

[ChasG]

They are 21 deaths from a specific cause ... nothing to do with road accidents which are ... accidents ... not shootings by police.

I thought the police view was there are no vehicle accidents - always a cause too much booze spped, too little maintenance, care, observation etc

 

[AHILL]

Yet again the TP police have voiced their opinions based on the inaccurate press reports that have been spoon fed.
Why not wait for an official statement before jumping to conclusions?
IMHO there is too much emphasis on black & white.

It is one thing to object to the handling of an incident but why must Joe public riot and destroy, loot everything in sight is beyond me!

 

[gramps]

Yet again the TP police have voiced their opinions based on the inaccurate press reports that have been spoon fed.

How do you know they are inaccurate?

IMHO there is too much emphasis on black & white.

Probably because of US history ... can you imagine a UK police responder asking if a suspect was black or white?

It is one thing to object to the handling of an incident but why must Joe public riot and destroy, loot everything in sight is beyond me!

Though this is in respect to a different case, you are right, it doesn't achieve anything ... oh wait a minute, what happened to the 'Poll Tax'?

 

[SFTPhotography]

I have guns, I don`t feel the need to kill people with them, nor take them with me if going out to the pub,park or anywhere else where other people may be, that is the difference between the UK and the USA,SA or The Peoples Paradise of Zimbabwe.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of gun owners in the US and SA don't go around shooting each other and own them responsibly.

 

[Bernie174]

Probably because of US history ... can you imagine a UK police responder asking if a suspect was black or white?

What a stupid thing to say!
I asked that question all the time when I worked in Lambeth, both when reserve and when out on the streets! If I was being sent to a suspect for anything, I needed to know what he looked like! A 13 years old male isn't really that helpful. A 13 year old male with his racial origin was going to make my life considerably easier! I'd also be asking what he's wearing, if white what colour his hair is, how tall. Gosh that might make me gingerist, or tallist. Yep, I admit it all, I was apt to shoot people simply for having ginger hair!
Your implication, taking the above daft comment with everything else you've said on the subject is that somehow his colour has something to do with the reasons for his shooting. If thats your intention, then take your own advice, there's no evidence supporting that, so don't claim it!

 

[gramps]

What a stupid thing to say!
I asked that question all the time when I worked in Lambeth, both when reserve and when out on the streets! If I was being sent to a suspect for anything, I needed to know what he looked like! A 13 years old male isn't really that helpful. A 13 year old male with his racial origin was going to make my life considerably easier! I'd also be asking what he's wearing, if white what colour his hair is, how tall. Gosh that might make me gingerist, or tallist. Yep, I admit it all, I was apt to shoot people simply for having ginger hair!
Your implication, taking the above daft comment with everything else you've said on the subject is that somehow his colour has something to do with the reasons for his shooting. If thats your intention, then take your own advice, there's no evidence supporting that, so don't claim it!

Nothing stupid at all ... it would be normal to ask for a description, not 'is he black or white', bet your superiors loved you if you made that sort of remark!

 

[Bernie174]

Gramps, you claimed a number of times to have been a policeman, I really am having difficulty believing you.
Yes, asking if someone is black or white is a standard question, usually after what sex, followed by how old, how tall, whats he/she wearing. Contrary to popular belief there is nothing 'wrong' with either of those 2 words, they are perfectly acceptable ways of describing someone.
PNC version 1's input parameters were Name/DOB/Sex/Colour and that only took black or white!
Now please get off your high bloody horse! The question was perfectly valid for perfectly obvious reasons!