Is it worth getting a Diesel?

LongLensPhotography said:
If I was driving a petrol, not diesel Passat my fuel would cost me like a couple thousand more per year. This is not an exaggeration, and my site proves it :) LPG conversion would be the only thing that could save the bank after the initial cost of nearly £2k. :( 4 cylinder petrols tend to feel very low in low end power vs diesels unless they are some bigger turbo sport versions, or at least a good V6. I reckon I will just go straight to electric / electric-hybrid when the time is right, maybe in 5 years time.


DMF is likely to go in any car between 90-150k. You then replace it with single mass kit, or even better you buy an auto and never have to worry about the stupid thing and the stupid manual transmission (there is a flywheel in dual clutch autos... buy one that doesn't rattle!)
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The 1.0 Ecoboost which the OP is considering gets maximum torque at 1400rpm and remains until around 5000rpm. Plus it has transient overboost for about 15 seconds when needed.
DMF's aren't there just to smooth out the engine it also protects the gearbox and crankshaft. Replacing a dmf with a smf can result in a twisted crank or destroy gearbox bearings. For the sake of a few hundred quid, I'd rather not chance it.
 
My 2p is that diesels are smelly, dirty, slow satan's fuel. I'm getting rid of my Merc as soon as I can find a suitable electric car. (second hand Tesla Model S first choice, or Model 3)

Remember most of you are comparing turbo diesels with old flat petrol. Today's turbo petrols are no less fun to drive than diesel counterparts.

I think more importance has to be placed on automatic gearbox. DO NOT buy automated manual!!! I think only traditional toque converter automatics are safe from DMF horrors. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
 
wuyanxu said:
My 2p is that diesels are smelly, dirty, slow satan's fuel. I'm getting rid of my Merc as soon as I can find a suitable electric car. (second hand Tesla Model S first choice, or Model 3)

Remember most of you are comparing turbo diesels with old flat petrol. Today's turbo petrols are no less fun to drive than diesel counterparts.

I think more importance has to be placed on automatic gearbox. DO NOT buy automated manual!!! I think only traditional toque converter automatics are safe from DMF horrors. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
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Most of us want a reliable form of transport which costs as little as possible to run, especially in terms of VED and fuel costs.

Admittedly the small turbo engines that have been around for about the last 4 years make more sense than a larger diesel unit but for myself and probably countless others, they are out of our price range.

Having said that, my 2.0TDCi would be just as fast, if not faster than the equivalent petrol 2.0, plus it would return over 10MPG more..... I'll put up with dirty and smelly for those benefits ;)
 
If you drive a small engine petrol just make sure you drive it with the AIRCON on the full setting as well as off

it needs to be 75bhp and above for you not to notice the drop in performance
 
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nilagin said:
The 1.0 Ecoboost which the OP is considering gets maximum torque at 1400rpm and remains until around 5000rpm. Plus it has transient overboost for about 15 seconds when needed.
DMF's aren't there just to smooth out the engine it also protects the gearbox and crankshaft. Replacing a dmf with a smf can result in a twisted crank or destroy gearbox bearings. For the sake of a few hundred quid, I'd rather not chance it.
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Skoda actually offer to replace the DMF/clutch with a solid flywheel option if the customer wants it. Mine has been on there for four years now, and it drives a lot smoother than it did with the DMF.
 
wuyanxu said:
My 2p is that diesels are smelly, dirty, slow satan's fuel. I'm getting rid of my Merc as soon as I can find a suitable electric car. (second hand Tesla Model S first choice, or Model 3)
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Are there seriously any advantages over petrol, diesel or hybrid from a very expensive electric car?
This is a serious question, because big, sports cars, especially luxury ones, are normally seen as tourers, for taking on long driving holidays across Europe for instance. How on earth can you manage that in an electric car which may need charging every couple of hundred miles or so?
For quite a rare car, there seem to be quite a few for sale - starting at around £50K. I wonder why folks are getting rid of them after only a couple of years and with low mileages?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/...radius/1500/onesearchad/used/quicksearch/true
 
wuyanxu said:
My 2p is that diesels are smelly, dirty, slow satan's fuel. I'm getting rid of my Merc as soon as I can find a suitable electric car. (second hand Tesla Model S first choice, or Model 3)

Remember most of you are comparing turbo diesels with old flat petrol. Today's turbo petrols are no less fun to drive than diesel counterparts.

I think more importance has to be placed on automatic gearbox. DO NOT buy automated manual!!! I think only traditional toque converter automatics are safe from DMF horrors. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
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Like with anything, depends which engine you pick. I think the Mercedes 350 is a wonderful diesel engine.
 
andy700 said:
Are there seriously any advantages over petrol, diesel or hybrid from a very expensive electric car?
This is a serious question, because big, sports cars, especially luxury ones, are normally seen as tourers, for taking on long driving holidays across Europe for instance. How on earth can you manage that in an electric car which may need charging every couple of hundred miles or so?
For quite a rare car, there seem to be quite a few for sale - starting at around £50K. I wonder why folks are getting rid of them after only a couple of years and with low mileages?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/...radius/1500/onesearchad/used/quicksearch/true
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I'd think it is because a lot of them are leased, there are some serious financial benefits in leasing one as a company car. Being able to drive 300 miles and then have a break for 20 minutes seems pretty good to me. We normally switch drivers at the nearest service station after 200 miles. Quick coffee, dump, snack, smoke whatever and the twenty minutes is over before your are ready ;) But yes not for everyone.
 
I am just looking at another car for my wife plus to keep the miles down on my existing Yeti, (it has done 80k kms) - i love the Yeti it's 140bhp diesel and 4 x 4

I have looked at the TSI 90 bhp Petrol Polo and Fabia, both about £12k in France with all the bits and pieces, both the petrol and 110bhp Diesel Captur and the 1.25 TSI Petrol Golf - both about £16k discounted in France . I looked at the Fiesta 100bhp Titanium Turbo boost, (they even offered me a 7 year warranty and 50k kms worth of servicing for about Euros 1,000 extra) ... but I just don't like the looks and finish of the Ford

The conclusion that I am reaching is a 6 month old 5,000 kms Diesel 110bhp 4 x 2 Yeti - OK we will have two, but IMHO it is really good value for money and a very strong car

The VAG 2 litre Diesel motor is a really good engine ... because of the torque over the smaller Petrol engines which reputedly have the same or better performance ...... these new small petrol engines are really good, but do you reckon a 0.9 litre turbo petrol will be more robust than a 2.0 turbo Diesel

(reliability is really important for me)
 
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andy700 said:
Are there seriously any advantages over petrol, diesel or hybrid from a very expensive electric car?
This is a serious question, because big, sports cars, especially luxury ones, are normally seen as tourers, for taking on long driving holidays across Europe for instance. How on earth can you manage that in an electric car which may need charging every couple of hundred miles or so?
For quite a rare car, there seem to be quite a few for sale - starting at around £50K. I wonder why folks are getting rid of them after only a couple of years and with low mileages?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/...radius/1500/onesearchad/used/quicksearch/true
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Perhaps because people like to play with new toys? There are even more number of current-gen A8, S-class on Autotrader.

Advantages of 200+ miles electric car: much lower running cost; low maintenance and high reliability from much fewer moving parts; ease of use (don't have to plan petrol station visits; just plug in every day); lower centre of gravity for better handling; battery enforces vehicle structual strength for safety and handling

Advantages of Tesla: supercharger network for reliable long distance travel; autopilot; always up-to-date firmware; AC motor tech is proven technology that is ultra reliable; no engine inside the crumble zone so much safer

Disadvantage of 200+ miles electric car: Long distance travel relys on fast charging network (Tesla superchargers doesn't have as big reliability problem); fossel fuel cars being a dick and taking up charging spots; have to visit fast chargers for 20min instead of parking at service car park for 10min; require a driveway to plug it in;

Battery degradation really isn't a problem. There's many reports of battery degradation of less than 5% in Model S' with 50k+ miles. Unlike smart phones, these batteries are well looked after by design.

Let's be honest with ourselves, most people don't drive 300 miles per day. So why demand such long range in the car? The (Tesla's) built-in sat-nav estimates your battery usage and shows where best to charge up. When you do drive long distance, you usually isn't in a hurry and extra 10min per stop is no big deal.
 
wuyanxu said:
Let's be honest with ourselves, most people don't drive 300 miles per day. So why demand such long range in the car? The (Tesla's) built-in sat-nav estimates your battery usage and shows where best to charge up. When you do drive long distance, you usually isn't in a hurry and extra 10min per stop is no big deal.
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Let's really be honest with ourselves..... until electric cars have a longer range, charge a lot quicker and aren't massively more expensive than their petrol/diesel peers, they're not going to be driven by the masses.

I do two, maybe three trips per year that require me to travel 200-300 miles in a single journey. It would still be a massive inconvenience to have to break the journey to charge up considering how much the thing had cost me to buy in the first place.

I wouldn't want to have to plan my journeys around charging points or face a "Top Gear Challenge" will I/won't I make it if I chose to deviate off course a little.

Admittedly, the new Teslas seem to be getting there but with the cheapest Model S starting at nigh on £47K, it's more than double the price of a new Mondeo (I'm assuming they are of a similar size). How many miles/years will it take to claw back the additional £27K?
 
Russ77 said:
Let's really be honest with ourselves..... until electric cars have a longer range, charge a lot quicker and aren't massively more expensive than their petrol/diesel peers, they're not going to be driven by the masses.

I do two, maybe three trips per year that require me to travel 200-300 miles in a single journey. It would still be a massive inconvenience to have to break the journey to charge up considering how much the thing had cost me to buy in the first place.

I wouldn't want to have to plan my journeys around charging points or face a "Top Gear Challenge" will I/won't I make it if I chose to deviate off course a little.

Admittedly, the new Teslas seem to be getting there but with the cheapest Model S starting at nigh on £47K, it's more than double the price of a new Mondeo (I'm assuming they are of a similar size). How many miles/years will it take to claw back the additional £27K?
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So you don't take a brake after driving for 200 miles? Let alone 300 miles. Seems pretty dangerous to me to share the roads with you. A minimum break of 15 minutes after each 2 hours of driving is recommended. By the time you get a coffee, do a wee, have a little stretch the vehicle is charged 80% again.

Model S is quite a bit larger than a Mondeo. It is a spacious 7 seater. The model 3 at US$35,000 is pitched against the likes of Mondeo; a segment currently mainly occupied by the Prius. But other really good vehicles are like the Mitsubishi PHEV, a couple of friends have them and I must admit I'm impressed.

mondeo_tesla_s.png
 
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Model S is size of E-class/A6, slightly bigger than Mondeo. Model 3 will be 3 series/C class sized with comparable price.

People always say charge quicker, but considering most spend 10 min at service stations anyway, 20 min isn't that much worse. Fast charging will get the battery up to 80% within that time. 80% of 200 miles is 160 miles, more than enough for your next quick break.
 
dejongj said:
So you don't take a brake after driving for 200 miles? Let alone 300 miles.
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Where did I say that? ;)

Sometimes I may take a break after an hour depending on the journey/traffic etc. However where I stop isn't dictated by whether there's a suitable charging point or not :)
 
Russ77 said:
snip...

I do two, maybe three trips per year that require me to travel 200-300 miles in a single journey. It would still be a massive inconvenience to have to break the journey to charge up considering how much the thing had cost me to buy in the first place.

I
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Russ77 said:
Where did I say that? ;)

Sometimes I may take a break after an hour depending on the journey/traffic etc. However where I stop isn't dictated by whether there's a suitable charging point or not :)
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Your words not mine, glad to hear that you didn't meant that ;)
 
rjbell said:
Not much in it anymore with some of the new eco turbo petrol's. Then when you need new injectors and DPF on your diesel it eats up any savings that might have been and some :).

P.s they are fast becoming the bad guys and likely to start getting a hammering. VW are releasing a petrol transporter this year i think the wind is changing.
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I used to have a petrol transporter, a diesel one too, :) I didn't realise they no longer made them.
 
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jakeblu said:
I used to have a petrol transporter, a diesel one too, :) I didn't realise they no longer made them.
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When I was growing up, the dad of a friend put a Citroen SM engine in a transporter. That was nice until it dropped out of it when we were 100Km away with the baseball team.
 
Russ77 said:
They were my words "break the journey up to charge" ;) ;)
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Exactly, you need a break anyway. What difference does it make to charge whilst you are having your break?

Absolutely fine if you just don't like electric cars but this too me reeks like just an excuse. Which is fine as well, whatever works for people :thumbs:
 
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dejongj said:
Exactly, you need a break anyway. What difference does it make to charge whilst you are having your break?

Absolutely fine if you just don't like electric cars but this too me reeks like just an excuse. Which is fine as well, whatever works for people (y)
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I drive from SW France to Caen or St Malo at least 4 times a year plus the return journey ....... have done for almost 30 years ...... I never take a break unless I want a pee - never had a problem - full tank of diesel get me the whole way
 
dejongj said:
Exactly, you need a break anyway. What difference does it make to charge whilst you are having your break?

Absolutely fine if you just don't like electric cars but this too me reeks like just an excuse. Which is fine as well, whatever works for people (y)
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I don't dislike electric cars, far from it. I'd love to own one of the latest Tesla models, the range, charging time and performance is fantastic.

My point is that for the masses it's going to be way out of reach because of the price.

Even the more affordable (I use that relative to the expensive electric cars rather than non-electric) electric cars still have their drawbacks in terms of performance & range unless you do pretty low mileage.
 
BillN_33 said:
I drive from SW France to Caen or St Malo at least 4 times a year plus the return journey ....... have done for almost 30 years ...... I never take a break unless I want a pee - never had a problem - full tank of diesel get me the whole way
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Never until that one time ;) and one time is all it takes. I think it is sensible guidance to have regular breaks every two hours or so.
 
I'll bet a pound to a pinch of s*** that it still costs the same/more per mile on electricity as it does petrol/diesel. Even if you don't consider the higher price of the electric cars in the first place. And where is the electricity used to charge the car coming from? Oil fired power stations, doh!
 
DorsetDude said:
I'll bet a pound to a pinch of s*** that it still costs the same/more per mile on electricity as it does petrol/diesel. Even if you don't consider the higher price of the electric cars in the first place. And where is the electricity used to charge the car coming from? Oil fired power stations, doh!
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For now it is free to charge ;) don't think it will remain like that when it takes off.

The home charging station is tax deductible and on night tariff considerably cheaper to fill up then petrol or diesel is. Even including purchase price, for us who can offset again business use can gain some serious financial advantages.

But let's be real, this is a world apart from what the OP is looking at. Unless the OP can fit an electric chair in something like a Mitsubishi PHEV and offset it against business use.
 
DorsetDude said:
I'll bet a pound to a pinch of s*** that it still costs the same/more per mile on electricity as it does petrol/diesel. Even if you don't consider the higher price of the electric cars in the first place. And where is the electricity used to charge the car coming from? Oil fired power stations, doh!
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Not the way we are going: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_United_Kingdom
In the second quarter of 2015, renewable electricity penetration exceeded 25% and coal generation for the first time.
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My next car will be charged by my solar panels. :D


sorry for dragging this off topic.....
 
andy700 said:
Are there seriously any advantages over petrol, diesel or hybrid from a very expensive electric car?
This is a serious question, because big, sports cars, especially luxury ones, are normally seen as tourers, for taking on long driving holidays across Europe for instance. How on earth can you manage that in an electric car which may need charging every couple of hundred miles or so?
For quite a rare car, there seem to be quite a few for sale - starting at around £50K. I wonder why folks are getting rid of them after only a couple of years and with low mileages?

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/search/...radius/1500/onesearchad/used/quicksearch/true
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The globalists trade them in before depreciation due to mileage and get a newer more fancy Tesla?! The SUV is slowly coming out and I guess looks very tempting.

I wouldn't discount Mitsubishi PHEV either. Its a pretty good package with some key differences.

andy700 said:
Skoda actually offer to replace the DMF/clutch with a solid flywheel option if the customer wants it. Mine has been on there for four years now, and it drives a lot smoother than it did with the DMF.
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All taxi drivers around the country seem to support this idea. DMF is pretty much a requirement for DSG type boxes, but antiquated manuals appear to be just fine with SMF at least with VW engines.
 
Alan Clogwyn said:
Probably in a narrow boat now, a reasonably common application. (I never got to work on one during my time on the canals, but they were generally hated as being very finnicky things by the others at the yard).

My Dad swears by diesels for his commute of 100 miles daily, where he is currently getting 50-60mpg out of a 2.2CDTi Civic, it's not slow either, at least on turbo anyway. (Boot it in 2nd and it will easily leave my FTO standing, just a shame it won't go round a bend!)
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I loved driving my mates Turbo Diesel Montego estate, not for its looks but for when you kicked the pedal and that Turbo kicked in. I did get a lot of abusive gestures from cyclists, as they would be engulfed in Turbo boost smoke :D
 
Just looking at the Ford Tourneo Connect, and going by what car says, and the Petrol engine does not look too good. I know fuel consumption has a lot to do with how you drive, and many other factors. But using this as a guideline, and knowing how we drive, can give a rough idea what to expect.

http://www.whatcar.com/news/2014-ford-tourneo-connect-review-updated/

Ford Tourneo Connect 1.6 TDCi 95 PS
Engine size 1.6-litre diesel
Price from £14,745
Power 94bhp
Torque 162lb ft
0-62mph 14.7 sec
Top speed 100mph
Fuel economy 56.5mpg
CO2 130g/km

-------------------------------------------------------------
Ford Tourneo Connect 1.6 EcoBoost
Engine size 1.6-litre petrol
Price from £18,895
Power 148bhp
Torque 177lb ft
0-62mph 10.9 sec
Top speed 108mph
Fuel economy 35.3mpg
CO2 184g/km

The petrol engine does not look too good at all. Oh well, deffo have to go in and have a nosey tomorrow. We have made an appointment to go and see what is what :)
 
BillN_33 said:
these new small petrol engines are really good, but do you reckon a 0.9 litre turbo petrol will be more robust than a 2.0 turbo Diesel

(reliability is really important for me)
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Don't know about other manufacturers engines but I am currently testing and developing the next Ford 1.0 Ecoboost due to go into production next year. I can confirm that in any of its outputs 100PS, 125PS and 140PS it isn't even trying. So yes the Ford one at least is robust. Even diesel engines are getting smaller in capacity and with increased power.
dejongj said:
Model S is quite a bit larger than a Mondeo. It is a spacious 7 seater.
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I saw a Model S in a car park this afternoon, to say a sizeable chunk of the car was overhanging the length of the parking space would be an understatement.
 
jonbeeza said:
Just looking at the Ford Tourneo Connect, and going by what car says, and the Petrol engine does not look too good. I know fuel consumption has a lot to do with how you drive, and many other factors. But using this as a guideline, and knowing how we drive, can give a rough idea what to expect.

http://www.whatcar.com/news/2014-ford-tourneo-connect-review-updated/

Ford Tourneo Connect 1.6 TDCi 95 PS
Engine size 1.6-litre diesel
Price from £14,745
Power 94bhp
Torque 162lb ft
0-62mph 14.7 sec
Top speed 100mph
Fuel economy 56.5mpg
CO2 130g/km

-------------------------------------------------------------
Ford Tourneo Connect 1.6 EcoBoost
Engine size 1.6-litre petrol
Price from £18,895
Power 148bhp
Torque 177lb ft
0-62mph 10.9 sec
Top speed 108mph
Fuel economy 35.3mpg
CO2 184g/km

The petrol engine does not look too good at all. Oh well, deffo have to go in and have a nosey tomorrow. We have made an appointment to go and see what is what :)
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That's the wrong petrol engine, you should be looking at the 125PS 1.0 Ecoboost. (Assuming it is available as a Powershift / Auto)
 
nilagin said:
Don't know about other manufacturers engines but I am currently testing and developing the next Ford 1.0 Ecoboost due to go into production next year. I can confirm that in any of its outputs 100PS, 125PS and 140PS it isn't even trying. So yes the Ford one at least is robust. Even diesel engines are getting smaller in capacity and with increased power.

what I don't really understand, (well I do it's marketing), why they charge £1,000 more for the same engine because it is 125bhp and not 100 bhp .....if you know what I mean .. the bits and pieces are all usually the same and all they do is just programme the ECU, or whatever they call it, in a slightly different way - or am I missing something
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nilagin said:
That's the wrong petrol engine, you should be looking at the 125PS 1.0 Ecoboost. (Assuming it is available as a Powershift / Auto)
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I think that may be an old model, can't see anything like that listed.

But just something to ask the sales person tomorrow. Going to ask what models they have in Automatic, and what the best option is for fuel economy. But got a feeling there may only be very limited options on the Grand Tourneo..
 
wuyanxu said:
Advantages of Tesla: no engine inside the crumble zone so much safer
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Are you sure about that? I compared it NCAP results with a 2014 Mondeo and the Mondeo driver would sustain less injuries in a front end crash and pedestrian ratings were identical.
 
jonbeeza said:
I think that may be an old model, can't see anything like that listed.

But just something to ask the sales person tomorrow. Going to ask what models they have in Automatic, and what the best option is for fuel economy. But got a feeling there may only be very limited options on the Grand Tourneo..
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I just looked at current brochure online, http://www.ford.co.uk/cs/BlobServer...cation/pdf&blobwhere=1214596370443&blobkey=id The only Automatic is a 1.5 TDCi 120PS.
 
nilagin said:
I just looked at current brochure online, http://www.ford.co.uk/cs/BlobServer?blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobcol=urldata&blobheadervalue1=attachment;filename="all-new-tourneo-connect-ebrochure.pdf"&blobheadervalue2=abinary;charset=UTF-8&blobheadername1=Content-Disposition&blobheadername2=MDT-Type&blobheader=application/pdf&blobwhere=1214596370443&blobkey=id The only Automatic is a 1.5 TDCi 120PS.
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Had an idea that there was only one or two we could go for, deffo has to be an auto as missus can only drive an auto. So instead of going tomorrow to see what model we can have, probably more a case of what colour do we want :)
 
jonbeeza said:
Had an idea that there was only one or two we could go for, deffo has to be an auto as missus can only drive an auto. So instead of going tomorrow to see what model we can have, probably more a case of what colour do we want :)
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But but but your missus doesn't like van based cars ;) :p
 
Morally you will be better off in the petrol instead of the hideous stinking diesel.
 
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