Four photographers arrested under section 41

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jamesoliverstone said:
I have had to put up with racism and bullying all my life because of the colour of my skin, and this was happening before any of these events took place. I grew up as the only black child in the village and town where I spent my childhood with people pre judging me based on the colour of my skin. Even though I am British with a very British accent, that didn't matter.

People can use whatever facts they like to justify their actions, but judging a person based on their skin colour or ethnicity is racist.

Even after the atrocities mentioned above, that gives you no right to suspect me of anything without evidence just because I might look like some dodgy black dude with a camera.
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Well said. "Facts" are very easy to work to any view point. EG
How many black people are in the KKK? therefore all white people could possible be morons dressed in bed sheets....
or Hitler was white, therefore all whites must be mass murdering ****wits....
How many black people were involved in the burning of Quran in the states a few months back? all whites must be intollerent racist pyromaniacs.

Look back in history and you will find no race has a nice past towards others....guess you can either go around trusting no one and being paranoid 24/7 or learn that there are just some deluded people out there who wish to harm others.
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
I still think they were quite possibly just some mates on a trip out, but the arrest and then moving of them suggests the rozzers had some strong suspicions
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And their very quick release strongly suggests that those strong suspicions were based on zero actual evidence.
 
hollis_f said:
And their very quick release strongly suggests that those strong suspicions were based on zero actual evidence.
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Wasnt that quick though was it? I have lost track of the timings, but it was 24hrs plus wasnt it?
 
Jimmy_Lemon said:
Just playing devils advocate.....does anyone know how long they can hold people without charge these days, for suspected terrorist charges? maybe they had to release them as they couldn't prove anything.

I still think they were quite possibly just some mates on a trip out, but the arrest and then moving of them suggests the rozzers had some strong suspicions, it wasn't just keeping them overnight as they couldnt processes them quick enough.
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There is a guy who has been held in the UK since 2004 without trial or charge (because the Americans told us to as they want to extradite him). He has also accused the police of assaulting him when he was arrested and mocking his religion (being brutally forced into a praying position and asked 'where is your god now?'). They found blood in his urine and the middle of both ears four days later from the beating.

Personally I think when you resort to abandoning supposedly dearly held democratic principles such as the right to a fair trial, and people's right not to be victimised due to the colour of their skin, then the terrorists have won.
 
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Lets do this the other way Russ..

How many people were responsible for 9/11?

Nineteen directly. Allowing for those involved in planning and logistics, maybe 100.


How many people were responsible for 7/7?

Four directly. Allowing for those involved in planning and logistics, maybe 50.


How many people were responsible for the Mumbai masacre?

Ten directly. Allowing for those involved in planning and logistics, maybe 100.


How many people were responsible for the Bali bombing?

Probably ten in 2002, three in 2005. Allowing for those involved in planning and logistics, maybe 100.



That's a vanishingly small minority of the estimated 1.3-1.6 billion muslims in the world.

You can try and justify your racism, but it' still racism. Alienating people because you don't like the look of them is not going to improve anything.
 
The regular drinkers in my local are a case in point. They have an equal hatred and (bordering on violent) racist attitude towards most "foreigners".

I mean why use common sense, the truth or an open mind, when they can fuel their hatred from "the facts" as published in the sun newspaper.

I pride myself by not judging others on face value. I could care less whether you were White, black or green. If you are a nice person we will get along, if you are an idiot... Well youre an idiot ;)

Unfortunately, the people mentioned above at the local boozer can vote... Worrying really.
 
jamesoliverstone said:
I pride myself by not judging others on face value. I could care less whether you were White, black or green. If you are a nice person we will get along, if you are an idiot... Well youre an idiot ;)
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Likewise, if your an azzhole, it don`t matter what colour or religeon you are,your still an azzhole. If your ok, then your ok no matter colour or religeon.

jamesoliverstone said:
Unfortunately, the people mentioned above at the local boozer can vote... Worrying really.
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That is the price we pay for living in a democracy i`m afraid mate.
 
You HAVE to use profiling IMO and that means making judgements about people. Rightly or wrongly we all have stereotypes. If I said a couple of football hooligans are coming round the corner and you saw a couple of Asians, an elderly couple, a couple of 30yo white skinheads and two ladies dressed nicely who would you think are the hooligans. In the 80s, an IRA terrorist would most likely have an Irish accent, in these days a terrorist is not likely to be white. That is not racism, its a fact. While you do get female peadophiles, if I said be on the lookout for a p**** round the park I am sure people would focus just on the men.

So a group of 4 Asians round a nuclear plant does look dodgy!
 
cambsno said:
You HAVE to use profiling IMO and that means making judgements about people. Rightly or wrongly we all have stereotypes. If I said a couple of football hooligans are coming round the corner and you saw a couple of Asians, an elderly couple, a couple of 30yo white skinheads and two ladies dressed nicely who would you think are the hooligans. In the 80s, an IRA terrorist would most likely have an Irish accent, in these days a terrorist is not likely to be white. That is not racism, its a fact. While you do get female peadophiles, if I said be on the lookout for a p**** round the park I am sure people would focus just on the men.

So a group of 4 Asians round a nuclear plant does look dodgy!
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The problem with profilling is if the other side know your doing it, they simply use people who don't fit your profile.
 
cambsno said:
You HAVE to use profiling IMO and that means making judgements about people. Rightly or wrongly we all have stereotypes. If I said a couple of football hooligans are coming round the corner and you saw a couple of Asians, an elderly couple, a couple of 30yo white skinheads and two ladies dressed nicely who would you think are the hooligans. In the 80s, an IRA terrorist would most likely have an Irish accent, in these days a terrorist is not likely to be white. That is not racism, its a fact. While you do get female peadophiles, if I said be on the lookout for a p**** round the park I am sure people would focus just on the men.

So a group of 4 Asians round a nuclear plant does look dodgy!
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The fact is that people from ethnic minorities are still massively disproportionately (compared to actual crimes committed) likely to be stopped/arrested. Are you ok with that?
 
How dare you call me a racist Alastair!!!!! I suggest you wind your neck in before judging me!

Either you're just incapable of analysing what I'm trying to say or just like making sweeping statements about individuals!

Have I once said that ALL black, Asian or "muslim" looking people are terrorists? I think you'll find the answer to that is no!!!!

Most law enforcement/anti-terror groups work on profiles, whether that be for murders, rapists, bank robbers or in this case terrorists.

Profiling takes into account lots of different factors including appearence, nationality and behaviour hence my comment about context.

If I'm wandering around a local forrest or nature reserve with my camera taking pictures of wildlife, no big deal. But to use my previous example of me wandering around a playground full of kids and taking pictures, I rapidly fall into the profile of a paedophile.

TBH I'd expect to be questioned by police to justify my actions as what's to say I'm not a paedophile? I'm a lone male taking photos of kids. One day there might really be a sicko taking pictures of kids.

The same would go for a young Asian male taking pictures of a potential terrorist target. Chances are he's just a guy getting photos of some tourist attractions BUT he would also fit the profile of a terrorist.

As for the figures you quote, not really sure of the relavence when you consider how many thousands "a vanishingly small minority" can kill/mame in a VERY short space of time.

TBH I think it's a very emotive discussion to be having on a web-forum and I'm not coming across how I would in person.
 
grum said:
The fact is that people from ethnic minorities are still massively disproportionately (compared to actual crimes committed) likely to be stopped/arrested. Are you ok with that?
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Treated as that simple statement no, but its far probably far more complex than that. Are we talking all crimes or certain ones... there are plenty of things that could affect that.

I come back to profiling - Its not 100% and it will be wrong some of the time, but it does have a basis. If I asked you to find 10 people on the street carrying knives, you would focus on the 12-25 male age group (of all colours). Sure, many would not have knives and you could easily miss a 50 yo man or girl with a knife taking that view but you would be more likely to find them using profiling as a starting point.

I use profiling on my customers (while also tryingto keep an open mind) and judge the way they communicate with me, house, job etc...use that as a guide to who will spend the most with me. Generally I can predict how much people will spend fairly accurately.
 
Have I once said that ALL black, Asian or "muslim" looking people are terrorists? I think you'll find the answer to that is no!!!!
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Oh well, as long as you don't think that ALL 'foreigners' are terrorists, you're definitely not a racist.

If I'm wandering around a local forrest or nature reserve with my camera taking pictures of wildlife, no big deal. But to use my previous example of me wandering around a playground full of kids and taking pictures, I rapidly fall into the profile of a paedophile.

TBH I'd expect to be questioned by police to justify my actions as what's to say I'm not a paedophile? I'm a lone male taking photos of kids. One day there might really be a sicko taking pictures of kids.
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This is also a classic example of allowing tabloid newspaper stereotypes, rather than actual facts, to inform behaviour.
 
grum said:
Oh well, as long as you don't think that ALL 'foreigners' are terrorists, you're definitely not a racist.



This is also a classic example of allowing tabloid newspaper stereotypes, rather than actual facts, to inform behaviour.
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Are you deliberately trying to twist what I'm saying or do you have a valid point hidden in there?

Where have I used the term foreigners?

Perhaps you need to have a second attempt at your response?

As for bring "tabloid" examples into this, would you care to enlighten me as to what appearence/behaviour you would consider applicable to a paedophile?
 
Russ77 said:
As for bring "tabloid" examples into this, would you care to enlighten me as to what appearence/behaviour you would consider applicable to a paedophile?
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"And that one in the spotlight, he don't look right to me. Get him up against the wall." (Roger Waters/Pink Floyd)

If only it was that simple. I haven't got a clue what a paedophile looks like and probably the man that most "looks" the part is the least likely. Same with terrorists. The police seem to have similar problems, or why else would they shoot an innocent man in the head? They didn't do it deliberately, that's for sure.

Profiling is all very well but it's terribly inefficient and counter-productive if it only narrows it down to several million young male Asian Muslims.

Truth, fairness and decency are the cornerstones of our free democracy and yet people seem all too ready to sacrifice these principles as an expediency to fighting terrorism.

I'm glad Bin Laden is dead, he was a wicked, evil and cowardly man. I don't much care how the Americans did it but I do care about the truth. Unfortunately it increasingly seems that the truth was buried at sea with OBL. We are now on the third version of the "truth" about that operation, despite the navy Seals supposedly having video cameras on their heads. We seem to be in danger of sacrificing fairness and decency towards ethnic minorities because of paranoia about terrorist reprisals. It seems the World's most evil terrorist is still influencing Western society and scoring victories from beyond his watery grave. Do we really want that?
 
I don't disagree with what you're saying John but can you think of any other method other than profiling to base counter-intelligence on?

I think as human beings, we profile as a matter of course, without even realising it......

If you see a lowered Ford Escort with hoooooge alloy wheels and a exhaust the size of a dustbin (we both live in Essex so we've probably seen this) without any real thought you assume the driver's a "boy racer", he might not be, he could be a car enthusiast.

I don't look at every "foreign" looking person and assume they're a terrorist, I don't look at every black person and assume they love reggae, that would be the equivalent of a black person looking at me and assuming I like brass bands and morris dancing :lol: but on an individual basis I'd say most, if not all people make subconscious assumptions about people, without necessarily judging them.

Another example, you see a guy in a pub that built like a brick out-house wearing THE tightest t-shirt known to man, dangling the keys to his Porsche and shouting loudly as he tells someone on the phone how much money he made in the last week..... I'm sure we'd be quick do draw conlusions as to what type of person he is ;)

It's nothing personal against this bloke but we do it. Pretty much in the same way that sub-consciously we all decide if a member of the opposite sex would be a good mate or not (but I wont elaborate and go waaaaay off topic here).

There have been some anti-terrorism radio ads recently saying "If you suspect something, trust your instinct, report it", are you suggesting that if you noticed some shifty characters taking photos of a potential target or your neighbours having tons of fertilizer delivered when their garden resembles a building site it would be wrong to assume they are up to no good and you wouldn't want to report them because you'd be making an assumption about them?
 
Russ77 said:
If you see a lowered Ford Escort with hoooooge alloy wheels and a exhaust the size of a dustbin (we both live in Essex so we've probably seen this) without any real thought you assume the driver's a "boy racer", he might not be, he could be a car enthusiast
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Yet another example trying to demonstrate that judging a person by the colour of their skin is OK. However, this example, just like all the others fails epically.

The guy in the Escort chose that car. He chose to pimp it. The guy with the Porsche keys chose to be an ********.

Deciding on somebody's nature from their lifestyle choices may have some justification. Making the same decision about somebody based on something over which they have no control has no justification. When that decision making is based on an individual's skin colour it's called racism and somebody who makes such decisions is a racist.
 
hollis_f said:
Yet another example trying to demonstrate that judging a person by the colour of their skin is OK. However, this example, just like all the others fails epically.

The guy in the Escort chose that car. He chose to pimp it. The guy with the Porsche keys chose to be an ********.

Deciding on somebody's nature from their lifestyle choices may have some justification. Making the same decision about somebody based on something over which they have no control has no justification. When that decision making is based on an individual's skin colour it's called racism and somebody who makes such decisions is a racist.
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Read what I said again........

I think I made a pretty clear distinction between making and assumtion and judging someone ;) There is a difference.

I was also trying to point out that we make assumptions on things other than the colour of someone's skin which obviously went over your head......
 
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Someone can be as racist / sexist / or just ist as they like - no offence but to act in those ways may incur force of law (Even - perhaps especially for those enforcing the law). Stereotyping is a valuable tool of law enforcement, but is not to be used in isolation. Stereotyping through race alone most likely to be racism. I don't think anyone here has suggested that's acceptable. There's a lot of hot air on the thread - 'your a racist' - 'you called me racist' - blah blah. I've a feeling my first reply to this thread may be correct. These men want to tell a tale of how they were suspected terrorists once. (If for gain, kudos, fame, some sort of planned racist lawsuit, ignorance or stupidity) From what I've read, I believe the men merited investigation (race included in that merit). Four young men, in a non local vehicle, photographing around a nuclear installation, these men were Asians (>1% population there, compared to ~ 6% nationally) If we had heard of some of the circumstances of these men's photography were ignored & they went on their way, I believe there would be an outcry. They merited stopping, investigating, & bearing in mind the possible ramifications of what they may have been doing, arresting & fully checking them out to clarify what they were doing. Not really feasible or lawful at the roadside.
 
Yes it did warrant stopping them, but did it warrant locking them up for 36 hours, searching their houses and telling the world that the found suspicious substances? Which either means the police have let terrorists loose or the experts searching the house couldn't tell "I can't believe it's not semtex" from the real thing.
 
Sometimes it might be better to be black?

The IPCC's study into deaths in Police Custody in England and Wales between 1998 and 2010 showed there were 333 deaths with no policeman successfully prosecuted.

Those who died in custody were mostly white (75%), male (90%) and aged between 25 and 44.

The number of deaths each year had fallen from 49 in 1998-99 to 15 in 2008-09, slightly increasing to 17 last year.
 
swanseamale47 said:
Yes it did warrant stopping them, but did it warrant locking them up for 36 hours, searching their houses and telling the world that the found suspicious substances? Which either means the police have let terrorists loose or the experts searching the house couldn't tell "I can't believe it's not semtex" from the real thing.
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Trouble is the police are damned if they do and damned if they dont. One minute people are up in arms about civil liberties and false arrest and the fact the police got it wrong. The next they are moaning that the police did nothing to stop the terrorists!
 
cambsno said:
Trouble is the police are damned if they do and damned if they dont. One minute people are up in arms about civil liberties and false arrest and the fact the police got it wrong. The next they are moaning that the police did nothing to stop the terrorists!
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Which sums up the situation here apparently

Everyone knows better than the experts.......
 
We have to accept that we do notice differences.

You see a row of 5 tulips 4 red and 1 yellow you will immediately look at the yellow one and say that is different. It is no less beautiful and no less a tulip. It just happens to be a different colour.

It is when we react differently that it causes problems.

When I was in junior school we had two "afro-caribbean" brothers in an all white school. Initially what attracted me to them is that they where "different" but after that they were just part of our gang.

Years later I worked with an afro-caribbean fitter, we had many a night out together and any comments about the colour of his skin were taken in the spirit they were intended. No different than the comments made about me being a country bumpkin or my boss being a jock with ginger hair.

However 18 months later his brother came to work with us and I just couldn't get on with him. He was the one who was always using colour. Examples of what I mean was comments like black music is the only music, comments about black athletes being better than white etc. But that is no different to the guy who came along afterwards who was very religious. God gave us this god did that for us etc.
 
cambsno said:
Trouble is the police are damned if they do and damned if they dont. One minute people are up in arms about civil liberties and false arrest and the fact the police got it wrong. The next they are moaning that the police did nothing to stop the terrorists!
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10 points for the only sensible post in this whole thread. This whole thread from start to finish has been about people making assumptions, assumptions about the police, assumptions about those taken in, assumptions about the whole matter in fact.

Only those arrested and the police know the full facts, clearly they had reasons to detain them and they did so.
 
seems a lot of people are getting excited because the police detained 4 muslim men acting suspiciously near a nuclear power plant.

to those people, ask yourself if this was 1942 and the police had just detained four germans taking photos of a key item of national infrastructure , would you be so ready to believe that they were just four mates out for a drive.

Now I know that not every muslim supports the actions of AQ, but then not every german supported the actions of the third reich so the comparison stands

I'd also suggest that we stop using muslim as a colour descriptor or as a synonym for asian or middle eastern- there are a fairly large number of black muslims, and a fair number of white ones (think bosnia for example) - and equally there are numerous asians (hindus sihks etc) and arabs (druze, ba'hai, coptic christians etc) who arent islamic.

the police and security forces are well aware of that - and I would hazard a guess that anyone of any colour who is seen acting suspiciously arround a nuclear installation etc will have some explaining to do.

lastly on the - just out for a drive front - sellafeild is down the end of a peninsula, you'd have to work pretty hard to get there so its not likely that you'd get within shooting distance by accident while gurning at sheep.
 
cambsno said:
Trouble is the police are damned if they do and damned if they dont. One minute people are up in arms about civil liberties and false arrest and the fact the police got it wrong. The next they are moaning that the police did nothing to stop the terrorists!
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That's very true and sometimes I think that's why the police over-react or try too hard. Unless they have very good intelligence (rather than just randomly stopping and searching a healthy quota of Asians/Muslims/Photographers/People wearing a pink hat on a Wednesday) their task is virtually impossible. All the might and resources of American intelligence took ten years to track down just one known and high profile terrorist.

That's why, to a great extent, we have to take terrorist outrages on the chin when they happen. It's no good restricting freedom and changing our culture and traditions in the vain hope that this might prove effective, it won't. In fact, seeing the impact they have on our society only provides hope and encouragement to the perpetrators. Far better to jealously safeguard our heritage of freedom, decency and democracy and stand united in stoic defiance of the enemy and all they believe. Eventually the message may get through that they can bomb us for a thousand years but they will never win an inch. Then all that leaves them with is a lost and pathetic cause. Don't massage their sick egos, don't give them any hope, allow them any encouragement or show them any weakness.

It's no good blaming the police, the Government or the security services when an attrocity happens. We're all on the front line, all in this together and it's only by standing firm, holding our nerve and refusing to budge that we will win and defeat the forces of evil.
 
jamesoliverstone said:
Except when some of us are ex Hampshire police officers ;)
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so are you saying that if there were four guys acting suspiciously and photographing for example the Gosport naval facilities , hampshire constabluary would just shrug and say "oh well its probably nothing"
 
Oh I forgot 4 - count em, 4 men in a car , not 1 man 1 women 2 kids, not even 2 mixed sex couples, any one of which groups could contain a terrorist of course. However added to all the other factors they (including colour) - they merited investigation. For that to be worthwhile it would entail checks at their homes, into associates etc etc I doubt I'd know explosives from plasticine but would hope the searching officers would. Suspicious substances may just be suspected drugs though. The fact they didn't find 'evidence of an obvious terrorist plot' doesn't mean there was, or wasn't one, just it wasn't found. But if they did find 'illegal porn', stolen goods or drugs etc, they're not going to ignore it. Perhaps stating 'suspicious substance found' was simply injudicious. Of course the press & the public can't wait to see a conclusion to jump to. From what's been released so far, I can't see any injustice or inappropriate action.
 
suspicious substances could also one something like nitrate fertiliser or acetone - innocent in themselves and not sufficient to warrant a charge - but ingredients in making (respectively) ANFO and TATP home made explosives
 
big soft moose said:
germans[/B] taking photos of a key item of national infrastructure , would you be so ready to believe that they were just four mates out for a drive.

Now I know that not every muslim supports the actions of AQ, but then not every german supported the actions of the third reich so the comparison stands

.
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The comparison doesn't stand, it's not even a comparison! German is a nationality, Islam is a religion. In 1942 we were at war with Germany; at the moment we are not at war with anyone, although I'd certainly agree that our involvement in Libya and Afganistan is questionable.
 
goldenlight said:
The comparison doesn't[stand, it's not even a comparison! German is a nationality, Islam is a religion. In 1942 we were at war with Germany; at the moment we are not at war with anyone, although I'd certainly agree that our involvement in Libya and Afganistan is questionable.
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so the war on terror has passed you by then ? last time i checked we were at war with the taliban in afghanistan and with AQ wherether they may be.

if there are people out there who want to change the way our country runs and are actively atacking us to bring about that change then we are at war, and finding four people acting suspiciously arround a national strategic asset is cause for arrest at any time, but particularly at a time when we are, or suspect we are about to be under attack.

I agree that the law should be colour blind but at the same time treating everyone equally means just that - it doesnt mean not stopping asians because police might fear being called racist in circumstances when they would stop white people
 
big soft moose said:
seems a lot of people are getting excited because the police detained 4 muslim men acting suspiciously near a nuclear power plant.
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big soft moose said:
I'd also suggest that we stop using muslim as a colour descriptor or as a synonym for asian or middle eastern- there are a fairly large number of black muslims, and a fair number of white ones (think bosnia for example) - and equally there are numerous asians (hindus sihks etc) and arabs (druze, ba'hai, coptic christians etc) who arent islamic.
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Er, why did you assume these men were Muslim?
 
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