Slimbert
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And that justifies your other views in this thread?! :shrug:
and help to keep the site free for all
Jimmy Saville
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And that justifies your other views in this thread?! :shrug:
neil_g
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its called having an opinion.
anyway, im out. im sure the mods will be along shortly..
Never a truer word said, but on the flip side, it seems some people in here think that allegations like these aren't factual until a court says they are.....madness!!
I think what you need to understand, is that allegations are exactly that until they are proven fact or fiction.
I sometimes wonder whether some people would ever be fit to be a jury member.
srichards
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I thought Savile was in the Masons. That would explain why nothing really happened. If you have dirt on senior politicians too then that also helps.
I'm sure it was a running joke in the 70s and beyond that many of the senior police were all in the Masons and involved in all sorts of cover ups.
I'm sure it was a running joke in the 70s and beyond that many of the senior police were all in the Masons and involved in all sorts of cover ups.
Slimbert
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And you need to understand that a court doesn't and can't decide whether an event actually happened or not.....a court gives/makes an opinion/judgement based on presented evidence.
That's a fact, based on there being innocent people in prison, and guilty people freely walking the streets!!
srichards
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http://thejohnfleming.wordpress.com...a-paedophile-hoax-on-have-i-got-news-for-you/
HIGNFY script a definite hoax.
HIGNFY script a definite hoax.
Well that depends, Chelsea player....Guilty as charged your honour.
Some people need to realise that if you have been abused, it's not something you put on a badge and tell people about, some people will be that scared and scarred, it will go to the grave with them.
A person who is one of my FB friends has gone on about what a load of bull it is, people should have come out and said at the time....it' all lies. One of his friends then replied, that years ago he was abused and took 30 years to come out and tell somebody. The guy was gobsmacked as they used to play when school friends, and they have drunk together since.
You never know if your friend/partner/family member has been abused as alot won't just come out and say it.
Those of you who have never been affected, you should be happy, until you have been there, you don't know what you would say ideally yes, people should come out and say, but i would say it's only a very small proportion of society that will.
Russ77
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Russ77
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Spot on that man!
boyfalldown
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its fair to say he'll never be found guilty of a criminal offence being dead and all.
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That audio recording of Jimmy Savile where you can hear him doing God knows what to a young girl is pretty creepy, but if he does end up being guilty then every one of those who knew about it and did nothing or covered it up should be brought up on charges as well, including BBC employees/Directors. Massive breach of trust by the BBC which must have left a lot of parents who thought they were leaving their children in good hands feeling sick.
srichards
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This article dates from 2007.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/154379/Matthew-Kelly-held-over-child-sex.html
In the article about Matthew Kelly it mentions Operation Arundel that did for Jonathan King
Operation Arundel found King lured lads as young as 14 to his £850,000 home, in Bayswater, West London, showed them porn then abused them.
The probe also threw up the names of chart stars, a married peer, a record producer and two DJs.
The stars in the probe who cannot be named for legal reasons included:
A HEART-THROB singer with a string of Top 10 hits.
A MEMBER of a world- famous pop band.
A MARRIED earl who served in the House of Lords for 20 years as a Lib-Dem. The peer was a pupil at Gordonstoun public school, where Prince Charles was once a boarder.
TWO DJs, one a Radio 1 legend, are said to be at the heart of Kings sick ring.
Now I'm curious as to why those mentioned in the list haven't been named or have they been named since?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/154379/Matthew-Kelly-held-over-child-sex.html
In the article about Matthew Kelly it mentions Operation Arundel that did for Jonathan King
Operation Arundel found King lured lads as young as 14 to his £850,000 home, in Bayswater, West London, showed them porn then abused them.
The probe also threw up the names of chart stars, a married peer, a record producer and two DJs.
The stars in the probe who cannot be named for legal reasons included:
A HEART-THROB singer with a string of Top 10 hits.
A MEMBER of a world- famous pop band.
A MARRIED earl who served in the House of Lords for 20 years as a Lib-Dem. The peer was a pupil at Gordonstoun public school, where Prince Charles was once a boarder.
TWO DJs, one a Radio 1 legend, are said to be at the heart of Kings sick ring.
Now I'm curious as to why those mentioned in the list haven't been named or have they been named since?
People that witness/know of abuse and do nothing are as bad as the abuser themselves. Don't know how they can have it on their conscience that they did nothing to even try and stop anything from happening to anyone in the future by reporting a case of abuse, regardless of who the alleged is.
Russ77
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Perhaps because the accusations were unfounded and there was no evidence to back them up? #justsayin'
and there was no evidence to back them up? #justsayin'
People bothering with actual evidence rather than hearsay, rumours and speculation.... that'll be a first.
Russ77
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Agreed but it's not always that black & white.
If the witness to the abuse is close to the abuser then the abuser may have some kind of hold/power over them that prevents them from doing so.
The fact is, those that commit these types of offence are usually very calculating and leave little to chance. I'm sure they wouldn't leave themselves wide open to someone being able to run to the police to report them. The simplest way of stopping this is a direct threat to the witnesses well being or "You'll only make it worse" for the victim.
I was going to try an elaborate in terms that you might understand but it's just occured to me that you still won't get it so I just won't bother
Two rape allegations and 6 of sexual assault and you put it down to 'fooling around'?
Russ77
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Where exactly have I said that?
I referred to a type of behaviour that I've been reliably been informed went on in the "swinging" 60s and 70s however I've never said that's what any of these alleged victims got up to.
Maybe you should wind it in a bit and understand the point I'm trying to make rather than just struggling to make sense of the words
Where exactly have I said that?
I referred to a type of behaviour that I've been reliably been informed went on in the "swinging" 60s and 70s however I've never said that's what any of these alleged victims got up to.
Maybe you should wind it in a bit and understand the point I'm trying to make rather than just struggling to make sense of the words
You said:
I was chatting abotu this with my parents last night and my Dad came out with the comment "well the 60s/70s was the era of the groupie(sp?), your mother even tried throwing herself at Cliff Richards"
However jokes aside perhaps with the passing of time, a teenage girl of the 60/70s going "back stage" with a celebrity for a bit consentual of "fooling around" has now become known as something a little more sinister?
Also, if Saville can't be tried for this what is the point? Will those who are making these allegations be looking to somewhere like the BBC for compo?
I don't know what your definition of fooling around is, but it appears not to be the same as Scotland Yard's.
Unfortunately, things were very different back then in the sixties, seventies and early eighties. It was a reall eye opener to me when I started work as a seventeen year old in the seventies. The first Christmas was like a "snogfest" at our place, with more wilted mistletoe than you could shake a stick at - if you had the energy to shake anything. Everybody seemed to be "up for it", and there were no complaints from anyone.
I also remember 14 and 15 year olds at my school having boyfriends in their late teens and early twenties, and this was totally out in the open. The couples went to school dances together (sometimes with the girl's parents in attendance).
What do the following have in common:
Roman Polanski
Chuck Berry
Jerry Lee Lewis
Bill Wyman
They were all very famous men who had a thing about 14 year old girls.
Russ77
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So as per my original question, where did I state that a scenario I suggested actually applied to one of the people who have made the allegations?
You can quote me all you like but I still don't think you're going to get it
This is what amazes me Suz, that there are all these people "x, y, z", and nobody seems to be naming them. I actually want people to be up front and to start naming names, because if they don't, then there are people getting away with it.
mark richards
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guilty or not..its always the same,its too bloody late now..what if he's found guilty, send him to prison...he lived a great life and got away with it, not like the alleged victims...
2 of those men served jail time, 1 was blacklisted and the other should have had harsher treatment. Jimmy Savile is being accused of rape, not snogging under the mistletoe.
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Ok.
1
So it's all speculation and people can say what they like?
2
If he can't legally be found guilty is he legally not guilty then? :shrug:
Not being argumentative, just don't get it.
srichards
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I don't understand it either. Lack of evidence, ongoing investigations or a superinjunction would be 3 potential reasons why they weren't being named.
Chris Denning is one of the DJs I think. He's certainly ended up in jail.
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You can't try and convict a corpse!
I appreciate the damage sexual abuse can do to a person, but I can't help but feel troubled about the way the public as a whole seem happy to accept allegations as fact and a reputation can be tarnished overnight as a result. I'm not sure what the story is about Jimmy Saville, there does seem to be something going on, but the cover up that's alleged to have taken place would have to have been huge! There seem to have been allegations and investigations before his death, which never progressed to prosecution due to lack of evidence. Obviously it's all being looked into, but to what end? To my mind the alleged victims had closure on his death. The cynic in me says this is all coming to light because had they tried to run this story while he was alive, they would surely have been attacked (and if he was innocent, rightly so) by his lawyers. Let's face it, our media have been pretty shameless in recent years, regardless of the consequences. Why would they be complicit in a grand cover up?
Accusations of sexual assault, rape etc can ruin the accused life and irreparable damage can be done to their reputation and the way people are found guilty by the media before any charges are even brought (see the recent case of Mark Bridger regarding April Jones) is quite concerning.
With the Jimmy Saville case I would like to see an investigation with a view to revealing the truth. If it turns out he was guilty of such horrific acts and people were helping to cover this up those responsible should be held to account. However, if there is no evidence, the accusers should be looked at. If people had falsely accused him of such acts this needs to be addressed, not only is it harmful to the accused but it trivialises the issue itself. However, one would have tread very carefully in investigating the claims, obviously not doing so could result in people not coming forward for fear of the consequences.
Perhaps one good thing to come from all of this is to highlight the issue that if something is to be done, the crime should be reported as soon as possible to aid prosecution. There is far more support today for victims of abuse than there has been previously, there is less stigma attached to it too in my view, today's abuse is more likely to be reported (in my view) than abuse from years ago, and indeed more likely to lead to action.
Accusations of sexual assault, rape etc can ruin the accused life and irreparable damage can be done to their reputation and the way people are found guilty by the media before any charges are even brought (see the recent case of Mark Bridger regarding April Jones) is quite concerning.
With the Jimmy Saville case I would like to see an investigation with a view to revealing the truth. If it turns out he was guilty of such horrific acts and people were helping to cover this up those responsible should be held to account. However, if there is no evidence, the accusers should be looked at. If people had falsely accused him of such acts this needs to be addressed, not only is it harmful to the accused but it trivialises the issue itself. However, one would have tread very carefully in investigating the claims, obviously not doing so could result in people not coming forward for fear of the consequences.
Perhaps one good thing to come from all of this is to highlight the issue that if something is to be done, the crime should be reported as soon as possible to aid prosecution. There is far more support today for victims of abuse than there has been previously, there is less stigma attached to it too in my view, today's abuse is more likely to be reported (in my view) than abuse from years ago, and indeed more likely to lead to action.
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What evidence are you expecting apart from victim and witness testimony ? - this long after the facts foresenics are going to be a non starter and confession isnt likely wthout a oiuja board
Come to that while people do get falsely accused , its not usual for one person to be independently falsley accused by 30 plus people
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cowboy said:
Speculation? There are multiple victims and witnesses. once their statements have been taken, that's evidence. And they are all independently saying the same thing.
And he has form for it. He's been dealt with it before but the CPS wouldn't prosecute.
As for the circumstantial side of it, he associated with and publicly defended convicted peadophiles, openly admitted he liked teenage girls which was common knowledge around the BBC (BBC staff have gone on the record saying so).
On the balance of probabilities, what do you reckon then?
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Rob 80386
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Even if it can be proved, it would have to be 100% proof, but tbh it's all a moot point and rather sad really.
As previously pointed out:
Dead people can't speak
Dead people can't be convicted
All in all dead people don't care, because they are dead
Stripping him of his knighthood won't do much good either, as the title dies with him.
Nothing good is going to come from this.
gman
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Innocent until proven guilty perhaps, but those who defend him would, like the rest of us, never leave their own child alone with him were he still alive today after such revelations. Obviously they'll claim they would, but I wouldn't believe them for a minute.
As for what's the point now that he's dead? For starters his estate should be frozen until this comes to an end and those who were genuinely abused should be compensated from this estate not only as reparation but as a warning to other Uncle Festers. His family may be publically against him, but I bet they are still happy to inherit his estate. Personally, I think it the remains should all go towards something that helps children.
As for what's the point now that he's dead? For starters his estate should be frozen until this comes to an end and those who were genuinely abused should be compensated from this estate not only as reparation but as a warning to other Uncle Festers. His family may be publically against him, but I bet they are still happy to inherit his estate. Personally, I think it the remains should all go towards something that helps children.
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Putting the victims to one side, just for a moment, this is quite devastating for JS's family, and, although to an even lesser degree, all those of us who liked the guy as a tv/radio personality in all those years he was around.
Always preferred him from others on TOTP and watched JWFI when I was little. Feel conned myself...Sad.
Always preferred him from others on TOTP and watched JWFI when I was little. Feel conned myself...Sad.
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That is just so wrong! Firstly how will giving money change anything and secondly how are the family supposed to defend the claims and finally what's to stop anyone claiming the same thing against you when you die? and how do you think your family would cope with it..... ?
Rob 80386
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I see it like this:
50% media spin (well something has to sell the papers)
30% hearsay (accounts that can't be proved)
20% credible evidence
I think the family are against him because they believe what's being said and also to stay out of the firing line of the lynch mobs.
50% media spin (well something has to sell the papers)
30% hearsay (accounts that can't be proved)
20% credible evidence
I think the family are against him because they believe what's being said and also to stay out of the firing line of the lynch mobs.
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