Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

[ukaskew]

There are loads of factors which will cause prices to be different in each region, from biggies like exchange rate to storage and distribution costs in each country. Minimum wage is another.

We also have incredibly good consumer rights protection in the UK (significantly better than in the US and I imagine many other countries). As a non-photographic example, the joycon drift issue with the Nintendo Switch...the UK is one of few countries on the planet where you can demand free repairs/replacements for an essentially unlimited period of time. That may be free for the user but the costs need to be covered somehow.

 

[sphexx]

None of us know that the grey suppliers aren't paying all the taxes they are legally required to. It’s all just speculation.

Nobody is suggesting grey suppliers aren’t paying taxes. The importers all say they haven’t paid the tax, as they personallly report here and I believe them.

It used to be warranty and resale was the purported issues but you can buy grey for less with a better warranty with product fixed in the same workshop by the same technicians using OEM parts, download firmware and sell on with no issues. For those who think selling grey is a moral issue about taxes and UK retailers, why is your ire not aimed at the manufacrurers who charge retailers more here for a product and set up the ability for grey to make sales at a difference.

Whataboutery! Because one person does wrong it doesn’t excuse another, pure playground excuses .

 

[Ed Sutton]

I can't see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but it's a point i always make in these discussions.......

If there was genuine competition between the main official equipment retailers in the UK, and it were possible to occasionally get genuine bargains from them, then more people would use them. This is a typical random page from Camera Price Buster -

https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk...Canon-EOS-R6-Camera-with-24-105mm-IS-STM-Lens

Don't tell me there isn't some kind of price fixing going on here.

To a degree the internet has caused prices to level out across retailers rather than collusion. They can no longer deal with customers ignorant of prices outside their local area. Everyone can go on-line and find the lowest retail price, which if a shop doesn't match loses out to an on-line sale elsewhere. If they advertise on-line then they have to be in the same price range as every other internet seller to have a chance of attracting customers.

 

[Bobsyeruncle]

Don't tell me there isn't some kind of price fixing going on here.

I'd say there is....
When I had my hifi business, if I reduced an item on my website the supplier would be on the phone telling me that my account would be on stop until I fixed my "error"....
Totally illegal, but until I upped my price, they wouldn't supply me.

 

[nandbytes]

I can't see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but it's a point i always make in these discussions.......

If there was genuine competition between the main official equipment retailers in the UK, and it were possible to occasionally get genuine bargains from them, then more people would use them. This is a typical random page from Camera Price Buster -

https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk...Canon-EOS-R6-Camera-with-24-105mm-IS-STM-Lens

Don't tell me there isn't some kind of price fixing going on here.

price fixing is illegal as far as I know.
Also that page isn't a proof of price fixing tbh. Cameras selling at RRP isn't quite price fixing is it?

Regardless if you have a good relationship with a camera store they will and do give you discounts and they do take care of you here.
I got the 14GM and 35GM from a UK store at basically grey prices on release/pre-order.
But building relationships with a shop is probably a "foreign" concept for grey importers
having said that I think Panamoz will also give you nicer discounts if you shop with them a lot.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Are you not simply describing price fixing by the distributor.

Price fixing, in legal terms, is where a group agrees to buy or sell at a given price. It doesn't apply to a single seller because, in an open market, each seller sets their offer price and customers accept or don't.

None of us know that the grey suppliers aren't paying all the taxes they are legally required to.

Yes. We agreed (or not) on that several posts ago.

For those who think selling grey is a moral issue about taxes and UK retailers, why is your ire not aimed at the manufacrurers who charge retailers more here for a product and set up the ability for grey to make sales at a difference.

The discussion has been more about whether grey importers are acting legally or not. As stated before, it's entirely possible to get better prices legitimately in different countries. The moral question is entirely about knowing which grey importers are doing this and paying the lower taxes and duties on their imports and which are not, creating a situation where an unlucky customer could receive correspondence or even a visit from an enforcement officer demanding unpaid duty and tax, with or without a penalty.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

None of us know that the grey suppliers aren't paying all the taxes they are legally required to. It’s all just speculation. It used to be warranty and resale was the purported issues but you can buy grey for less with a better warranty with product fixed in the same workshop by the same technicians using OEM parts, download firmware and sell on with no issues. For those who think selling grey is a moral issue about taxes and UK retailers, why is your ire not aimed at the manufacrurers who charge retailers more here for a product and set up the ability for grey to make sales at a difference.

I mean, it's pretty obvious when the customs declaration undervalues the camera. But sure, we don't know they're mis declaring the value and then somehow paying the correct amount of VAT and duty another way...

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

I think in the absence of any VAT receipts from any of these companies. the burden of proof is on those who imagine the tax has been paid. And, as above, it's the importer who is ultimately liable (usually the purchaser, if dealing with a company that is doing business from overseas).

A *valid* VAT receipt too.

There's one grey supplier that supplies VAT receipts, but the VAT NO is for another related company, and not for the actual company you've just bought from. So it's not actually valid, and IMO, is only supplied to give the illusion that the VAT has been paid.

That said, the service from Panamoz is far beyond anything anyone in the UK seems to offer. So if people want that service and the moral high ground, buy it and declare it when it arrives.

Or, just accept it's cheaper because you're dodging VAT. Don't get why people seem so keen to pretend there's nothing shady about it.

 

[jerry12953]

price fixing is illegal as far as I know.
Also that page isn't a proof of price fixing tbh. Cameras selling at RRP isn't quite price fixing is it?

Regardless if you have a good relationship with a camera store they will and do give you discounts and they do take care of you here.
I got the 14GM and 35GM from a UK store at basically grey prices on release/pre-order.
But building relationships with a shop is probably a "foreign" concept for grey importers
having said that I think Panamoz will also give you nicer discounts if you shop with them a lot.

Yes, price fixing is illegal. But I did say


"some kind of price fixing"

I don't think any of us know how it works but in reality actual prices for the same item are almost identical across a wide variety of dealers. No wonder people buy grey!

 

[nandbytes]

Yes, price fixing is illegal. But I did say


"some kind of price fixing"

I don't think any of us know how it works but in reality actual prices for the same item are almost identical across a wide variety of dealers. No wonder people buy grey!

I don't see why they wouldn't be the same tbh. Sometime certain places do sell things a bit cheaper like £20-50 cheaper sometimes but that's about it.
regardless of what it two wrongs don't make a right.
Its incredible the lengths people go to justify buying grey, no matter what its still illegal.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

Yes, price fixing is illegal. But I did say


"some kind of price fixing"

I don't think any of us know how it works but in reality actual prices for the same item are almost identical across a wide variety of dealers. No wonder people buy grey!

Beacuase its the RRP and because the retailer margins are so slim, they really have little choice - its almost certainly not a case of the retailers grouping together and 'fixing' prices, but much more likely to be as a result of Manufacturer RRP and retailer margins, and if you checked Canon/Sony/Olympus/Nikon etc websites the price would be the same as well, the reality is that the manufacturer sites which 'could' sacrifice the retailer margin also sell at the same price, which for once actually supports their retailers

 

[Sky]

Its incredible the lengths people go to justify buying grey, no matter what its still illegal.

No it's not - you really need to get your facts right. Do some research.

Avoiding paying VAT and Customs duty is illegal, but as I've repeatedly said on this forum; that's a different matter entirely. :banghead:

 

[nandbytes]

No it's not - you really need to get your facts right. Do some research.

Avoiding paying VAT and Customs duty is illegal, but as I've repeatedly said on this forum; that's a different matter entirely. :banghead:

I have done and most (if not all) people buying grey are evading (not avoiding) tax and import duty which is illegal
You are trying pull me out on a technicality (just as I did to you with tax evasion vs. avoidance), but people know exactly what I was referring to and I know what you were referring to.

 

[Sky]

 

[Retune]

Not really, if they bought something on holiday they would have paid the regular price for the country they had been in and in recompense, a foreign tourist may well have bought something in this country and paid a UK price so maintaining the status quo. However, always retain the receipt showing you have paid duty in the foreign country or UK customs will have something to say about it, or alternatively, buy it duty free and declare it on your return. Of course you could always beat it up a bit and say you took it out with you, this is especially true with camera equipment.

The biggest charge is usually VAT rather than duty. HMRC won't care about any foreign sales tax you may already have paid; if you haven't shopped tax-free or claimed a sales tax refund they'll be happy to charge you again when you are checked on arrival in the UK or declare the goods. UK import VAT is payable on the total value if what you bring in is worth more than £390. Duty may also be payable over that threshold, but the rules are a bit more complicated.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

No it's not - you really need to get your facts right. Do some research.

Avoiding paying VAT and Customs duty is illegal, but as I've repeatedly said on this forum; that's a different matter entirely. :banghead:

cameras do not attract customs duty anyway..

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

None of us know exactly what arrangements Grey importers Make with HMRC so this is all a fruitless discussion.
where they breaking any laws they would certainly be prosecuted as they are a very significant part of UK camera sales.

If HMRC thought that a grey importer's customers were were being systematically aided in avoiding any due duty or vat, they would put a stop to it.
However grey importing only means imports by other than by the appointed wholesaler in the country concerned. it is an absolutely legitimate import route.
Grey importers are subject to the same regulations as the appointed ones are.
What is clear it that the base import cost to the Grey and the official importer is not the same, so neither is the vat element, which is based on selling price.

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

None of us know exactly what arrangements Grey importers Make with HMRC so this is all a fruitless discussion.
where they breaking any laws they would certainly be prosecuted as they are a very significant part of UK camera sales.

If HMRC thought that a grey importer's customers were were being systematically aided in avoiding any due duty or vat, they would put a stop to it.
However grey importing only means imports by other than by the appointed wholesaler in the country concerned. it is an absolutely legitimate import route.
Grey importers are subject to the same regulations as the appointed ones are.
What is clear it that the base import cost to the Grey and the official importer is not the same, so neither is the vat element, which is based on selling price.

How can they put a stop to it when they don't operate from the UK, and it's the duty of the importer (the photographer in this case) to ensure it's correctly declared?

I've had shipments from grey importers, the value on the outside of the box has always been quoted as less than the amount that would attract VAT, regardless of the value of the item inside the box. That's not an agreement with HMRC.

 

[nandbytes]

None of us know exactly what arrangements Grey importers Make with HMRC so this is all a fruitless discussion.
where they breaking any laws they would certainly be prosecuted as they are a very significant part of UK camera sales.

If HMRC thought that a grey importer's customers were were being systematically aided in avoiding any due duty or vat, they would put a stop to it.
However grey importing only means imports by other than by the appointed wholesaler in the country concerned. it is an absolutely legitimate import route.
Grey importers are subject to the same regulations as the appointed ones are.
What is clear it that the base import cost to the Grey and the official importer is not the same, so neither is the vat element, which is based on selling price.

declaring a £5.3K camera as a £20 toys gift is far from legitimate.

How would you prosecute them? on what basis? they aren't breaking the law and not under UK jurisdiction. they are simply importing on our behalf, we are ones liable to declare and pay the rightful amounts due to HMRC.

I don't think they have any arrangement to speak of with HMRC, if they did they wouldn't so blatantly under valuing the goods they are posting.
And on the off chance they do get caught all they do is ask the buyer to pay the import charges and they repay the buyer. Clearly not a legal official arrangement with HMRC.

 

[sphexx]

Yes, price fixing is illegal. But I did say


"some kind of price fixing"

I don't think any of us know how it works but in reality actual prices for the same item are almost identical across a wide variety of dealers. No wonder people buy grey!

Yes. I think there are various factors drawing the prices together.

• Using the wholesalers RRP is an easy guide to what to sell it for.
• Its easy for customers to scan the web and see what others are selling for which you couldn’t easily do in days of sail.
• Some firms offer price matching and “never knowingly undersold”.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

How can they put a stop to it when they don't operate from the UK, and it's the duty of the importer (the photographer in this case) to ensure it's correctly declared?

I've had shipments from grey importers, the value on the outside of the box has always been quoted as less than the amount that would attract VAT, regardless of the value of the item inside the box. That's not an agreement with HMRC.

Of course they can put a stop to it. We have mutual trade agreements with Hong Kong. and reciprocal legal agreements. however It is not difficult to stop any company trading with your country. we have banned Huawei trading specific products in the UK. and they are based in China.
The few Items that I have bought from Grey traders have always put their correct value on the Export label.

I have bought a few items directly from China through AliXpress, these are individual sellers and usually price in Dollars that match the prices they sell on the American market, but not necessarily the same as in the UK. it is sometimes less and sometimes more.

 

[sphexx]

None of us know exactly what arrangements Grey importers Make with HMRC so this is all a fruitless discussion.

Well we do from various descriptions of people’s experience with under-declaring value, paying VAT when caught and from what they write in their T&Cs on their websites.

where they breaking any laws they would certainly be prosecuted as they are a very significant part of UK camera sales.

If HMRC thought that a grey importer's customers were were being systematically aided in avoiding any due duty or vat, they would put a stop to it.

Not easy.

However grey importing only means imports by other than by the appointed wholesaler in the country concerned. it is an absolutely legitimate import route.

That at least is true.

Grey importers are subject to the same regulations as the appointed ones are.

Aside from the fact you persist in calling them “importers”, they are subject to the Basic Law:

Hong Kong Basic Law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and not subject to any U.K. regs.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

declaring a £5.3K camera as a £20 toys gift is far from legitimate.

How would you prosecute them? on what basis? they aren't breaking the law and not under UK jurisdiction. they are simply importing on our behalf, we are ones liable to declare and pay the rightful amounts due to HMRC.

I don't think they have any arrangement to speak of with HMRC, if they did they wouldn't so blatantly under valuing the goods they are posting.
And on the off chance they do get caught all they do is ask the buyer to pay the import charges and they repay the buyer. Clearly not a legal official arrangement with HMRC.

HMRC do open and check parcels entering the country. I have never heard of any company marking a product of £5.3K as £20. it would be subject to immediate confiscation and a large fine.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Well we do from various descriptions of people’s experience with under-declaring value, paying VAT when caught and from what they write in their T&Cs on their websites.



Not easy.


That at least is true.



Aside from the fact you persist in calling them “importers”, they are subject to the Basic Law:

Hong Kong Basic Law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and not subject to any U.K. regs.

Trade agreements are framed to comply with both the British and Hong Kong laws and regulations.
All trade between the two countries must comply with those laws. and regulations. and are mutually enforceable.
That is why we have trade agreements

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

HMRC do open and check parcels entering the country. I have never heard of any company marking a product of £5.3K as £20. it would be subject to immediate confiscation and a large fine.

They don't open every package. If they do, you're given a bill for the correct amount of VAT, but they rely on the fact that the packages are only spot checked.

 

[ukaskew]

HMRC do open and check parcels entering the country. I have never heard of any company marking a product of £5.3K as £20. it would be subject to immediate confiscation and a large fine.

Certainly not quite £5k but when I bought camera kit grey regularly once upon a time and the goods arrived directly from HK, it was always the case that the value of the parcel was significantly understated to bring it below any chargeable threshold.

They aren't checking every single parcel on every plane, far from it.

Some of them seem to have a workaround of getting the items into the UK first and forwarding them on now, but given that pricing still massively undercuts UK prices I don't think it would be entirely without merit to assume that they are still finding a way to avoid the appropriate duties.

 

[nandbytes]

HMRC do open and check parcels entering the country. I have never heard of any company marking a product of £5.3K as £20. it would be subject to immediate confiscation and a large fine.

I have proof of this lol (there's many others on this forum who have pointed it out too)
They don't check every parcel. The grey importer basically play the numbers game. They just pay the tax, fine and fees for the odd ones that get caught, the rest go through as £20 toys and basically the buyer i.e. the importer has successfully smuggled and evaded paying tax hence get the goods cheaper than people acting within the law.

 

[robinsslee]

If I am right, it is the carriers responsibility to collect the VAT on the goods prior delivered to you, not HMRC.

 

[sphexx]

If I am right, it is the carriers responsibility to collect the VAT on the goods prior delivered to you, not HMRC.

How would the carrier know what to charge?

 

[Phil V]

They don't open every package. If they do, you're given a bill for the correct amount of VAT, but they rely on the fact that the packages are only spot checked.

This
But just to add, there’s not a lot of ‘randomness’ to the checking, they work on a mix of ‘intelligence’ and data driven targeting.

What this business model has in its favour is where goods are entering the U.K. direct to buyers patterns aren’t an obvious spot. I fully expect HMRC to clock onto this business eventually, but for now it’s clearly not seen as a priority.

it might look like a big deal to a bunch of photographers (for whom it’s major purchases) but up against illegal and dangerous food and drink, lucrative cigarettes and alcohol, paedophile sex toys and a myriad other types of contraband, you soon come to see how it’s not a priority.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

They aren't checking every single parcel on every plane, far from it.

For many years, all parcels coming through ports and airports have been passed through X-ray scanners and other checks. This has been illustrated on several television programmes.

Several methods of checking contents beyond this are also used but for obvious reasons, HMRC are unwilling to discuss those. However, an explanation of the civil penalty system is given here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-penalties-for-contraventions-of-customs-law-customs-notice-301

The whole issue of grey imports has been covered ad nauseum in the photographic press and around the web. There's a fairly sensible discussion here: https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/blog/?p=517

 

[robinsslee]

How would the carrier know what to charge?

Declared value or by weight.

 

[ukaskew]

The whole issue of grey imports has been covered ad nauseum in the photographic press and around the web. There's a fairly sensible discussion here: https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/blog/?p=517

It all comes back to the same grey area (bad pun!) though. Either...

a) it's sent directly from HK and you are the personal importer and therefore liable for any duties owed...although funnily enough 99% of the time that is never an issue because *reasons*

b) The company is importing the goods into the UK and then forwarding them on to you, in which case you should be able to obtain a VAT receipt, but you basically never can because *reasons*

'Traditional' grey importing would see a company legitimately shipping stock into the UK and selling it on. Apart from maybe HDEW in some cases, that doesn't seem to happen at all, why might that be? Could it be because once the appropriate duties are added, it's barely cheaper than official UK stock? Even if they are sending it from the UK eventually, in pretty much all cases you're still placing an order for an item which is physically in another country, they are essentially just forwarding agents when it arrives here.

If I order a bunch of t-shirts for £70 from the US I get walloped by a hefty fee, yet that never happens with £700 camera gear coming from Asia. Why is it?!

 

[Deleted sulking member 63079]

It all comes back to the same grey area (bad pun!) though. Either...

a) it's sent directly from HK and you are the personal importer and therefore liable for any duties owed...although funnily enough 99% of the time that is never an issue because *reasons*

b) The company is importing the goods into the UK and then forwarding them on to you, in which case you should be able to obtain a VAT receipt, but you basically never can because *reasons*

'Traditional' grey importing would see a company legitimately shipping stock into the UK and selling it on. Apart from maybe HDEW in some cases, that doesn't seem to happen at all, why might that be? Could it be because once the appropriate duties are added, it's barely cheaper than official UK stock? Even if they are sending it from the UK eventually, in pretty much all cases you're still placing an order for an item which is physically in another country, they are essentially just forwarding agents when it arrives here.

If I order a bunch of t-shirts for £70 from the US I get walloped by a hefty fee, yet that never happens with £700 camera gear coming from Asia. Why is it?!

And unless things have changed, it's HDEW that give you a VAT receipt that doesn't actually meet the requirements for a valid VAT receipt.

 

[MartynK]

I'm personally thinking Andorra - very very low taxes and a great place to be.

Although a Cabin in Montana - with a rifle sounds awfully appealing also.

It does, but I have a friend in Washington (state) and she says the Montana winters are brutal. I don't do cold weather very well, so somewhere a bit further south maybe ...

 

[Phil V]

For many years, all parcels coming through ports and airports have been passed through X-ray scanners and other checks. This has been illustrated on several television programmes.

Several methods of checking contents beyond this are also used but for obvious reasons, HMRC are unwilling to discuss those. However, an explanation of the civil penalty system is given here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/civil-penalties-for-contraventions-of-customs-law-customs-notice-301

The whole issue of grey imports has been covered ad nauseum in the photographic press and around the web. There's a fairly sensible discussion here: https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk/blog/?p=517

HMRC and indeed the frontline home office staff have nowhere near enough staff to check every package entering the country.
Frankly this is one of the most absurd posts I’ve read on the subject.

486 million tonnes of goods entered the U.K. last year.

You can work out how many staff would be required to examine all of that, or I could tell you that I know a data analyst within HMRC who’s job is to analyse data from manifests and other sources to target areas of interest.

 

[sphexx]

Declared value or by weight.

Exactly .

 

[sphexx]

What this business model has in its favour is where goods are entering the U.K. direct to buyers

Though I think there are reports of some being posted in U.K. giving the impression they are coming in bulk and being re-posted.

HDEW which has particularly clear descriptions and is a U.K. business says you can collect the goods from their shop but maybe that would be a specific arrangement for your parcel.

 

[HoppyUK]

I have proof of this lol (there's many others on this forum who have pointed it out too)
They don't check every parcel. The grey importer basically play the numbers game. They just pay the tax, fine and fees for the odd ones that get caught, the rest go through as £20 toys and basically the buyer i.e. the importer has successfully smuggled and evaded paying tax hence get the goods cheaper than people acting within the law.

That's it, in a nutshell. It's been going on for decades, HMRC knows all about it, parliament has been lobbied by official UK distributors, and still it goes on unchecked.

Here's why - the sheer scale of the problem, across all markets, is truly massive. It's impossible to control and just not a priority in the great scheme of things. It would also cause huge disruption for all legitimately imported goods and be extremely unpopular.

Just look at this container ship, and there are dozens of them working 24/7.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/CSCL_Globe_arriving_at_Felixstowe%2C_United_Kingdom.jpg

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

They don't open every package. If they do, you're given a bill for the correct amount of VAT, but they rely on the fact that the packages are only spot checked.

how do you know that?