Grey Imports - What are our current feeling?

nandbytes said:
yeah I'll try that in court next time - "I am only building the economy and making sure we don't drop into another recession after this pandemic lockdown"
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I am well impressed by the number of excuses tax dodgers and other criminals come out with for their antisocial behaviour. If only that imagination could be harnessed to make life better for our fellow citizens who are poor because they're honest...
:tumbleweed:
 
nandbytes said:
UK also take p*** by providing everyone with good roads, NHS and social care and rest of the things taxes pay for

And let's forget about p*** take that is minimal wages, decent maternal/paternal laws and so on.
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We're 37th in World road quality and the minimum wage is not necessarily a living wage.
 
SFTPhotography said:
On the topic of currency - is this another factor allowing the usual suspects to price so low. Do they carry more stock and get a better deal from the supplier-does their currency have more strength against the yen than ours to get these great prices?
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They might be doing some of that. I have wondered if MPB gets some advantage that way since it has branches in, I think, EU USA & U.K.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I am well impressed by the number of excuses tax dodgers and other criminals come out with for their antisocial behaviour. If only that imagination could be harnessed to make life better for our fellow citizens who are poor because they're honest...
:tumbleweed:
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It’s the rich what gets the pleasure and the poor what gets the blame. You‘ll find them standing on the bridge at midnight:

View: https://youtu.be/mKhcQmIiJys


Aint’it all a bleedin’ shame?
 
PetethePrimate said:
We're 37th in World road quality and the minimum wage is not necessarily a living wage.
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Not sure what you are trying to say...
We should pay less tax and make things even worst then?
Places should pay their employees fair living wage but keep cost on customers down?

Should we use the tax money more effectively? - definitely yes but that's a different discussion really vs. tax evasion.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
The government robs us every day with foreign aid. It is clear we give it too much of our money.
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That's rather short sighted view IMO

I hope this helps explain why it necessary for everyone to prosper
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ&ab_channel=Kurzgesagt%E2%80%93InaNutshell


Besides foreign aid UK gives is a small amount and a very small proportion of its budget, it hardly robbing anyone and definitely not a waste.
If you still really want to stop foreign aid the answer isn't evading taxes, its voting for people who will represent your ant-foreign-aid sentiments in the parliament.
 
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SFTPhotography said:
There's still a generation or "type" that doesn't like doing online business. They'll bank in branch or "over the phone" and never do online. My folks for instance.

In saying that I bought my very first camera in John Lewis. They were excellent and chucked in a free bag.

Once I "knew what I was doing" I just went online.

FWIW I've bought 2 Pentax 645zs new - which is one of the more expensive cameras on this thread (not the most though), in the UK - namely because the price was right and grey importers didn't have them and all my tripods and bags I've bought in the UK - usually with a big discount off RRP.
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I'm probably one but it becomes difficult when what I want isn't available in the nearest town. Do I drive 45 miles to Newcastle to find anything from some mundane household thing to a camera or lens or buy it on line. As I have next to no free time I buy on line. I don't like it but it's what I probably have to do.
 
nandbytes said:
That's rather short sighted view IMO

I hope this helps explain why it necessary for everyone to prosper
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvskMHn0sqQ&ab_channel=Kurzgesagt%E2%80%93InaNutshell


Besides foreign aid UK gives is a small amount and a very small proportion of its budget, it hardly robbing anyone and definitely not a waste.
If you still really want to stop foreign aid the answer isn't evading taxes, its voting for people who will represent your ant-foreign-aid sentiments in the parliament.
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I like it. Though I think it might take into account the recent ‘free movement of money’ which is resulting in bigger pie slices for some and smaller for others. I read the other day that ‘workers’ wages in the US are the same as 40 years ago :(,

Plus of course that economies are getting bigger but The Earth is in danger of shrinking :(l
 
sphexx said:
I like it. Though I think it might take into account the recent ‘free movement of money’ which is resulting in bigger pie slices for some and smaller for others. I read the other day that ‘workers’ wages in the US are the same as 40 years ago :(,

Plus of course that economies are getting bigger but The Earth is in danger of shrinking :(l
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Yes indeed that video is very idealistic and real world hardly works like that or that well.
But the ideology is good and something good to aspire for.
 
Retune said:
Of course there are other people with similar views, but they tend either to be officially resident in the Cayman Islands for tax purposes, or holed up in cabins in Montana with assault rifles.
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I was going to make a similar point. I get tired of people who say “it’s my money and the government has no right to it”. I should like to offer them somewhere to live that has no taxes whatsoever* and no money coming in from outside and let them get on with it.

*does such a place exist though?
 
sphexx said:
I was going to make a similar point. I get tired of people who say “it’s my money and the government has no right to it”. I should like to offer them somewhere to live that has no taxes whatsoever* and no money coming in from outside and let them get on with it.

*does such a place exist though?
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yes I believe such places exist. I don't know the full details as I was mostly only a child at the time..... my dad used to work in middle-east countries. He used say the Islamic countries don't have tax because its against their religion. So his income and all purchases etc were untaxed. I did ask him how they were able to afford to keep the country running and provide benefits for all their citizens and the answer I got was basically by selling oil to rest of the world.

Personally those countries don't interest me a huge lot and I find a lot of their laws and practices really questionable and against what I believe in, you are welcome to do your research on them if you wish.
 
nandbytes said:
yes I believe such places exist. I don't know the full details as I was mostly only a child at the time..... my dad used to work in middle-east countries. He used say the Islamic countries don't have tax because its against their religion. So his income and all purchases etc were untaxed. I did ask him how they were able to afford to keep the country running and provide benefits for all their citizens and the answer I got was basically by selling oil to rest of the world.

Personally those countries don't interest me a huge lot and I find a lot of their laws and practices really questionable and against what I believe in, you are welcome to do your research on them if you wish.
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Yes, but meant a self contained economy :(. However it’s not really a practical suggestion, just scratching around for ideas that would get through to people like that but it’s a lost cause really :( because it messes with what they perceive as their identity.
 
sphexx said:
The firms you call “grey importers” are not importers but suppliers and do not break any of our laws because they are not subject to them :(.
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The entire international trade system only works because of legally empowered rules. Any company breaking those rules and agreements will find themselves prosecuted in one country or the other or both?
. You have yet to show any rules or laws have been broken.

Try supplying drugs to another country, and you would find yourself prosecuted soon enough. There is no chance that you would get away with saying you are only the supplier not the importer, the law does not work that way anywhere.
 
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sphexx said:
I was going to make a similar point. I get tired of people who say “it’s my money and the government has no right to it”. I should like to offer them somewhere to live that has no taxes whatsoever* and no money coming in from outside and let them get on with it.

*does such a place exist though?
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I'm personally thinking Andorra - very very low taxes and a great place to be.

Although a Cabin in Montana - with a rifle sounds awfully appealing also.
 
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Terrywoodenpic said:
You have yet to show any rules or laws have been broken.
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I think in the absence of any VAT receipts from any of these companies. the burden of proof is on those who imagine the tax has been paid. And, as above, it's the importer who is ultimately liable (usually the purchaser, if dealing with a company that is doing business from overseas).
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
The entire international trade system only works because of legally empowered rules. Any company breaking those rules and agreements will find themselves prosecuted in one country or the other or both?
. You have yet to show any rules or laws have been broken.
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But, but, I said the suppliers are not breaking our laws. It’s the importer (you, the end customer) who may be breaking our laws if you dint pay the taxes,
Terrywoodenpic said:
Try supplying drugs to another country, and you would find yourself prosecuted soon enough. There is no chance that you would get away with saying you are only the supplier not the importer, the law does not work that way anywhere.
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These cameras, apart possibly from Canons :) , are not illegal or banned products!
 
SFTPhotography said:
I'm personally thinking Andorra - very very low taxes and a great place to be.

Although a Cabin in Montana - with a rifle sounds awfully appealing also.
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Another tax haven, so no doesn’t qualify being parasitic upon the rest of humanity. Tourism ditto.
 
Retune said:
I think in the absence of any VAT receipts from any of these companies. the burden of proof is on those who imagine the tax has been paid. And, as above, it's the importer who is ultimately liable (usually the purchaser, if dealing with a company that is doing business from overseas).
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As far as I can tell there are three interested parties involved in these tranactions.
The seller, the buyer and HMRC. I have no evidence that any of these are in any way concerned about their legitimacy.
What is your interest in this?
 
Retune said:
I think in the absence of any VAT receipts from any of these companies. the burden of proof is on those who imagine the tax has been paid. And, as above, it's the importer who is ultimately liable (usually the purchaser, if dealing with a company that is doing business from overseas).
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It would be an interesting exercise to import (ie purchase in the usual way) one of these cameras and inform the Revenue that you have done so. They would probably charge you the taxes (no penalty because you’ve declared it). You then tell Panamoz or whoever that you’ve been charged and they reimburse you, as by all accounts they do. You end up with an entirely legal duty paid camera at no extra cost to you. Once it got around it would kill the business :).

The only tricky thing I can see is that whichever of the Tongs have an interest in Panamoz probably has a man in HMRC and they may feel aggrieved which can only end badly … allegedly.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
As far as I can tell there are three interested parties involved in these tranactions.
The seller, the buyer and HMRC. I have no evidence that any of these are in any way concerned about their legitimacy.
What is your interest in this?
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A tax payer?
 
I’ve not gone through all the posts so forgive me if this has been asked already but regarding the morality of grey imports I wonder how many people would declare a camera purchase when they got home if they’d bought one on holiday etc? In my mind it’s pretty much the same thing.
 
I
Nod said:
10 years ago, you could have visited most reasonably sized towns and found at least one proper camera shop. People visiting the shops, demanding to be allowed to play with whatever kit they were thinking of buying then going online (maybe to one of the grey suppliers) has killed most of them off.
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I have seen this happen (I expect). I was in City Music in Truro looking at sheet music and a guy came in and had the shop assistant show him all sorts of ukuleles, He tried them al out then said 'Hmm, I'll have to think about it" and promptly left the shop after half an hour of wasting the assistant's time. If that guy didn't then go and buy it on line but actually came back to the shop then my faith in humanity in restored, from the guy's attitude and demeanour, it is not going to be restored imminently.

Further to this, I went to Exeter because I wanted to buy my first guitar. I explained this to the shop assistant and he brought me out a few instruments. I told him I didn't really play at the moment and could he run off a tune on each guitar so I could hear the difference, which he did. In the end, I chose a second-hand guitar (not that you'd know it was) and while he was doing the receipt and paperwork I told him how much I hated people going to shops and then buying on line and he concurred as it was doing him no good at all. The guitar was already a good price and after our conversation he knocked another fifty quid off the price. When I got home and looked up the price of this particular make of guitar I realised I had bought an eight hundred pound instrument in pristine condition for five hundred and thirty pounds -- and it had been set up by the stores luthier too.

I will still buy things on line but I will never ever waste a shop keepers time before I do it, it's a reprehensible act. If one wants to know what something is like before one buys on line there are a million Youtube videos to learn from, please don't waste a shopkeeper's time when he/she could spend it on proper customers.
 
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I can't see this mentioned elsewhere in the thread, but it's a point i always make in these discussions.......

If there was genuine competition between the main official equipment retailers in the UK, and it were possible to occasionally get genuine bargains from them, then more people would use them. This is a typical random page from Camera Price Buster -

https://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk...Canon-EOS-R6-Camera-with-24-105mm-IS-STM-Lens

Don't tell me there isn't some kind of price fixing going on here.
 
snerkler said:
I’ve not gone through all the posts so forgive me if this has been asked already but regarding the morality of grey imports I wonder how many people would declare a camera purchase when they got home if they’d bought one on holiday etc? In my mind it’s pretty much the same thing.
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Not really, if they bought something on holiday they would have paid the regular price for the country they had been in and in recompense, a foreign tourist may well have bought something in this country and paid a UK price so maintaining the status quo. However, always retain the receipt showing you have paid duty in the foreign country or UK customs will have something to say about it, or alternatively, buy it duty free and declare it on your return. Of course you could always beat it up a bit and say you took it out with you, this is especially true with camera equipment.
 
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snerkler said:
I’ve not gone through all the posts so forgive me if this has been asked already but regarding the morality of grey imports I wonder how many people would declare a camera purchase when they got home if they’d bought one on holiday etc? In my mind it’s pretty much the same thing.
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It is.
 
jerry12953 said:
Don't tell me there isn't some kind of price fixing going on here.
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I doubt there is, in the sense of a cartel or other illegal agreement.

The UK market is intensely competitive and online retailing makes it simple for retailers to track their competitors. It's almost certain that they all source major brands from the same distributor and that none sell enough stock to be able to force the distributor to give additional discount. Inevitably, they're all setting their prices for the minimum profit they can afford to make and thus they will all end up selling at very similar if not identical prices.

It's basic classical economics theory in action: the absence of differentiation in their offers forces their prices to the minimum practical price.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I doubt there is, in the sense of a cartel or other illegal agreement.

The UK market is intensely competitive and online retailing makes it simple for retailers to track their competitors. It's almost certain that they all source major brands from the same distributor and that none sell enough stock to be able to force the distributor to give additional discount. Inevitably, they're all setting their prices for the minimum profit they can afford to make and thus they will all end up selling at very similar if not identical prices.

It's basic classical economics theory in action: the absence of differentiation in their offers forces their prices to the minimum practical price.
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Are you not simply describing price fixing by the distributor. If the distributor sells the same product elsewhere in the world at significantly different levels despite being manufactured at the same time in the same place and at the same cost then they are fixing the price. The retailers sourcing through that distribution mechanism only really have their own margin to play with.

i get that duty and other taxes may change a selling point but fundamentally the distributor is fixing regional pricing.
Grey products are simply sourcing from a retailer who does not buy from the local region distributor but from one where the cost is less.

The big manufacturers take full advantage of a global marketplace when looking at the costs of production but are less than happy about a global marketplace when it comes to sales. They differentiate their own sales pricing by artificial product differences between regions when the product costs the same to make and distribute.

None of us know that the grey suppliers aren't paying all the taxes they are legally required to. It’s all just speculation. It used to be warranty and resale was the purported issues but you can buy grey for less with a better warranty with product fixed in the same workshop by the same technicians using OEM parts, download firmware and sell on with no issues. For those who think selling grey is a moral issue about taxes and UK retailers, why is your ire not aimed at the manufacrurers who charge retailers more here for a product and set up the ability for grey to make sales at a difference.
 
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