Is it worth getting a Diesel?

Engines run differently when cold compared to warm, and one might reasonably expect a different pollution profile. Diesel engine development is likely still behind that of petrol engines: it doesn't seem that long ago that cars had manual chokes you had to pull out before starting, and it was really odd to have a car with an automatic choke (how can I trust it - what will I do if the engine won't start?).
 
jonbeeza said:
In the BBC news this morning, it was reported Diesel vehicles alter their emission when cold. It seems it is done to protect the engine, but it makes the vehicles pollution rating pretty high. It is done by an on-board computer, and it seems it is perfectly legal.
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Petrol or diesel, a cars ecu has to do the best with the emissions that it can with the hardware on the engine whilst still remaining usable. Fortunately an engine doesn't remain cold for long unless of course you are doing very short journeys where the engine doesn't warm up properly. As with diesels having DPFs, more and more petrol engines will have GPFs and expect to see an increase in egr valves on petrol engines too. Unless someone can come up with a radical means to lower diesel emissions further, there is a very strong chance that in a few years time, diesel engines will only be available for commercial vehicles and be phased out on cars.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Engines run differently when cold compared to warm, and one might reasonably expect a different pollution profile. Diesel engine development is likely still behind that of petrol engines: it doesn't seem that long ago that cars had manual chokes you had to pull out before starting, and it was really odd to have a car with an automatic choke (how can I trust it - what will I do if the engine won't start?).
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It seems like a life time ago to me. Pulling out the choke and pumping the pedal, then wondering will the car start. Found it was easier pulling out the choke, and not pumping the pedal was a better option.
 
ancient_mariner said:
Diesel engine development is likely still behind that of petrol engines.
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Diesel engine technology took a big step forward in it's development around 20yrs ago. Modern direct injection petrol engines were developed using methods learnt from diesel engines, and now new diesel engines are being developed using ideas from the development of the direct injection petrol engines.
 
nilagin said:
Petrol or diesel, a cars ecu has to do the best with the emissions that it can with the hardware on the engine whilst still remaining usable. Fortunately an engine doesn't remain cold for long unless of course you are doing very short journeys where the engine doesn't warm up properly. As with diesels having DPFs, more and more petrol engines will have GPFs and expect to see an increase in egr valves on petrol engines too. Unless someone can come up with a radical means to lower diesel emissions further, there is a very strong chance that in a few years time, diesel engines will only be available for commercial vehicles and be phased out on cars.
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And therein lies the problem. I recall it very well that in 1996 there was very little love for the diesel engine in the UK. I was subjected to the mockery of my colleagues, however I did a lot of miles cross Europe in those days.

Roll forward twenty years and everyone has a diesel and you are approached like some deranged fanatic if you want a petrol. For the vast majority of use cases the diesels don't make sense, aren't suited to the usage profile, yet people still argue it is cheaper. The indoctrination has really worked.
 
dejongj said:
And therein lies the problem. I recall it very well that in 1996 there was very little love for the diesel engine in the UK. I was subjected to the mockery of my colleagues, however I did a lot of miles cross Europe in those days.

Roll forward twenty years and everyone has a diesel and you are approached like some deranged fanatic if you want a petrol. For the vast majority of use cases the diesels don't make sense, aren't suited to the usage profile, yet people still argue it is cheaper. The indoctrination has really worked.
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In the 80's and 90's, diesels were a completely different animal compared to modern diesels. Back then many were non turbo, the revs dropping off rapidly as you changed gear. I had a Fiesta 1.8D and the only way to get any sort of acceleration out of the engine was never take your foot off the accelerator when changing gear. Then I had the same engine but with a turbo in a Mondeo, much better, but still nothing like todays engines. Most recently I had a 2007 Mondeo ST TDCi. The difference between that and the old TD is like night and day. I was only doing around 12k a year so some would say not enough to warrant a diesel. But considering it would average 60 mpg over a tank, compared to the 25-30 I could have got out of an ST220 3.0 V6 petrol and the diesel was also quicker in 30-50 and 50-70mph times.
But now move forward to modern petrol engines which are a lot more powerful, more torque, more economical (not quite to diesel standards) and don't drink petrol at a quick rate when you put your foot down like older petrol engines, it is only now that diesels are becoming less and less the right choice.
 
Having caught up with things a bit more, I understand the temperature issues were to do with the environment, rather than the engine temperature.

Regarding diesels, our first was a BX estate in about '96. Performance was quite acceptable at the time from the non-turbo engine, though as the mileage increased (up to 180,000) it became less and less enthusiastic to the point where towing a caravan was embarassing on hills. However shortly before buying the BX I did look at an older Granada diesel, and the lack of go was almost unbelievable - the 900cc Fiat Panda we had the time would have easily seen it off.

We've mostly had diesels since, and living in a small village, the environmental impact will be small. As for running costs, the difference between a petrol and diesel car doesn't make a significant difference for me right now compared to reliability and driveability. We did recently try a new-type VW beetle with 1.4 turbo petrol engine, and that went well, but it was simply too expensive to purchase, never mind running costs. Next time round we might look at petrol cars, but that will be >5 years away.
 
POAH said:
thats why I went for the SE - 16 inch wheels with high quality tyres only £60-70 each.
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16" appears to be the best size. You don't have much choice buying used. The highline with those odd 17" wheels added leather seats and parking sensors all round - a must for such a big car. I could just swap the wheels but that's another expense. I have my eyes on an SUV next, just missed out on absolute bargain X3 3.0D.
 
nilagin said:
In the 80's and 90's, diesels were a completely different animal compared to modern diesels. Back then many were non turbo, the revs dropping off rapidly as you changed gear. I had a Fiesta 1.8D and the only way to get any sort of acceleration out of the engine was never take your foot off the accelerator when changing gear. Then I had the same engine but with a turbo in a Mondeo, much better, but still nothing like todays engines. Most recently I had a 2007 Mondeo ST TDCi. The difference between that and the old TD is like night and day. I was only doing around 12k a year so some would say not enough to warrant a diesel. But considering it would average 60 mpg over a tank, compared to the 25-30 I could have got out of an ST220 3.0 V6 petrol and the diesel was also quicker in 30-50 and 50-70mph times.
But now move forward to modern petrol engines which are a lot more powerful, more torque, more economical (not quite to diesel standards) and don't drink petrol at a quick rate when you put your foot down like older petrol engines, it is only now that diesels are becoming less and less the right choice.
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Something I was guilty of many years ago, when driving a sluggish Fiat Diesel. It needed a new clutch when I gave it back. I did go halves for the repair, as it was already worn anyway.
 
Not all old diesels were bad, a 1.5TD Vauxhall Nova was pretty damn rapid.

I also had to use one of those awful old Ford 1.8Ds in a work van. It quite simply couldn't get beyond 45mph on an A road! Modern ones are better, my Dad has a Cicic 2.2CDTi which is very quick indeed when the Turbo is spooled up, but there is still masses of lag on gear changes and a very narrow power band overall. No boost in 1st either.
 
nilagin said:
Boost is generally restricted in 1st gear to protect the dmf, that and it would be way to easy just to light the wheels up and get nowhere.
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It is all about mapping and gear rations. Some VW group diesels are rather "sporty" in 1st. The 1.9TDI Seat I used to own was enough to run rings around almost any car at traffic lights. I probably don't need to explain what it did to the front tyres. The Common rail DSG passat is a lot kinder to tyres as you initially just get rolling and then straight into 2nd which is when all the fun starts. I can't understand why would anyone still buy manuals
 
Still working out our facts and figures, might be another week or two before anything happens.
 
nilagin said:
Boost is generally restricted in 1st gear to protect the dmf, that and it would be way to easy just to light the wheels up and get nowhere.
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I'm quite aware why it's done, but it still sucks! It's not just restricted in the civic, it's non existent. Dad's old BMW 320 it wasn't restricted, (but there was a much lower rev limit enforced for some reason) but it also had traction control - which led to the scenario that if you you did give it some power just for pulling off the traction control would kick in and you'd stall! The only option was to pull out like a granny with no throttle or to properly boot it and actually give the TCS something to worry about!
 
Been into the Ford dealer this morning, the missus did all the talking. I went for a walk around the showroom, and the sales forecourt. By the time I got back, she had bought a Galaxy. Lovely shade of Grey, just not sure out of the fifty shades which one it is. Just two weeks to wait. :)
 
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jonbeeza said:
Been into the Ford dealer this morning, the missus did all the talking. I went for a walk around the showroom, and the sales forecourt. By the time I got back, she had bought a Galaxy. Lovely shade of Grey, just not sure out of the fifty shades which one it is. Just two weeks to wait. :)
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Magnetic or Guard.
 
jonbeeza said:
No idea. :thinking:

Can't believe me or the missus, never even took a photo of the car. It was in the showroom window, in all its glory.
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So if it is in the showroom, why have you got to wait 2 weeks? I've only ever had to wait a week at most if it is in stock.
 
nilagin said:
So if it is in the showroom, why have you got to wait 2 weeks? I've only ever had to wait a week at most if it is in stock.
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Steering and braking adaptations for missus, just waiting for them to be ordered and fitted. Otherwise, as you say could have had the car in a week.
 
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