I don't think so - you may have different images that would go in different sections...
I might do a shoot that encompasses nudes and portraits for example...
Shot on film and digital...
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I don't think so - you may have different images that would go in different sections...
I might do a shoot that encompasses nudes and portraits for example...
Shot on film and digital...
Trev4
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Having been a member for just over a year, I still feel a relative newbie in many ways, however, I have seen a big change in the forum and the underlying atmosphere during my time here.
Initially I was given a lot of valuable advice in the form of polite criticism, and I will always be grateful for that, and to me, that is the main element of the forum, but its not so prevalent now for the reasons already mentioned previously.
In essence I agree with these suggestions, but would like to know more about the first two before commenting.
It seems to me that there is room for 3 categories but no more, more will feed the ego stroking fraternity. I suggest, Novice, experienced, professional. All self explanatory. The experienced members are anything from having just got to grips with the basics up to the pro, Novice hasn’t got any basics. Pro, well, anyone making a living from photography. I know all these can be subdivided but I cant see the point, and I accept that there will be overlaps. The choice of category you are in is the members choice.
There is room for the 'Nice shot' brigade, but we should be encouraging them to expand on why its nice, even if its just 'The colours appeal to me' it gives the OP an idea of how their pic is being viewed.
Constructive yet polite comments should certainly be encouraged as has been said many times, no need for me to expand on that other than to agree.
I will add here that a limit to the number of pictures to a thread is a good idea, just post the best pics from your shoot. This could fall down though if anyone edits and reposts a picture to explain how they would improve it, that would have to be addressed.
Whatever happens, I truly hope the forum can carry on with its original intention, that of being a friendly community, promoting and sharing photography and knowledge, and with a bit of humour added too even if its supplied by Marcel
Initially I was given a lot of valuable advice in the form of polite criticism, and I will always be grateful for that, and to me, that is the main element of the forum, but its not so prevalent now for the reasons already mentioned previously.
I apologise in advance if I am repeating points already raised, in that case I am merely supporting their argument.
In essence I agree with these suggestions, but would like to know more about the first two before commenting.
It seems to me that there is room for 3 categories but no more, more will feed the ego stroking fraternity. I suggest, Novice, experienced, professional. All self explanatory. The experienced members are anything from having just got to grips with the basics up to the pro, Novice hasn’t got any basics. Pro, well, anyone making a living from photography. I know all these can be subdivided but I cant see the point, and I accept that there will be overlaps. The choice of category you are in is the members choice.
There is room for the 'Nice shot' brigade, but we should be encouraging them to expand on why its nice, even if its just 'The colours appeal to me' it gives the OP an idea of how their pic is being viewed.
Constructive yet polite comments should certainly be encouraged as has been said many times, no need for me to expand on that other than to agree.
I will add here that a limit to the number of pictures to a thread is a good idea, just post the best pics from your shoot. This could fall down though if anyone edits and reposts a picture to explain how they would improve it, that would have to be addressed.
Whatever happens, I truly hope the forum can carry on with its original intention, that of being a friendly community, promoting and sharing photography and knowledge, and with a bit of humour added too even if its supplied by Marcel
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TBH I'd rather leave the professional tag out altogether. The reasons are twofold.
One is that we are all photographers and I rarely comment on wildlife because I don't think I am really best placed to do it and as for motorsport? :shrug: But give me images of people and yes I do hope I know what I'm on about. So that variation alone would be enough for me to suggest "New to this lark" "Some experience" and "Experienced" That (for me) is all that is needed.
The second reason is that there is a shift in attitude towards you the minute you say you are doing this professionally. Now, what I shoot professionally and what I shoot for fun are two completely different things. If I put up a shot that a client has paid me to shoot then that is one thing, but I also like to occasionally post pics that I just like, for no other reason than that. I don't expect my fun pics to be treated any different to anyone elses just because I do sometimes get paid to take other kinds of images.
I think there is an underlying very simple solution to all of this.
The OP to post C&C welcome or No C&C required. Simple tick box.
Tick the first one and take what you get
Tick the second and live in la la land
How's that for easy?
One is that we are all photographers and I rarely comment on wildlife because I don't think I am really best placed to do it and as for motorsport? :shrug: But give me images of people and yes I do hope I know what I'm on about. So that variation alone would be enough for me to suggest "New to this lark" "Some experience" and "Experienced" That (for me) is all that is needed.
The second reason is that there is a shift in attitude towards you the minute you say you are doing this professionally. Now, what I shoot professionally and what I shoot for fun are two completely different things. If I put up a shot that a client has paid me to shoot then that is one thing, but I also like to occasionally post pics that I just like, for no other reason than that. I don't expect my fun pics to be treated any different to anyone elses just because I do sometimes get paid to take other kinds of images.
I think there is an underlying very simple solution to all of this.
The OP to post C&C welcome or No C&C required. Simple tick box.
Tick the first one and take what you get
Tick the second and live in la la land How's that for easy?
The forum seems to me to be a good place and is open to all levels of poster from the person who has just picked up their first camera right through to the ' lichfields'.
Every level has it's place and this applys ( IMHO ) to constructive critisism as well.
What might look a ' cracking shot ' to someone who has just started may look totally naff to a pro.
If we are going down the route of eliminating comments, we run the risk of creating an Elite forum where newbies / people of lesser experience or ability are put off posting because they fear that they are inferior.
Maybe the forum should be such that :-
The original poster puts up their level of competancy with the picture taken. ( this could be in the form of a tick box in your personal settings maybe )
The original poster selects what level of poster compenancy the critic must have ( i.e. he wants pro's only or newbies only, or all ) and then everyone can view the post, but only the posters with the necessary competancy in the subject can post.
The critics post should also say what lavel of competancy they are in the chosen field.
All posts should be courteous but, if you post and ask for c&c you should accept all you get and leave the moderators to deal with the non courteous posts which could be reported by anyone viewing using a ' report button' (The moderators could impose some form of sanction say a 10 day sin bin where you can't post ).
Just a few thoughts that may be wide of the mark but why change the habit of a life time !!
Every level has it's place and this applys ( IMHO ) to constructive critisism as well.
What might look a ' cracking shot ' to someone who has just started may look totally naff to a pro.
If we are going down the route of eliminating comments, we run the risk of creating an Elite forum where newbies / people of lesser experience or ability are put off posting because they fear that they are inferior.
Maybe the forum should be such that :-
The original poster puts up their level of competancy with the picture taken. ( this could be in the form of a tick box in your personal settings maybe )
The original poster selects what level of poster compenancy the critic must have ( i.e. he wants pro's only or newbies only, or all ) and then everyone can view the post, but only the posters with the necessary competancy in the subject can post.
The critics post should also say what lavel of competancy they are in the chosen field.
All posts should be courteous but, if you post and ask for c&c you should accept all you get and leave the moderators to deal with the non courteous posts which could be reported by anyone viewing using a ' report button' (The moderators could impose some form of sanction say a 10 day sin bin where you can't post ).
Just a few thoughts that may be wide of the mark but why change the habit of a life time !!
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littlemonster
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Hmmm you have a point with the pro tag, that would leave it without arguments over professional level.
I do think there needs to be at least 2 stages of C&C though - standard "Nice but could be improved by..." and then what for now I can only think to call the fracstar critique, ie pull apart an entire image with very little good to say about it. (No offence fracstar, I just gather you're not an overly... fluffy, person)
That way people who want just a few gentle points don't end up feeling useless, and those who want to know exactly what they did right or wrong get some replies perhaps saying so - and the tougher people know which pictures they can fully critique without offence.
I do think there needs to be at least 2 stages of C&C though - standard "Nice but could be improved by..." and then what for now I can only think to call the fracstar critique, ie pull apart an entire image with very little good to say about it. (No offence fracstar, I just gather you're not an overly... fluffy, person)
That way people who want just a few gentle points don't end up feeling useless, and those who want to know exactly what they did right or wrong get some replies perhaps saying so - and the tougher people know which pictures they can fully critique without offence.
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Just a few thoughts from me.
Firstly, regarding the number of shots in a thread - whilst I understand that too many can put people off, there are situations where more than the 6 allwed in a post are needed, particularly if 'story telling'. I can also add that I lose count of how many strops I see from people because they think that the 6 to a post IS already the maximum they an post [which shows that even when we don't have rules, no one reads them
] - however, I would go for a compromise on this.....
IF you want proper critique, then you MUST limit it to say 4 shots max, perhaps with a link to the rest of the collection elsewhere if needed, flickr or whatever. If however, it is more an excersize in photosharing, with critique not demanded [albeit that if its welcome you can say so] then there is no real limit - and you must accept that you probably wont get much by way of anything constructive.
I do like the idea of losing the indepth and fluffies, making all the photo areas subject based and instead having prefixes for the kind of crtique required. I am less keen on the 'rate yourself' thing, but a section in the profile that perhaps shows in your your post sidebar is your preferred genre if you have one.
just my general feelings atm ....
Firstly, regarding the number of shots in a thread - whilst I understand that too many can put people off, there are situations where more than the 6 allwed in a post are needed, particularly if 'story telling'. I can also add that I lose count of how many strops I see from people because they think that the 6 to a post IS already the maximum they an post [which shows that even when we don't have rules, no one reads them
] - however, I would go for a compromise on this.....IF you want proper critique, then you MUST limit it to say 4 shots max, perhaps with a link to the rest of the collection elsewhere if needed, flickr or whatever. If however, it is more an excersize in photosharing, with critique not demanded [albeit that if its welcome you can say so] then there is no real limit - and you must accept that you probably wont get much by way of anything constructive.
I do like the idea of losing the indepth and fluffies, making all the photo areas subject based and instead having prefixes for the kind of crtique required. I am less keen on the 'rate yourself' thing, but a section in the profile that perhaps shows in your your post sidebar is your preferred genre if you have one.
just my general feelings atm ....
lost
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You might wan't to read this thread before you believe him beyond redemption
http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=237540
It shows He's got a soft side
Im leaving now cause i believe he's got a gun and may shoot me for
this
Regards
Richard
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Im all for binning in depth, i never look in there anyway lol
I also wouldnt want Pro as a experience level, it describes the amount of money someone earns from their pictures, not what level they are at !
Maybe need a small thing under the username, that says how long you have been into photography ? can add it yourself then, does way with titles, and stops peoples egos being massaged ! then if you are new to a certain field of photography, like Rob (Arkady) recommended, you can put im new at this, could you give a bit more C&C on it please ? or something like that ?
I also wouldnt want Pro as a experience level, it describes the amount of money someone earns from their pictures, not what level they are at !
Maybe need a small thing under the username, that says how long you have been into photography ? can add it yourself then, does way with titles, and stops peoples egos being massaged ! then if you are new to a certain field of photography, like Rob (Arkady) recommended, you can put im new at this, could you give a bit more C&C on it please ? or something like that ?
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Not sure what is best here to be honest...
Def not a rating on yourself..imho Or how long you have been into photography...
" Alot of folks might have been into photography for years but only had a few hours a week to practice / others might have been into photography for 3 months but been practicing 10hrs a day 7 days a week....!!"
Personally I would say I am not a amature BUT I am a long way off a pro / decent tog imho...
MD
Def not a rating on yourself..imho Or how long you have been into photography...
" Alot of folks might have been into photography for years but only had a few hours a week to practice / others might have been into photography for 3 months but been practicing 10hrs a day 7 days a week....!!"
Personally I would say I am not a amature BUT I am a long way off a pro / decent tog imho...
MD
macky799
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Ive been on here for a few years now and its changed loads, when i first started i would post my shots up thinking they were great, back then you got loads of c+c about your pics, When i thought they were great i always got c+c from some long standing togs telling me how i could improve my shots and what to try the next time. I would like to think i listened to the comments and took them on board and i think my photography has vastly improved since then but i still want c+c so i can keep improving. I think the diffrence now is what alot of people have said already by the time someone comes to give advise about the picture theres 10 posts saying its perfect, it makes it harder to give some comments about how to make it even better then. I also agreed with everything Ian_c said in the other thread
I think the main problem is alot of people just don't like to hear that there picture isnt stunning, i never like to hear it myself but if you don't take the points on view you will never take stunning shots most of the time ( not that i take stunning shots but im always trying )
I think the main problem is alot of people just don't like to hear that there picture isnt stunning, i never like to hear it myself but if you don't take the points on view you will never take stunning shots most of the time
( not that i take stunning shots but im always trying )
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TBH I'd rather leave the professional tag out altogether. The reasons are twofold.
One is that we are all photographers and I rarely comment on wildlife because I don't think I am really best placed to do it and as for motorsport? :shrug: But give me images of people and yes I do hope I know what I'm on about. So that variation alone would be enough for me to suggest "New to this lark" "Some experience" and "Experienced" That (for me) is all that is needed.
The second reason is that there is a shift in attitude towards you the minute you say you are doing this professionally. Now, what I shoot professionally and what I shoot for fun are two completely different things. If I put up a shot that a client has paid me to shoot then that is one thing, but I also like to occasionally post pics that I just like, for no other reason than that. I don't expect my fun pics to be treated any different to anyone elses just because I do sometimes get paid to take other kinds of images.
I think there is an underlying very simple solution to all of this.
The OP to post C&C welcome or No C&C required. Simple tick box.
Tick the first one and take what you get
How's that for easy?
Seems eminently sensible to me
Have to agree with that. I sometimes post in "in depth" and if I'm lucky get one reply.
If it is understood that crit will be given if the appropriate box is ticked, no one can ( sorry should ) complain
Please also bear in mind if you want to change nothing, ask a committee to decide for you.
theMusicMan
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Posting as someone who up to about a year ago, used to frequent TP every day, and very much enjoy it posting/contributing regularly - alas, and very sadly, attitudes have changed on here.
This subject popped up a few years ago, and has already been mentioned, went only a short distance.
Like Marcel et al, I too have experienced owning a forum that has simply become a victim of its own success. It's inevitable that this happens on successful forums, and it has happened here. That's not a bad thing per sê, but it is inevitable, and obviously has consequences.
People... being the fussy things they are, have different opinions; and no matter what rules are introduced, no matter what stuff gets posted, and no matter by whom... someone somewhere will be rubbed up the wrong way and will possibly vent in a manner not conducive to the forum etiquette, setting off another series of nasty comments. I'm not sure any rules will stop this, and the good team of Mods will need to carry on tidying up the mess after the brawls; it's a shame, but with sensitive egos, over inflated self opinions (as Arkady has already correctly pointed out re driving) it's inevitable.
There's only one thing I would like to comment on re the suggestions already made in this thread, and that is... please, please, please... no 'Pro' tag in ones profile to indicate ones ability/status. Most pros (and those who are wannabe pros) on here are wonderfully good photographers and equally good people (for those who know... think DD), many of them are OK'ish, but I'm afraid it has to be said that a small percentage are pathetically pompous and cripplingly arrogant, and are so far up their own rear ends that they spoil it for many people - myself included, and is why I no longer contribute, nor wish to contribute anywhere near as much as I used to.
To have 'Pro' as a status/experience indicator in ones profile is, in my humble opinion, absolutely and totally the wrong thing to do.
This subject popped up a few years ago, and has already been mentioned, went only a short distance.
Like Marcel et al, I too have experienced owning a forum that has simply become a victim of its own success. It's inevitable that this happens on successful forums, and it has happened here. That's not a bad thing per sê, but it is inevitable, and obviously has consequences.
People... being the fussy things they are, have different opinions; and no matter what rules are introduced, no matter what stuff gets posted, and no matter by whom... someone somewhere will be rubbed up the wrong way and will possibly vent in a manner not conducive to the forum etiquette, setting off another series of nasty comments. I'm not sure any rules will stop this, and the good team of Mods will need to carry on tidying up the mess after the brawls; it's a shame, but with sensitive egos, over inflated self opinions (as Arkady has already correctly pointed out re driving) it's inevitable.
There's only one thing I would like to comment on re the suggestions already made in this thread, and that is... please, please, please... no 'Pro' tag in ones profile to indicate ones ability/status. Most pros (and those who are wannabe pros) on here are wonderfully good photographers and equally good people (for those who know... think DD), many of them are OK'ish, but I'm afraid it has to be said that a small percentage are pathetically pompous and cripplingly arrogant, and are so far up their own rear ends that they spoil it for many people - myself included, and is why I no longer contribute, nor wish to contribute anywhere near as much as I used to.
To have 'Pro' as a status/experience indicator in ones profile is, in my humble opinion, absolutely and totally the wrong thing to do.
macky799
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How about getting a sort of mentor system set up where some of the great togs we have on here taking some of the newbies that really want some proper c+c and help them along, might be hard to do but just a thought.
If it wasnt for people like MD, CT and IAN_C to name a few but there were deff more giving me some great c+c then i would have given up about 6 months after i started
If it wasnt for people like MD, CT and IAN_C to name a few but there were deff more giving me some great c+c then i would have given up about 6 months after i started
BigSoy
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How about a little carrot instead of stick (not that there is actually a stick - but maybe trying to construct the right set of "rules" to encourage good crit is not the right answer)...
How about a system which tallies up the amount of crit people give - indicated by [crit][/crit] tags in a post (and with nice shot, excellent, etc excluded from the tally within the tags) and then something that runs over the post database to count up crit per user to deliver some kind of kudos system- maybe with a "critic of the month", "critic of the year", "wildlife critic" award system to encourage people to participate?
And after having read this thread, think I'll go and edit my latest post asking for crit which so far has zero replies to remove a few pictures...
How about a system which tallies up the amount of crit people give - indicated by [crit][/crit] tags in a post (and with nice shot, excellent, etc excluded from the tally within the tags) and then something that runs over the post database to count up crit per user to deliver some kind of kudos system- maybe with a "critic of the month", "critic of the year", "wildlife critic" award system to encourage people to participate?
And after having read this thread, think I'll go and edit my latest post asking for crit which so far has zero replies to remove a few pictures...
Beagletorque
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What about a "handicap" system as in golf. People get a score out of 10 for a shot based on what other people think (may be a rolling vote?), you then run an average score as a member and your pictures are marked based on that score. If your average is way up then expectations will be high of your work. TP tog of the year could be the tog with the highest rating? Newbies etc.. could opt out?..... Could work with a bit more thought!
Amp34
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One of those threads was the reason I finally went "over the edge".
Then it took me 2 days to find the thread again...:bonk:
I agree, it's going to be a very hard task and, as mentioned, it's going to be very difficult to get the the critique forum "back" to the "way it was" (with regard to more critique) when the forum was quite small.
I don't think there is any problem with an exceptional shot getting the "brilliant!" posts, just not the mediocre posts.
I'm one of those guilty of this tbh. I go away for a few days at a time specifically to shoot, rather than a constant stream of 1 or two images, this means when I get back and process the images I have half a dozen or so good shots that tell a "story" and that I'd like critiquing. That means I generally dump them all in one thread at one time... I agree that the half a dozen threads at a time with a single photo in is a bit silly. I'd suggest (and it's something I usually try and ask in these types of thread) that you pick out one or two common issues / the biggest issues in the set / choose one photo to pick apart, not try and pick apart every photo equally.
This is why I think the idea of only allowing a certain amount of images to be posted over a day or two could be unworkable, or at least a pain in the ****. It's something I don't have an answer to however and maybe it's something I and others need to change.
There does seem to be a bit of an issue with what critique means. I always ask for some in my threads, but that doesn't seem to help, probably due to the fact so many don't like bad critiqne. Maybe some kind of disclaimer prominently placed at the top of the photo forum stating what you should expect when asking for critique? That way maybe people will become start thinking a bit more before asking for it?
I don't think the competency option is really needed however, generally you can tell from the image itself and the post count what their competancy is. Either way if the image is "lacking" some of the basic techniques (such as poor exposure, blown highlights and very bad composition) then just pick up on those, no point picking about the minute issues (crow in the background, slight composition issue etc) if the basics need mentioning.
I think the type of critique tag may work, problem is you may get all the photos just displayed getting all the views because people can't be bothered to critique at the time, leading to no change. On the other hand three options may work, something like "red" (just for show, no picking apart), "amber" (be gentle) and "green" (rip it apart). That would also mean there is no need for the in depth section, they are the "green" ones.
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Another idea - howsabout a minimum character requirement to respond in the crit sections? At the very least it would make people say why they like the shot and would force people to put more thought into their posts? It could also be implemented by the forum software (I think?).
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Amp34
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Actually, just having finished the first page I think one solution to quite a bit of the problem may be to ban/frown upon posts with just an image. Maybe try push a stance where each thread/photo should have a bit of description to go with it. Obviously I don't mean an essay but just a couple of lines pointing out what you were trying to achieve, which would hopefully give people an idea on the type of critique to give and also the ability of the poster.
Something like:
"This is my first real go at portraits so I got my friend to sit for me so I could have a play around with the flashes. I decided to try and pose her in a friendly manner..." etc.
"I was trying to capture the soul of the place, the brooding nature of the mountains and cloud, alongside the desolate landscape..."
Hopefuly not too philosophical/up your own arse but just something to put the image into perspective. Obviously not all photos have that but something basic could be posted along with it.
Something like:
"This is my first real go at portraits so I got my friend to sit for me so I could have a play around with the flashes. I decided to try and pose her in a friendly manner..." etc.
"I was trying to capture the soul of the place, the brooding nature of the mountains and cloud, alongside the desolate landscape..."
Hopefuly not too philosophical/up your own arse
but just something to put the image into perspective. Obviously not all photos have that but something basic could be posted along with it.
Kaouthia
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Shooting info could be useful too for those that are wanting to learn a bit more about shutter/iso/aperture relationships, tips for shooting common subjects (sunsets, etc), long exposure effects, etc.
It can also give people another starting point if they're trying to receive critique - eg. shutter speeds being too fast when trying to mix ambient with flash, for example.
Yes, I know there's EXIF addons for many browsers out there, but not everybody saves EXIF info into their images (or even know how to).
It can also give people another starting point if they're trying to receive critique - eg. shutter speeds being too fast when trying to mix ambient with flash, for example.
Yes, I know there's EXIF addons for many browsers out there, but not everybody saves EXIF info into their images (or even know how to).
Amp34
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Although I said I was against a competency option that may actually work quite well. The only issue again is that each section demands different skills. A good landscape artist can be rubbish at portraits.
You also have the issue of one or two good/bad images skewing the score massively if the poster only posts a few photos.
Flash In The Pan
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The majority of posters (particularly those new to the site/hobby) don't want their images torn to shreads and their egos deflated, they want to be told it's a "nice shot". Nor, I would imagine, do they want to have to write a description of each picture (although I think that's an excellent idea and shoud be mandatory ) and as for having to provide the EXIF data........
Ultimately I don't think any amount of tinkering will make one iota of difference - unless the site is going to be heavily policed nothing will change.
) and as for having to provide the EXIF data........Ultimately I don't think any amount of tinkering will make one iota of difference - unless the site is going to be heavily policed nothing will change.
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Personally I feel that to have to state what level of tog you are at is a none starter for me.
Not too keen on a points system either.
I (speaking personally) enjoy sharing my shots with the TP members who are interested.
What is so wrong with sharing just for the sake of enjoying each others work?
If it all gets too formal with points,level of experience etc etc I doubt I would bother posting any more pics.
Not too keen on a points system either.
I (speaking personally) enjoy sharing my shots with the TP members who are interested.
What is so wrong with sharing just for the sake of enjoying each others work?
If it all gets too formal with points,level of experience etc etc I doubt I would bother posting any more pics.
"
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different people want different things from the forums, trying to force people to use the forums in a certain way just isn't something i can see happening imho
someone asks what do you think and it's an different response to what can i do to improve it
also improving it needs to be set in criteria other wise it's just improving it to each persons liking, who are you taking the photo for? you or someone else?
i rarely if ever post my images for crit because most of the time i like them which is all that matters to me, if i wanted crit i'd ask for it and probably based around a purpose i.e to improve for clients
when most people ask for crit they've got no purpose and it's their personal photo, what they're asking for the majority of the time is a pat on the back, which isn't a bad thing because people need a boost sometimes
there are just too many different personality types and subjects and levels of competence for this to work imho
my favourite forum ever was when i did design, it was a close knit community of skilled people who'd help new users if they'd try themselves, they didn't have the patience to babysit and the people who were really interested in design stuck around and took the flak and it made people improve, if the sort of responses people gave which were just brutally honest and what the majority of the public would think were used on here there would be an uproar, there was banter and the occasional flame war but lots of quality crit
this forum is trying to be too many things to too many people and you can't please everyone all the time imho, it's a good forum, if people want deep crit ask for it at the start of your thread, if you don't then again don't ask for it
i'm not sure it really needs to change, i'm not really fussed about the amount of "nice shot" comments tbh because it's the essence of what this forum is "friendliest blah blah blah"
i dunno, what is the "mission statement" of the forum and what do the owners want from it? because realistically there are too many users to ask them what they think
someone asks what do you think and it's an different response to what can i do to improve it
also improving it needs to be set in criteria other wise it's just improving it to each persons liking, who are you taking the photo for? you or someone else?
i rarely if ever post my images for crit because most of the time i like them which is all that matters to me, if i wanted crit i'd ask for it and probably based around a purpose i.e to improve for clients
when most people ask for crit they've got no purpose and it's their personal photo, what they're asking for the majority of the time is a pat on the back, which isn't a bad thing because people need a boost sometimes
there are just too many different personality types and subjects and levels of competence for this to work imho
my favourite forum ever was when i did design, it was a close knit community of skilled people who'd help new users if they'd try themselves, they didn't have the patience to babysit and the people who were really interested in design stuck around and took the flak and it made people improve, if the sort of responses people gave which were just brutally honest and what the majority of the public would think were used on here there would be an uproar, there was banter and the occasional flame war but lots of quality crit
this forum is trying to be too many things to too many people and you can't please everyone all the time imho, it's a good forum, if people want deep crit ask for it at the start of your thread, if you don't then again don't ask for it
i'm not sure it really needs to change, i'm not really fussed about the amount of "nice shot" comments tbh because it's the essence of what this forum is "friendliest blah blah blah"
i dunno, what is the "mission statement" of the forum and what do the owners want from it? because realistically there are too many users to ask them what they think
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oh with regards to what's suggested it all sounds reasonably good, not sure about the user skill section but if so then definately no pro
possibly something to indicate whether the photo is for professional crit or personal crit
and to get rid of nss some kind of +1 system where people could just click a button to say yeah i like this and the photo would get an extra point in some area, leaving the text bit for actual comments a bit like facebook in that respect (26 users like this etc)
however like i've said that's just my thoughts if you are going to change something
possibly something to indicate whether the photo is for professional crit or personal crit
and to get rid of nss some kind of +1 system where people could just click a button to say yeah i like this and the photo would get an extra point in some area, leaving the text bit for actual comments a bit like facebook in that respect (26 users like this etc)
however like i've said that's just my thoughts if you are going to change something
erding
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Interesting views and comments raised so far. My views are:
on looking over the details in the Quick links > my posts section it shows that for a thread to achieve a 10% reply to view rate is good with many not even getting that much - bear in mind that within that 10% it is very likely that the OP has replied to comments posted. In my view that is poor - certainly doesn't encourage peeps to spend time working on an image and posting.
A comment - even 'nice shot' whilst not ideal is better than no comment. A point by many newcomers is that they don't feel that they have the experience/technical knowledge/confidence to post comments on a image. It's very easy to forget our early days of posting comments - when 'nice shot' was a safe and easy comment to make, however if that hurdle was not taken no further comments would have been possible.
As we are well aware photography is always going to be subjective and hence a image is likely to attract differing opinions and people should be encouraged to post their opinion - ascetic, technical - or questions on technique. There is no reason why this dialogue cannot be conducted politely and constructively to the benefit of all.
Some sharing forums are hyperactive, whilst this activity is good maybe it would be better to restrict each member to 1 post in that forum per 24 hr period. This would ensure that some posters are not multi posting in a particular forum on one day. This potentially would mean that with fewer posts per day in a forum each post is likely to receive more attention than is the current position. Likewise under these circumstance, multi posters are likely to be more selective in what images they post and that would go some way to improving the quality of images posted.
I would also suggest limiting the image number per initial post and for OP to keep to that spirit & not add more multiple images in the 2nd/3rd post of that thread.
The OP ability/experience is always going to be a contentious area to define - I would think that just looking at the OP's post count will give a guideline and would suggest that any comments and critique offered bear that in mind. Appreciate that this is not ideal but I don't see any system being definitive. There is no reason at all why any comments or critique cannot be offered in a polite and civil manner. Rude and uncivil remarks will only dissuade people posting - which takes us back to where we are now.
As TP has expanded new posting forums have been added or in some cases, due to activity or desirability, forums have been divided into new or sub forums. On that basis if a particular forum is not overly active it is logical that its requirement is reconsidered.
on looking over the details in the Quick links > my posts section it shows that for a thread to achieve a 10% reply to view rate is good with many not even getting that much - bear in mind that within that 10% it is very likely that the OP has replied to comments posted. In my view that is poor - certainly doesn't encourage peeps to spend time working on an image and posting.
A comment - even 'nice shot' whilst not ideal is better than no comment. A point by many newcomers is that they don't feel that they have the experience/technical knowledge/confidence to post comments on a image. It's very easy to forget our early days of posting comments - when 'nice shot' was a safe and easy comment to make, however if that hurdle was not taken no further comments would have been possible.
As we are well aware photography is always going to be subjective and hence a image is likely to attract differing opinions and people should be encouraged to post their opinion - ascetic, technical - or questions on technique. There is no reason why this dialogue cannot be conducted politely and constructively to the benefit of all.
Some sharing forums are hyperactive, whilst this activity is good maybe it would be better to restrict each member to 1 post in that forum per 24 hr period. This would ensure that some posters are not multi posting in a particular forum on one day. This potentially would mean that with fewer posts per day in a forum each post is likely to receive more attention than is the current position. Likewise under these circumstance, multi posters are likely to be more selective in what images they post and that would go some way to improving the quality of images posted.
I would also suggest limiting the image number per initial post and for OP to keep to that spirit & not add more multiple images in the 2nd/3rd post of that thread.
The OP ability/experience is always going to be a contentious area to define - I would think that just looking at the OP's post count will give a guideline and would suggest that any comments and critique offered bear that in mind. Appreciate that this is not ideal but I don't see any system being definitive. There is no reason at all why any comments or critique cannot be offered in a polite and civil manner. Rude and uncivil remarks will only dissuade people posting - which takes us back to where we are now.
As TP has expanded new posting forums have been added or in some cases, due to activity or desirability, forums have been divided into new or sub forums. On that basis if a particular forum is not overly active it is logical that its requirement is reconsidered.
ladysue
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I dont think that there are any serious problems with this forum that need fixing.I love the forum as it is and hope it doesnt change too much. I think the fact that it's numbers have grown so much shows that it must be doing things right.
I always add "Comments and critique appreciated" to any photos I post. I mean that and I am quite happy with "Nice picture" because I am pleased that somebody liked it. I also really appreciate any critique, even if sometimes it tells me the picture is pretty rubbish. The best responses of course are those that tell me how I could do it better or improve it with some pp.For me the worst scenario is if I dont get any response at all. For this reason I often comment on photos that people have posted where I can see they are not getting any responses.
As I am still quite inexperienced with technical stuff I sometimes post something similar to "Nice pic" although I dont use those words, or try to find something positive about a picture. I try to be more helpful when I can see what else could be done.I think it would be a shame if I could only comment on threads where I can give proper critique because sometimes I just want to say I like a photo even if I dont know why.
People should only post in "photos just for pleasure" if they dont want negative comments.There will always be the odd rude commenter but they can just be ignored by the OP and kept an eye on by the mods as they are at the moment.We have to realise that with such a high number of members there are bound to be some with serious psychological disturbances or communication issues.
I do agree that there should be a limit to the number of pictures in a thread - 6 seems plenty. It could be 4 I think.
I think that asking people to state their experience level at the start of the thread would be helpful but maybe just "beginner" or "experienced" would suffice. I'm sure we would get arguments about some people calling themselves pros.
Thanks to everyone who comments on my pictures and is helping me to improve or just encouraging me.
Sue
I always add "Comments and critique appreciated" to any photos I post. I mean that and I am quite happy with "Nice picture" because I am pleased that somebody liked it. I also really appreciate any critique, even if sometimes it tells me the picture is pretty rubbish. The best responses of course are those that tell me how I could do it better or improve it with some pp.For me the worst scenario is if I dont get any response at all. For this reason I often comment on photos that people have posted where I can see they are not getting any responses.
As I am still quite inexperienced with technical stuff I sometimes post something similar to "Nice pic" although I dont use those words, or try to find something positive about a picture. I try to be more helpful when I can see what else could be done.I think it would be a shame if I could only comment on threads where I can give proper critique because sometimes I just want to say I like a photo even if I dont know why.
People should only post in "photos just for pleasure" if they dont want negative comments.There will always be the odd rude commenter but they can just be ignored by the OP and kept an eye on by the mods as they are at the moment.We have to realise that with such a high number of members there are bound to be some with serious psychological disturbances or communication issues.
I do agree that there should be a limit to the number of pictures in a thread - 6 seems plenty. It could be 4 I think.
I think that asking people to state their experience level at the start of the thread would be helpful but maybe just "beginner" or "experienced" would suffice. I'm sure we would get arguments about some people calling themselves pros.
Thanks to everyone who comments on my pictures and is helping me to improve or just encouraging me.
Sue
CReid
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I agree with the number of pictures per post limit but IMHO for the rest of the suggestions don't fix what ain't broke! For example in birds / macro you'll frequently get posts requesting ID, would these fall foul (fowl??) of the proposed rules 
Don't forget there are a lot of posters who appear to be seeking C&C but then spit the dummy when you give it, hence it's easier to either not post any comments or 'nice shot' :shrug:
And finally... you can't beat a bit of showboating, either by yourself or other posters There are a few posters around here who post stunning images all the time, I know it, they know it and you either don't comment or you're going to get loads of 'nice shot' posts...Frankly do I care??? NO! I come here to see amazing images and TP always delivers
Don't forget there are a lot of posters who appear to be seeking C&C but then spit the dummy when you give it, hence it's easier to either not post any comments or 'nice shot' :shrug:
And finally... you can't beat a bit of showboating, either by yourself or other posters
There are a few posters around here who post stunning images all the time, I know it, they know it and you either don't comment or you're going to get loads of 'nice shot' posts...Frankly do I care??? NO! I come here to see amazing images and TP always delivers 
gingerjon
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How about a minimum word limit on replies?
It's hard to stick to saying "Nice shot" if you have to find another 48 words before your post is accepted.
I'd also go with two shot maximum posts (before/after, which 1 is better etc) with links to the rest of the sets.
And life bans with immediate suspension of privileges (i.e breathing (C) T Pratchett)) for anybody who replies to their own post to get more images on.
It's hard to stick to saying "Nice shot" if you have to find another 48 words before your post is accepted.
I'd also go with two shot maximum posts (before/after, which 1 is better etc) with links to the rest of the sets.
And life bans with immediate suspension of privileges (i.e breathing (C) T Pratchett)) for anybody who replies to their own post to get more images on.
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Ian and I already suggested earlier - and I think it would be a minor tweak that could work really well if the quality of responses is being questioned...
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menthel
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For me, I would not want to see labels. I think it could end up with some of us less experienced bods feeling a little intimidated by our pro colleagues- not that I am saying they are intimidaing as such!
Ideas:
Get rid of in depth- its barely used and we have crit sections, they should be used as such.
Limit the number of photos that the OP puts up. Somewhere between 3 and 6 would be good, if there is a story to tell. I have been guilty of putting a bunch up before and it just doesn't go down well. A limit would also cause us to do more self crit before we post. However, we can't have a limit that will affect people posting edits etc.
Stop the 'nice capture' posts. Every response to a picture should be qualified, good or bad!
When starting a thread a little background should be included, including EXIF data if its not attached to the photo. This will give more info for those critiquing to work with.
If people don't want crit it goes in the for fun section. Simple as.
Open a new section for TP meetups for the photos to be put up in. We can have threads for each meet. Any photos for actual crit from a meet should then go into the appropriate section.
Just my 2 pennies!
Ideas:
Get rid of in depth- its barely used and we have crit sections, they should be used as such.
Limit the number of photos that the OP puts up. Somewhere between 3 and 6 would be good, if there is a story to tell. I have been guilty of putting a bunch up before and it just doesn't go down well. A limit would also cause us to do more self crit before we post. However, we can't have a limit that will affect people posting edits etc.
Stop the 'nice capture' posts. Every response to a picture should be qualified, good or bad!
When starting a thread a little background should be included, including EXIF data if its not attached to the photo. This will give more info for those critiquing to work with.
If people don't want crit it goes in the for fun section. Simple as.
Open a new section for TP meetups for the photos to be put up in. We can have threads for each meet. Any photos for actual crit from a meet should then go into the appropriate section.
Just my 2 pennies!
I like this idea if you limit the minimum number of characters for a comment to say 100 characters then people would have to a least put something. In addition maybe add a like/ dislike button similar to the likes of facebook so that you can say you like it without having to actually post? This would enable those who post pics for the "nice shot" post count to feel warm and fluffy without having meaningless drivel to wade through.
Also agree with limiting to top three pics and again stop the post from be uploaded unless there is, say, 100 characters accompanying the pictures. It must be possible to add a time or number of responses restriction to stop people adding extra posts with more pics to get round this rule too.
Chris
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Dogfish_magnet
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Personally i think the forum is structured OK as it is, If you don’t want crit post in the 'Photos for fun section' and if you want in-depth crit there's already a section for it, where you can post your idea behind the shot, what crit you want etc etc.
Why do you need to be labelled as a beginner intermediate or pro ? if a image has something wrong with it (or right with it) having a label regarding your skill level / classification is not going to change it – it will still have issues.
People need to post honest crit - if a shots not in focus say post that, if the compositions crap - post what’s wrong with it and what you may have done to change it - if its flat, post that - if it’s noisy post that -, but always add what you think could be done to improve the shot and remember something’s are subjective, so your opinion may not be the same as others !.
Posting good comments against a poor image helps no one, they will carry posting crap and never improve.
If someone gets upset with your honest crit - try discussing it with them or if its the its 'straight from the camera....' type reply suggest they post in the 'Photos for fun section' and they only post in the crit section if THEY WANT HONEST CRIT.
And if you see a 'Nice shot' comment and you can see a problem - reply with your observations and suggestions and if people can’t take Constructive Crit then perhaps TP is not the place for them to be posting in the CRIT sections. Personally i don’t have an issue with ‘Nice shot’ comments as long as its posted against a ‘Nice shot’
Why do you need to be labelled as a beginner intermediate or pro ? if a image has something wrong with it (or right with it) having a label regarding your skill level / classification is not going to change it – it will still have issues.
People need to post honest crit - if a shots not in focus say post that, if the compositions crap - post what’s wrong with it and what you may have done to change it - if its flat, post that - if it’s noisy post that -, but always add what you think could be done to improve the shot and remember something’s are subjective, so your opinion may not be the same as others !.
Posting good comments against a poor image helps no one, they will carry posting crap and never improve.
If someone gets upset with your honest crit - try discussing it with them or if its the its 'straight from the camera....' type reply suggest they post in the 'Photos for fun section' and they only post in the crit section if THEY WANT HONEST CRIT.
And if you see a 'Nice shot' comment and you can see a problem - reply with your observations and suggestions and if people can’t take Constructive Crit then perhaps TP is not the place for them to be posting in the CRIT sections. Personally i don’t have an issue with ‘Nice shot’ comments as long as its posted against a ‘Nice shot’
akr
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I'll try and give this some more thought, but there seem to some core issues affecting the quality of the feedback:
1. The number of images posted in an individual post
2. The number of posts (in some sections anyway eg birds) being generated a day
Both the above mean people don't have time to go through and give the critique they want to. For me that's at the core of the issue, you address this and the rest will follow.
Al
1. The number of images posted in an individual post
2. The number of posts (in some sections anyway eg birds) being generated a day
Both the above mean people don't have time to go through and give the critique they want to. For me that's at the core of the issue, you address this and the rest will follow.
Al
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the problem with a minimum amount of characters is that the single smilies wont work, and sometimes a long word senstance isnt required to say thanks or similar, so although that is the blindingly simple, its not likely to work
Dogfish_magnet
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Then all you will get is
Good shot or
Very good shot
Thats a very good shot............ Anything to meet the minimum (or they wont bother posting)
Trying to force people to do something they dont want to do won't work with the results you after,
