Improving the TP sharing forums

[lost]

Forget everything i said earlier why not make it simple
2 Forums to every title

1 Birds For sharing forum thats what it is

2 Birds for critique forum only critque and image must be discussed
in detail

Same with all the other Forums

Every ones happy. Job done now im off to do something i enjoy

Take some photos i can throughly recommend it

Regards
Richard

 

[Dinsdale]

Sorry this wasn't meant to start like a dummy spit but...

Why don't we just have two forums (or is it fora?) One for the "Look at my pictures" posts and one for those wanting critique, advice or otherwise. Leave the choice up to the OP it's very simple, left hand or right hand, black or white? Surely we're all capable of that aren't we? If people post in the critique forum they'll have to accept that if they get something they don't like... tough! Next time post in the right forum. If somebody is outrageously agressive in their critique I believe there is a "report this thread" system in place. Three stikes and you're out! We are all supposed to be adults for crying out loud.
Why do we have to have tag this and tag that or RED this and AMBER that? This is overcomplciating... err complicating things.
I thought, some time ago in the dim distant past, that the general jist of this thread was to shorten the number of lengthy threads with far too many photos for people to go "oo nice photo" at. I need a lie down...

As for improving the forum I think the Mods have done an excellent job. However, I ask myself this, if the forum membership is 25,000 (I know a good proportion of that would be people who register to have a look and then don't come back) and with 10,000 active members. A substantial number of those are going to be what we on another forum termed "lurkers" i.e. those sitting in the background sapping info out of the forum and not contributing anything in return. But looking above in the thread there's only about say 20 at most contributing to the thread. Either the rest don't give a dam or the forum must be running pretty well as it is.

I'll get me coat...

 

[erding]

Forget everything i said earlier why not make it simple
2 Forums to every title

1 Birds For sharing forum thats what it is

2 Birds for critique forum only critque and image must be discussed
in detail

Same with all the other Forums

Wouldn't it be even simpler just to keep the existing single bird forum and the OP indicating if they want CC or any particular advise, and in the absence of that the image(s) are just for sharing. This model then being applied to all other sharing forums.

 

[Amp34]

Sorry this wasn't meant to start like a dummy spit but...

Why don't we just have two forums (or is it fora?) One for the "Look at my pictures" posts and one for those wanting critique, advice or otherwise. Leave the choice up to the OP it's very simple, left hand or right hand, black or white? Surely we're all capable of that aren't we? If people post in the critique forum they'll have to accept that if they get something they don't like... tough! Next time post in the right forum. If somebody is outrageously agressive in their critique I believe there is a "report this thread" system in place. Three stikes and you're out! We are all supposed to be adults for crying out loud.
Why do we have to have tag this and tag that or RED this and AMBER that? This is overcomplciating... err complicating things.
I thought, some time ago in the dim distant past, that the general jist of this thread was to shorten the number of lengthy threads with far too many photos for people to go "oo nice photo" at. I need a lie down...

So essentially we want more subforums in subforums? I don't kno about others but I think we almost have too many subforums already. There is no way you can really look through all of them and subforums mean even more winding through the forum to get anywhere. The beauty of tags would be that we don't need twice the number of subforums we have already, if you could just have a drop down menu at the top of each subforum where you could choose only ones for crit or ones for pleasure if wanted. You would end up with the same thing without the dozen or more new subforums, whilst still being able to view all the threads of interest without having to go into another subforum.

This thread was in response to the thread that I posted, which was about the lack of crit. This lack of crit seems to be (partly) caused by people worried about criting work. The solution to that worry is now being discussed.

Wouldn't it be even simpler just to keep the existing single bird forum and the OP indicating if they want CC or any particular advise, and in the absence of that the image(s) are just for sharing. This model then being applied to all other sharing forums.

But isn't that just what we have now? Problem is it doesn't seem to be working as well as it should.

 

[fracster]

"Fracster/AWP Critique if you really must "

.

I think a few people opened the book, read one page and made a judgement on me Rob.

So be it, such is life..........

Some good points raised here, The Miserable Badgers make sense, as do Charlies and quite a few others. Problem is that no matter what the site owners do, they can`t please everybody.

 

[lost]

Wouldn't it be even simpler just to keep the existing single bird forum and the OP indicating if they want CC or any particular advise, and in the absence of that the image(s) are just for sharing. This model then being applied to all other sharing forums.

The only reason i came up with that idea is that it seperates the 2 no more moaning that there's to many posts and people who only want to critque a image don't have to look to far they are all on one forum section. The images for sharing forum would probably suit long running threads , Bird ID, Behaviour traits And Humerous posts + pictures people wanted looked at and shared with a soft pointer or 2 or not. I think it's the best i can come up with so im now going to leave it to others and the site owners and watch what happens.

Regards
Richard

 

[MisterE]

If you want constructive or destructive criticism post just one, or no more than two photos. If you don't give a rat's ass what people think, post the max of 6. Have newbies (or maybe everybody) tick a box saying they've read and understood this before allowing them to post photos. Done.

 

[RobertP]

Looking at some of the ideas earlier in the thread how about..

A simple [critique please] prefix (like in the bargains section) that you choose if you want indepth (or whatever you get) critique. default is no prefix so you posted for sharing and nice shot only. Don't ask don't get.

All become fluffy kittens sections unless you choose the prefix, in depth goes and so does the renamed fluffy kittens just for sharing section.

nsfw cant have critique as well just to keep it simple. Maybe say 2 images max if you choose critique and you must add some explanation text of what you tried/need help on or it don't count?

 

[RKC]

Looking at some of the ideas earlier in the thread how about..

A simple [critique please] prefix (like in the bargains section) that you choose if you want indepth (or whatever you get) critique. default is no prefix so you posted for sharing and nice shot only. Don't ask don't get.

sounds plain simple and good to me

Maybe say 2 images max if you choose critique and you must add some explanation text of what you tried/need help on or it don't count?

sounds good to me, certainly think a max of two images say for comparism good idea

 

[Dark Star]

I think the prefix should be for NO C+C as the default should be C+C unless you request otherwise! Just my view. The majority of shots are here for C+C let the minority use a prefix

4 better than 2 as well

 

[swag72]

Do you know, I made some comments in the previous thread about TP becoming like Flickr, and I still believe that it is up to the individual to feel where their conscience leads them.

I know that it is really difficult to come up with a crit system that everyone feels comfortable with and that works. For me? the conscience one works every time. In fact, I would say that an occassional thread like this pricks peoples conscience enough to get them looking at how they are contributing to the forum.

Case in point? ................. Sorry Frac ...................... You gave some real invaluable help to a newer member about their pics - Do we need to revamp the whole forum?

 

[CGeezer]

Why not take this opportunity to make the photo post size up to 1024 on the longest size and the maximum photo's down to three or four this should then bring TP into line with other sites and mean that I only have to resize once. I mean no one has a 800px screen do they???

 

[Dark Star]

Do you know, I made some comments in the previous thread about TP becoming like Flickr, and I still believe that it is up to the individual to feel where their conscience leads them.

I know that it is really difficult to come up with a crit system that everyone feels comfortable with and that works. For me? the conscience one works every time. In fact, I would say that an occassional thread like this pricks peoples conscience enough to get them looking at how they are contributing to the forum.

Case in point? ................. Sorry Frac ...................... You gave some real invaluable help to a newer member about their pics - Do we need to revamp the whole forum?

Funny you should say that it was one such thread many moons ago that made me re-appraise my style of comment.

I don't think we need to over engineer the solution...just lead by example!

This is me speaking as a contributor rather than a mod

 

[swag72]

I don't think we need to over engineer the solution...just lead by example!

I think that this is the answer to it all - If only we could all lead by example as well as remember the helpful advice we all received as new forum members - Would we even be having this discussion now :shrug:

 

[karmagarda]

Another question too, in regards to editing of other members photos, we have a clearly visible "Edit" check, but it's not clear to those not aware of it if you don't want people to edit your photos? Could we have a big dirty X or something!

By the way, personally I'm not awfully bothered by people editing my photos, but I do think there are people who really don't like it.

 

[Matt]

Why not take this opportunity to make the photo post size up to 1024 on the longest size and the maximum photo's down to three or four this should then bring TP into line with other sites and mean that I only have to resize once. I mean no one has a 800px screen do they???

or maybe 800x is a good size and other sites should allow it as an option, less chance of having your image poached at 800x

 

[sawman]

Funny you should say that it was one such thread many moons ago that made me re-appraise my style of comment.

I don't think we need to over engineer the solution...just lead by example!

This is me speaking as a contributor rather than a mod

The voice of common sense.

 

[RobertP]

I think there are many more that want to share their pictures than there are those wanting comment for personal improvement. There have been some competent photographers calling for an improvement in critique. Do they need help or just want telling in detail how good they are? It's rewarding to have positive comments from someone that has considered their reply but the reality is there are not that many people willing to give such critique.

Hence I think the whole sharing forum should be considered just that - simple sharing. In amongst the other posts are those where people are using a prefix to pick theirs out for more detailed comment. In order to qualify for that comment they have to add some text and not just post a picture or two with C&C after it.

We've had this topic many times before but there simply aren't the 'experts' sitting by and keen to get typing. With only a minority of threads requiring detailed comment they might be inclined to give it when they can.

 

[RobertP]

I don't think we need to over engineer the solution...just lead by example!

You can only lead by example for so long. I've tried it in the past in the Landscapes section. It takes a few hours to go through just one page leaving considered comments and you just can't keep it up.

In the end it will just revert to nice shot once you take a day or two off.

We need much less critiqued content I think. That way there is a chance of improved quality.

A page of 30 landscapes post where 4 requested critique is do-able. 26 posts of I like' it' or 'sorry not to my taste' don't take too long.

 

[Dark Star]

You can only lead by example for so long. I've tried it in the past in the Landscapes section. It takes a few hours to go through just one page leaving considered comments and you just can't keep it up.

I take your point Robert but I firmly believe any system lead solution will still fall foul of human nature I don't believe that restricting what people can say on a non C+C flagged thread will work

Nor do we need experts to pass comment and critique - plenty of folk here are more than capable of passing decent critique and comment - in fact every single one of them with access to a keyboard can

I suspect I'm being totally naive

 

[RobertP]

I don't believe that restricting what people can say on a non C+C flagged thread will work

I'm not suggesting any restriction on what people say in reply to a simple sharing thread. they might get a full critique, just don't expect one as they haven't said they need it.

The system is as simple as it gets. You flag your thread with a prefix if you want people to look at it carefully. If they post a dozen pictures or one and no text of their own then a member reports the post. We come and remove the prefix and give them some nice blue staff text saying what happened. until they edit it, it's a sharing thread only.

edit

Nor do we need experts to pass comment and critique - plenty of folk here are more than capable of passing decent critique and comment - in fact every single one of them with access to a keyboard can

I suspect I'm being totally naive

I agree completely. Experts are not required but getting people without confidence/experience to post something more than nice shot is difficult to say the least

 

[Dark Star]

I'm not suggesting any restriction on what people say in reply to a simple sharing thread. they might get a full critique, just don't expect one as they haven't said they need it.

The system is as simple as it gets. You flag your thread with a prefix if you want people to look at it carefully. If they post a dozen pictures or one and no text of their own then a member reports the post. We come and remove the prefix and give them some nice blue staff text saying what happened. until they edit it, it's a sharing thread only.

Ok see what your saying - although the danger then becomes those of us who like to critique sensibly getting an earful because we critiqued a thread that didn't have the critique flag set

As simple as it gets is as it is now its not that broken

I can see I'm not going to win this one though

 

[fracster]

Case in point? ................. Sorry Frac ...................... You gave some real invaluable help to a newer member about their pics - Do we need to revamp the whole forum?

In all honesty Sara, I will try to help anybody, as people helped me. Maybe it is my make up that makes me go against the grain of saying great pic to pics that simply are not,I dunno.

If I post an image that i`m struggling with,see any of my landscapes for example.......,then I ask for help and guidance, if I post an image that I think is ok, yet somebody points out faults, then great,that is what this forum should be about.

But then you get threads like my S&C thread, where I don`t really want C&C and just post to show people things they don`t generally see, as Charlie does with some of his stuff.


Anyway, i`m rabbiting on now. I don`t know the answer to the problem. But I shall try to temper my forthright ways in future.

 

[Defiance]

Funny you should say that it was one such thread many moons ago that made me re-appraise my style of comment.

I don't think we need to over engineer the solution...just lead by example!

This is me speaking as a contributor rather than a mod

Another vote of agreement here for this.

I disagree, to an extent with what Robert say (sorry), I think there are enough people here capable of giving critique better than 'nice shot'. I am a beginner-intermediate photographer and can do it reasonably ok.

The key is encouragement ! i.e. getting more people to do it.

It will always be a mix of 'nice shot' and detailed crit but I don't see anything wrong with that tbh. At least 'nice shot' is honest, positive and well meaning and will encourage the poster to hopefully contribute a little themselves too.

 

[Marcel]

But then you get threads like my S&C thread, where I don`t really want C&C and just post to show people things they don`t generally see, as Charlie does with some of his stuff.

I think therein lies the problem. There really isn't anywhere forum except for the Photos for Pleasure forum, where they will probably be missed.

Ideally the main sharing forums at the moment actually are for comment and critique (so, including nice shot).

I think the way forward is to reinforce that's what theyre there for, while allowing the sharing threads to intermingle quietly, but noticable. While making the critique threads be a bit more prominent.

 

[RobertP]

I think there are enough people here capable of giving critique better than 'nice shot'. I am a beginner-intermediate photographer and can do it reasonably ok.

We have threads like this one every 6 months or less and everyone agrees that 'people' should leave better critique. Faced with the huge number of new threads per day here I can't see it happening. How many a day can you do? and for how long? When you realise very few others are doing the same it is hard to keep it up.

I'd love to see all replies going into detail whatever the experience level of the person posting but just can't see it happening - plus many posting pictures are only looking to share an image.

Diluting critique down to those that ask for it may not be ideal but I don't see we could ever have critique at the current new threads rate.

 

[Defiance]

We have threads like this one every 6 months or less and everyone agrees that 'people' should leave better critique. Faced with the huge number of new threads per day here I can't see it happening. How many a day can you do? and for how long? When you realise very few others are doing the same it is hard to keep it up.

I'd love to see all replies going into detail whatever the experience level of the person posting but just can't see it happening - plus many posting pictures are only looking to share an image.

Diluting critique down to those that ask for it may not be ideal but I don't see we could ever have critique at the current new threads rate.

With nearly 2000 members visiting every day and the number of views picture threads get, more can and should leave feedback, hence the need for encouragement. Heck, discussion threads (often repeating the same old tired topics and arguments) can easily achieve 100 posts, so why can't the photo threads achieve more too?

I agree it's not easy and it won't change overnight, but with the right level of encouragement and perhaps education over time it can.

 

[RobertP]

I'd love to be proved wrong but experience says it won't happen. Critiquing 10% of them might.

 

[Wail]

Looking to balance the two issues is proving to be rather complicated :shrug:

Let's, for now, take out one of the variables, the Fluffy Kittens. This means every picture posted on TP is open to C&C, plain and simple.

I always thought that TP was a repository of intellectual capital where we all come to share and get as much feedback as possible, be it for a picture, a technique or an attitude, etc.?

Now, let's put back the Fluffy Kittens, which is basically just showcasing personal work. But what's the point?

I mean that in all sincerity, what's the point of just showcasing a picture? Unless someone posts a picture with details as to why it was shot, what setting were taken (equipments and environmental), what techniques were used, and what (if any) post-processing was applied then I've only seen a picture to say "oh nice" or "what crap". So, what's the point?

Unless it's a Polaroid it doesn't even inspire me since I wouldn't know if it was heavily post-processed or not!

Yes, I do enjoy viewing a lot of shots to which I've commented "great shots"; but I'd rather see pictures with heavy C&C; from these I can learn and improve my skills. From these we can all become better photographers?

Bottom line, just make every picture posted on TP subjected to C&C with no exception. How much, and how heavy, the C&C is will be dependent purely on each members' maturity.

Call me radical, this is TalkPhotography , not Facebook!

 

[Kaouthia]

Call me radical, this is TalkPhotography , not Facebook!

Damn, where's the "Like" button for this comment?

 

[PsiFox]

Looking to balance the two issues is proving to be rather complicated :shrug:

Let's, for now, take out one of the variables, the Fluffy Kittens. This means every picture posted on TP is open to C&C, plain and simple.

I always thought that TP was a repository of intellectual capital where we all come to share and get as much feedback as possible, be it for a picture, a technique or an attitude, etc.?

Now, let's put back the Fluffy Kittens, which is basically just showcasing personal work. But what's the point?

I mean that in all sincerity, what's the point of just showcasing a picture? Unless someone posts a picture with details as to why it was shot, what setting were taken (equipments and environmental), what techniques were used, and what (if any) post-processing was applied then I've only seen a picture to say "oh nice" or "what crap". So, what's the point?

Unless it's a Polaroid it doesn't even inspire me since I wouldn't know if it was heavily post-processed or not!

Yes, I do enjoy viewing a lot of shots to which I've commented "great shots"; but I'd rather see pictures with heavy C&C; from these I can learn and improve my skills. From these we can all become better photographers?

Bottom line, just make every picture posted on TP subjected to C&C with no exception. How much, and how heavy, the C&C is will be dependent purely on each members' maturity.

Call me radical, this is TalkPhotography , not Facebook!

The only other alternative is the reverse of course, and everyone becomes a fluffy.

This highlights why an open discussion on how to fix it just won't work.

Personally I'd be happy with the option put forward by Wail.

 

[Kaouthia]

The only other alternative is the reverse of course, and everyone becomes a fluffy.

Then it's time to leave for a lotta folks.

 

[PsiFox]

Then it's time to leave for a lotta folks.

Hopefully not as I don't really see my tongue in cheek (devils advocate) option being taken seriously. Was just highlighting a point.

 

[littlemonster]

Hmmm I see that point too Wail.

But the other side is sometimes people may want to look at something as to find a photo of it, in a real situation isn't common. I'm not awake enough for good examples, but for instance a chick hatching from an egg - it happens probably daily, but it's not something everybody will be able to see often. Or an old car that's getting rare. And they may not be world class photos, they may be technically pretty awful, but it doesn't mean someone shouldn't enjoy the subject - as isn't that what photography is really about? Sometimes you have to say screw composition, screw the contrast, who cares if it has a blue hue and the horizon is wonky - WOW, look at what xyz got a photo of. And as a photo forum, I'm sure as much as people want to improve their photos technically, almost everyone is capable of loving a photo that is completely rubbish technically.


Sorry for that slight rant, wasn't meant to be and it's not about anyone in particular, I'm a bit wound up

However I have just convinced myself of something - perhaps the way the forum is now works, and the problem isn't the layout, or tags or anything, perhaps just right now people just need reminding that critique is fine, and the for pleasure forum is there if you don't want it critiqued.

 

[Wail]

<snip>

Sometimes you have to say screw composition, screw the contrast, who cares if it has a blue hue and the horizon is wonky - WOW, look at what xyz got a photo of. And as a photo forum, I'm sure as much as people want to improve their photos technically, almost everyone is capable of loving a photo that is completely rubbish technically.


<snip>

I wholeheartedly agree; however if the poster was to put in the comments as to why the picture was taken and what purpose it served her / him, etc., then that cuts down on the amount of C&C.

Also, regardless of why the picture was taken and what purpose it serves the original photogrpaher, there is no harm in having a bunch of members posting their personal C&C about the shot.

Afterall, C&C could also be (let's take the example of a rare car) about how the car isn't actually rare, and the one posted is just a replica. The arguments are never-ending.

 

[RobertP]

I'm all for quality critique on all picture threads posted - that is what it is supposed to be now. Truth is it doesn't happen. Too many posters and too few critics. 'Dumbing down' is not something I'm seeking to promote, just thinking a greatly reduced amount to critique targeted to where its needed might be possible to maintain.

 

[littlemonster]

Yes but imagine if you took a once in a lifetime photo, 100% never have the chance again and someone says "well next time..."

And all you can think is "WELL THERE AIN'T GOING TO BLOOMIN BE A NEXT TIME IS THERE!" And you end up suicidal realising you ruined your once in a lifetime shots, kill yourself, family members find out why, consult lawyers, forum gets shut down and everybody suffers. Think how much more horrid that would be than 1 non C&C forum?



Yes I do ocassionally get a little over-dramatic about these things.

 

[Dark Star]

I'm all for quality critique on all picture threads posted - that is what it is supposed to be now. Truth is it doesn't happen. Too many posters and too few critics. 'Dumbing down' is not something I'm seeking to promote, just thinking a greatly reduced amount to critique targeted to where its needed might be possible to maintain.

65 people have taken time to post in this thread

Those are 65 people who care about critique and I'm sure there are many times that number who have read the thread who care as well.

There are the core critiquers! (is that a word )

Encouragement and example rather than system changes for me - apart some minor ones that have spoken about like the odd renamed forum (Photos for Pleasure to Photos for Sharing?)

 

[Kaouthia]

Hopefully not as I don't really see my tongue in cheek (devils advocate) option being taken seriously. Was just highlighting a point.

I don't see anybody considering steering the site that way either, but a site may end up that way regardless if left to its own devices.

 

[Kaouthia]

Also, regardless of why the picture was taken and what purpose it serves the original photogrpaher, there is no harm in having a bunch of members posting their personal C&C about the shot.

I'm still of the opinion that if they have to explain an image, then it's already failed. Either it works as is and stands on its own merit (regardless of technical accuracy) or it doesn't.

I don't understand why people post images on here just for the sake of showing off. As has been said, there's Facebook, there's Flickr, that's why I don't post on Facebook and rarely comment on Flickr.

I always thought that this was a self governed learning establishment, of sorts. If people don't want crit, if people don't want to learn to improve their images, or hear alternate opinions, don't post, or post it specifically in the "Photos for Pleasure" area.

There's nothing wrong with the areas as they are, people just need to learn to use the correct ones. Perhaps if people post images, receive crit, and then say that don't want it (which is kinda late), they should move it to the "Photos for Pleasure" area.