Four photographers arrested under section 41

[swanseamale47]

so the war on terror has passed you by then ? last time i checked we were at war with the taliban in afghanistan and with AQ wherether they may be.

if there are people out there who want to change the way our country runs and are actively atacking us to bring about that change then we are at war, and finding four people acting suspiciously arround a national strategic asset is cause for arrest at any time, but particularly at a time when we are, or suspect we are about to be under attack.

I agree that the law should be colour blind but at the same time treating everyone equally means just that - it doesnt mean not stopping asians because police might fear being called racist in circumstances when they would stop white people

The term war on terror was first used by Reagans administration in 1984, but that didn't stop the US raising funds for the IRA. Bush then used the term again in 2001, he also mentioned crusade, not a great choice of words.
As far as I'm aware there has been no formal declaration of war for either Afghanistan or Iraq, by either the UK or the US.

 

[Musicman]

The term war on terror was first used by Reagans administration in 1984

Reagan actually used the term "The War Against Terrorism"

For some reason the acronym didn't stick...

 

[Splog]

The term war on terror was first used by Reagans administration in 1984, but that didn't stop the US raising funds for the IRA. Bush then used the term again in 2001, he also mentioned crusade, not a great choice of words.
As far as I'm aware there has been no formal declaration of war for either Afghanistan or Iraq, by either the UK or the US.

Exactly! We're not at war.... We're just killing people to impose our will and values upon those that survive....... We bomb them.... They bomb us. What goes around comes around! The oil just helps pay for it.

It's a sick world!

 

[swanseamale47]

Reagan actually used the term "The War Against Terrorism"

For some reason the acronym didn't stick...

He can't declare war, it has to come from congress, the president can ask for it through.

 

[goldenlight]

so the war on terror has passed you by then ? last time i checked we were at war with the taliban in afghanistan and with AQ wherether they may be.

if there are people out there who want to change the way our country runs and are actively atacking us to bring about that change then we are at war, and finding four people acting suspiciously arround a national strategic asset is cause for arrest at any time, but particularly at a time when we are, or suspect we are about to be under attack.

I agree that the law should be colour blind but at the same time treating everyone equally means just that - it doesnt mean not stopping asians because police might fear being called racist in circumstances when they would stop white people

Sorry, I should have made it plain I was using the more narrow definition of war as a state of open armed conflict between two or more countries, or a dispute between those countries which they believe can only be settled by force, as in the war with Germany to which you referred. That can hardly be placed in the same league as trying to control a few tenacious renegade tribesmen at the request of the Afghan Government.

"War" is of course commonly missused in the context of taking action forceful or otherwise, against a particular problem, such as war on poverty, war on benefit cheats, war on crime, the Cod War and the war on terror. I think it serves no purpose elevating Al Queda to the status of a powerful, sovereign nation such as Germany. They are international criminals, unbalanced fanatics with extreme and illogical views. OK, in a sense so was Hitler, I'll give you that one, but the difference is that he was leader of a country. I would hesitate to give Bin Laden any status other than international criminal and, satisfying as his death may be, in the long term it may have been better if he had been forced to undergo trial as a criminal.

As to your original point, we really can't treat all Asians, Muslims and anyone other than white Anglo Saxons as nationals of a country with whome we are at war. I don't actually disagree with heightened security at nuclear installations provided it applies to all who enter the vincinity and not just some.

 

[Musicman]

He can't declare war, it has to come from congress, the president can ask for it through.

True. US Congress hasn't formally declared war since 1942.

Reagan was following in the rhetorical footsteps of Lyndon B Johnson, who declared a 'war on poverty' in 1964 and Richard Nixon, who declared a 'war on drugs' in 1971.

 

[dubcat]

I never understand why these threads are in 'talk photography'...

 

[goldenlight]

I never understand why these threads are in 'talk photography'...

The relevance is that the men were reported to have been taking photographs and that was one of the reasons for suspicion. In recent history, in many parts of the UK photographers have been stopped and searched for no other reason than that they were photographers. It is therefore a very relevant topic for a photography forum. Unfortunately it all gets a bit political but, like it or not, photographers in general have been politicized in recent years by the wider society.

You don't however, have to read or participate in these threads.

 

[Kemble3]

I never understand why these threads are in 'talk photography'...

Well it did start out with 4 togs getting nicked for doing something stupid, but some on here just want to vent there own political views and agendas. (will I be called a racist now for saying that?):bonk:

 

[dubcat]

Kemble oh i know but they always turn in to the same banal discussion ... and i totally agree with you btw. Well said.

 

[Marts]

Well it did start out with 4 togs getting nicked for doing something stupid, but some on here just want to vent there own political views and agendas. (will I be called a rasist now for saying that?):bonk:

It did start off as a relevant thread to photographers. Particularly as there seem to be so many stories these days of people being stopped and over zealously policed. However the thread then went off at a tangent........

 

[Marts]

Well it did start out with 4 togs getting nicked for doing something stupid, but some on here just want to vent there own political views and agendas. (will I be called a rasist now for saying that?):bonk:

I doubt you will be branded a racist for that , other names maybe, but not a racist lol

 

[goldenlight]

I doubt you will be branded a racist for that , other names maybe, but not a racist lol

I'm not so sure, the way he typed "4 togs" seemed to imply they were black muslims. At the very least I think it may be subliminal racism. We all know that racism is rife within photography, it's only the elite, top quality lenses that ever seem to be white. What does that tell you, eh?

 

[Russ77]

I'm not so sure, the way he typed "4 togs" seemed to imply they were black muslims. At the very least I think it may be subliminal racism. We all know that racism is rife within photography, it's only the elite, top quality lenses that ever seem to be white. What does that tell you, eh?

 

[seriousrikk]

I'm not so sure, the way he typed "4 togs" seemed to imply they were black muslims. At the very least I think it may be subliminal racism. We all know that racism is rife within photography, it's only the elite, top quality lenses that ever seem to be white. What does that tell you, eh?

/thread

 

[ziggy©]

We all know that racism is rife within photography, it's only the elite, top quality lenses that ever seem to be white. What does that tell you, eh?

That a good one.

 

[Jelster]

This thread is so far off topic.

4 young men in a car, no matter what their colour, race, or religious beliefs are a prime target for police. God when I was younger I used to get stopped on a weekly basis, just a young guy in an MGB was reason enough for a "tug".

It's not racist, it's the Police doing the job they're empowered to do. Next time there's a terrorist attack in this country I hope all the PC brigade will still be feeling just as smug...

(Oh, suspicious substances could even be cannabis....)

Steve

 

[swanseamale47]

This thread is so far off topic.

4 young men in a car, no matter what their colour, race, or religious beliefs are a prime target for police. God when I was younger I used to get stopped on a weekly basis, just a young guy in an MGB was reason enough for a "tug".

It's not racist, it's the Police doing the job they're empowered to do. Next time there's a terrorist attack in this country I hope all the PC brigade will still be feeling just as smug...

(Oh, suspicious substances could even be cannabis....)

Steve

Thats not suspicious, thats illegal, if the experts they sent out cant tell Cannabis they are in the wrong job, even I can spot that and I've never touched the stuff.

 

[hollis_f]

4 young men in a car, no matter what their colour, race, or religious beliefs are a prime target for police.

So, when was the last time a group of white lads were locked up for a day and a half for taking Facebook pics with their iPhones?

 

[pitkin2020]

So, when was the last time a group of white lads were locked up for a day and a half for taking Facebook pics with their iPhones?

How could anyone even answer that question?? Unless your some high flying police officer requesting info like this on a daily basis its unknown. Not everything that the police do is reported on an hourly basis. The fact this incident was reported at all was the fact of timing and location. Seriously I would rather the police took anyone in for questioning (even me if I was there) to clear the facts up then miss a potential chance to stop a threat. You can't have your cake and eat, the police have to be proactive its no use them only investigating things after they have happened.
Firstly the timing of being around a nuclear plant was very bad, if they knew about Osama then they were stupid, if they didn't then it was just bad luck. Secondly being around a nuclear power plant as a group of 4 lads taking pictures is going to be seen as suspicious anyway, no different to 4 lads with hoodies hanging around the streets at night, your natural instinct is to be suspicious.

If you seriously think the police shouldn't be treating every possible suspicious situation seriously then I think you need to come off the happy pills because its clearly clouding your judgements.

 

[Kemble3]

So, when was the last time a group of white lads were locked up for a day and a half for taking Facebook pics with their iPhones?

When was the last time a group of white lads were caught togging around Selefield Neclear Plant? Why do people like you instantly jump to the conclusion that this was only about the colour of there skin in not the potentual threat to national security:bang:

 

[pitkin2020]

When was the last time a group of white lads were caught togging around Selefield Neclear Plant? Why do people like you instantly jump to the conclusion that this was only about the colour of there skin in not the potentual threat to national security:bang:

This is the problem now you have so many people who think they are anti racist so they think by screaming about everything being racially motivated it makes them a better person (or maybe its to make them look less of a racist themselves - who knows). Trouble is its these people who turn situations into racially motivated situations rather then a situation that isn't even related to skin colour what so ever.

 

[Jelster]

Thats not suspicious, thats illegal, if the experts they sent out cant tell Cannabis they are in the wrong job, even I can spot that and I've never touched the stuff.

Until tested, it's classed as suspicious. The point I was (obviously) trying to make was that the substance may not have been terrorist related.

This forum is hard work at times :bonk:

 

[swanseamale47]

Until tested, it's classed as suspicious. The point I was (obviously) trying to make was that the substance may not have been terrorist related.

This forum is hard work at times :bonk:

Yep!

 

[Jelster]

So, when was the last time a group of white lads were locked up for a day and a half for taking Facebook pics with their iPhones?

Well, when I had my MGB the Internet hadn't been invented.

Seems like I need to explain myself in detail AGAIN... The point I am trying to make is that them being stopped was not out of order, now very few people will actually know what words were exchanged during that encounter, or what may have been found in the car. But I for one believe that there must have been something suspicious for the Police to follow through with the actions they did, or they'd be in the dark stuff themselves.

We can all make assumptions, but we are all aware of the attitudes of some when questioned by authority, and until proved wrong, I'm happy to assume that something was said or found to drive the police down the route that they took.

Remember, as much as we like to believe this is a "free" country, you are only free to say/do what you want to a certain point until the authorities take action, otherwise their would be no crime prevention/protection, just the solving of completed crimes. I know which environment I would rather live in.

 

[goldenlight]

This is the problem now you have so many people who think they are anti racist so they think by screaming about everything being racially motivated it makes them a better person (or maybe its to make them look less of a racist themselves - who knows). Trouble is its these people who turn situations into racially motivated situations rather then a situation that isn't even related to skin colour what so ever.

It's unfortunate that the issue of race was raised within this thread, which quite rightly was originally about the photography aspect of this incident. However, if someone makes racist remarks here or anywhere else (and there have been some very close to the wind posts in this thread) I will bite!

The enduring issue for me is the apparently now deeply ingrained association in the minds of the police and general public between photography and terrorism, perversion and crime. So much so that it is often the prime trigger for suspicion, stopping, questioning and searching. I tried to diffuse the racial aspect of this discussion a few posts back with an attempt at some humour, but it still seems to be lingering. I respectfully suggest that we let the racial issue rest and concentrate on the photographic implications.

Now I will conceed that in the present climate immediately post Bin Laden going anywhere near a nuclear installation is likely to attract attention, whatever you are doing. However, once again we seem to be plunged into a climate of fear and paranoia when, for once, we (or more correctly the Americans) have actually had some real success against these
criminals. The fact that the authorities don't know how or where retaliative strikes may happen illustrates a worrying lack of real or specific intelligence. If one of the main areas of advice for the police from their superiors is to look out for anyone with cameras, that's not very reasurring, is it?

Real intelligence would include the location of terrorist cells and the identity of suspected "sleepers" who are likey to become active in situations such as this. Pro-active prevention would include the monitoring, surveilance and infiltration of these groups. That's been my point all along, we don't seem to have that level of intelligence and the best defence seems to be random targeting of people who match certain profiles, including photographers. If that's the best we can do I'm afraid it's inevitable that sooner or later there will be another major attrocity. When it happens it will not only be unfair, but also pointless to blame the police for failing to prevent it. In the meantime we risk further erosion of our liberties, compromises to our culture and divisions within our society. I'm sorry, but that's just letting the terrorists win.

When you cannot do anything useful or constructive, sometimes the best thing to do is nothing. Demonstrate to these evil morons that they cannot change us and we will not budge. Don't give them a sliver of hope or a shread of encouragement. Obviously we must maintain rigorous security around nuclear facilities, but we must not allow the general threat to cast a shadow over our everyday lives.

That's why my signature contains the quote, "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[pitkin2020]

WOW how is it up there John....up in the clouds that is, everyone sitting around singing KumByYa. Sorry but one way intelligence is gathered is from profiling as well as lot so of other means, whether it's profiling of p****'s, serial killers or even terrorists. Yes anyone outside of those profiles could be guilty of course they could, not everyone does fit into the profile but I would suspect majority do. As it happens a good proportion of those involved in terrorism threats are from the middle east, you can't deny that, so they fit a profile, like it or not it has nothing to do with race. I suspect out in the middle east they were suspicious of any white americans, does that make them racists aswell or does racism only work one way!!! Does that comment make me a racist or a realist..........

You say some of the comments have been close to the mark, I may have missed some comments (as this thread is getting very long) but those that I have seen have come across as factual comments rather than all xyz are guilty of terrorism, or to that point. Racism as you put in this thread as far as I have seen has been no more than stereotyping. I may have missed some like I said, and if you really feel there are racist comments in this thread report the post.

Photographers probably do appear more suspicious when hanging around places taking detailed pictures as opposed to someone who is just walking past. Your attitude to the police may make you look even more suspicious, some people really feel the need to make things so much harder for themselves. Whilst you may be there to take pictures for pleasure how do you know the bloke stood next to you taking the same pictures isn't doing it for more sinister reasons. Well frankly you don't, how could you unless you can read that persons mind.

Whilst I appreciate it maybe annoying to be questioned for what you think is just taking pictures but its no more annoying for drivers who get stopped because they look young, they have a right to drive surely if they have a license so why should they be stopped? The police are only human and a lot of stops/questioning/searches etc are done from instinct rather than just because a piece of paper has told them. If they only worked off this so called intelligence drink drivers would never get stopped for instance etc. Personally as I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear from the police when being stopped for any reason. I am happy to answers the questions they may have, again as I have nothing to hide.

As for what intelligence the UK has or doesn't have you or I will never know, no matter what you have read in the daily mail. Its intelligence and if it was shared with every tom dick or harry it would be pretty useless. Your saying the police don't have the intel they should have but they can only get intel by probing, people don't just come to them and dump a 500 page report on their desk outlining what is going to happen in the next 6 months. They don't just decide to go and raid someones home because that person is of a different race.

I do agree with your last statement to a point, we can't let the threat of terrorism change our everyday lives, but we have to be aware of whats going on around us, but it can't be both ways. The police have to investigate all possible avenues so we as the general public can carry on normal. It would be great to live in a world where there are no threats of anything, but it'll never happen.

In the end we all stereotype people, most of the time without even realising we are doing it, but that doesn't make someone a racist or anything else for that matter. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who are racist and have strong views on the matter but most of what has been put up in this thread seems to have been twisted out of context to make it fit a racists view.

 

[Splog]

In the end we all stereotype people, most of the time without even realising we are doing it, but that doesn't make someone a racist or anything else for that matter. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who are racist and have strong views on the matter but most of what has been put up in this thread seems to have been twisted out of context to make it fit a racists view.

 

[goldenlight]

WOW how is it up there John....up in the clouds that is, everyone sitting around singing KumByYa. Sorry but one way intelligence is gathered is from profiling as well as lot so of other means, whether it's profiling of p****'s, serial killers or even terrorists. Yes anyone outside of those profiles could be guilty of course they could, not everyone does fit into the profile but I would suspect majority do. As it happens a good proportion of those involved in terrorism threats are from the middle east, you can't deny that, so they fit a profile, like it or not it has nothing to do with race. I suspect out in the middle east they were suspicious of any white americans, does that make them racists aswell or does racism only work one way!!! Does that comment make me a racist or a realist..........

You say some of the comments have been close to the mark, I may have missed some comments (as this thread is getting very long) but those that I have seen have come across as factual comments rather than all xyz are guilty of terrorism, or to that point. Racism as you put in this thread as far as I have seen has been no more than stereotyping. I may have missed some like I said, and if you really feel there are racist comments in this thread report the post.

Photographers probably do appear more suspicious when hanging around places taking detailed pictures as opposed to someone who is just walking past. Your attitude to the police may make you look even more suspicious, some people really feel the need to make things so much harder for themselves. Whilst you may be there to take pictures for pleasure how do you know the bloke stood next to you taking the same pictures isn't doing it for more sinister reasons. Well frankly you don't, how could you unless you can read that persons mind.

Whilst I appreciate it maybe annoying to be questioned for what you think is just taking pictures but its no more annoying for drivers who get stopped because they look young, they have a right to drive surely if they have a license so why should they be stopped? The police are only human and a lot of stops/questioning/searches etc are done from instinct rather than just because a piece of paper has told them. If they only worked off this so called intelligence drink drivers would never get stopped for instance etc. Personally as I have nothing to hide I have nothing to fear from the police when being stopped for any reason. I am happy to answers the questions they may have, again as I have nothing to hide.

As for what intelligence the UK has or doesn't have you or I will never know, no matter what you have read in the daily mail. Its intelligence and if it was shared with every tom dick or harry it would be pretty useless. Your saying the police don't have the intel they should have but they can only get intel by probing, people don't just come to them and dump a 500 page report on their desk outlining what is going to happen in the next 6 months. They don't just decide to go and raid someones home because that person is of a different race.

I do agree with your last statement to a point, we can't let the threat of terrorism change our everyday lives, but we have to be aware of whats going on around us, but it can't be both ways. The police have to investigate all possible avenues so we as the general public can carry on normal. It would be great to live in a world where there are no threats of anything, but it'll never happen.

In the end we all stereotype people, most of the time without even realising we are doing it, but that doesn't make someone a racist or anything else for that matter. I'm not saying there aren't people out there who are racist and have strong views on the matter but most of what has been put up in this thread seems to have been twisted out of context to make it fit a racists view.

And there I was hoping we could move away from the racism angle and re-focus on the photography aspect. Oh well, guess I had better learn the words to KumByYa.

I suppose we all have differing definitions of what constitutes racist remarks but for me these come pretty close:-

It may be wrong to judge people by skin colour..... but it's not a bad way to start................

Is judging people by the the colour of their skin really so wrong?

Judging people by the colour of their skin is very different from profiling.

You mention my attitude to the police..... All I said was it is unfair to blame them if they are unable to prevent a terrorist attack. I suggested that they may not have the real intelligence that they need but that is not a critisism, more a fact of life. I would imagine such intelligence to be remarkably hard to develop. If only it was as easy as stopping four Asian guys with a camera near a nuclear plant - I don't suppose real terrorists would be anywhere near that reckless, in fact quite the opposite - they usually take great care not to draw attention to themselves. That's why often when an attrocity is committed the perpetrator turns out to be the least likely suspect, to the point where even close familly are stunned and shocked by disbelief.

You say that It would be great to live in a world where there are no threats of anything, but it'll never happen. Exactly. The problem is that people do expect the police and the Government to protect them against terrorist attacks and this puts unfair pressure on the police because it is totally unrealistic - you see, I'm actually speaking up for the police. As is often said, they have to be lucky every time, the terrorists only have to be lucky once.

Far from being a Daily Mail reader (almost as insulting as accusing me of being a Tory, but it doesn't matter because I like you ) and living in the clouds I'm actually a realist, acknowledging that, sadly, there will at some point be a successful terrorist attack. That's the price we must pay for our freedom.

 

[pitkin2020]

Like I said John I may have missed some of the comments, those that you have highlighted blue could be seen as racist comments (i'm not saying they are or aren't as I can't be bothered with the debate that will no doubt follow either comment from lots of other posters lol).

I agree with everything above, that post certainly came across differently to the one further up, the problem with forums also things don't always come across as they were intended and others sometimes read it how they think it came across.

Either way the four guys what ever they were doing were being silly taking pics of a sensitive site at the time they did, I think most people here agree with that. Whether or not they were aware of the situations that had unfolded out in the middle east it was bad timing. I'm sure the police made a decision for any actions that followed based on evidence or what ever rather than based on their skin colour.

P.S you sure your not a Daily mail reading Tory?? No probs if you are, you can admit....i'm sure no one here would judge you (i'm only playing btw) LOL

 

[Urban Grimshaw]

A bunch of white guys taking photos, and a bunch of 'Middle Eastern' guys taking photos.. Let's face it, one bunch of guys is more likely to get arrested than the other. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the way it is.

And personally, moving back to the topic, I wouldn't think twice about taking photos of a nuclear power station. I've done it before. And I'll do it again, should I pass one.

 

[goldenlight]

P.S you sure your not a Daily mail reading Tory?? No probs if you are, you can admit....i'm sure no one here would judge you (i'm only playing btw) LOL

Yes, I'm sure - but many years ago I was, and then one day I wised up!
(That's a personal opinion, BTW, not a fact)

It seems we have pretty much a consensus of views, I apologize if my previous post didn't read as I intended.

 

[goldenlight]

A bunch of white guys taking photos, and a bunch of 'Middle Eastern' guys taking photos.. Let's face it, one bunch of guys is more likely to get arrested than the other. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the way it is.

And personally, moving back to the topic, I wouldn't think twice about taking photos of a nuclear power station. I've done it before. And I'll do it again, should I pass one.

You're right, that's the way it is - no reason why some of us shouldn't question that, though. What's the point in us having freedom if we don't exercise it.

And good for you, if there's great light on the power station it needs to be photographed!

 

[grum]

I've taken pictures of a nuclear power station a few times - but I'm white so it's fine obviously.

 

[Ploddles]

A bunch of white guys taking photos, and a bunch of 'Middle Eastern' guys taking photos.. Let's face it, one bunch of guys is more likely to get arrested than the other. Whether that's right or wrong, that's the way it is.

And personally, moving back to the topic, I wouldn't think twice about taking photos of a nuclear power station. I've done it before. And I'll do it again, should I pass one.

Go back 10, 20, 30 years and if you were white and Irish taking photos of a nuclear plant you would probably be arrested.

Not every Irishman was an IRA terrorist then, just as not all Muslims are terrorists now. It is just a very small minority that make it bad for everyone else.

There is a need to profile, so be that on skin colour, religion, sex, beliefs or anything else, if it leads to a safer world that we live in then I'm OK with that.

 

[swanseamale47]

Go back 10, 20, 30 years and if you were white and Irish taking photos of a nuclear plant you would probably be arrested.

Not every Irishman was an IRA terrorist then, just as not all Muslims are terrorists now. It is just a very small minority that make it bad for everyone else.

There is a need to profile, so be that on skin colour, religion, sex, beliefs or anything else, if it leads to a safer world that we live in then I'm OK with that.

So exactly how was locking up 4 photographers for 36 hours made the world a safer place? I'm not afraid of being blown up (allready happened and I'm still here) but I have never been attacked by photographers or blown up by an SB800 (did have a metz that went bang once though ) so they seem less of a threat to me. Creating a climate of fear helps the terrorist, we are in danger of creating our own terror.

 

[cyclamens]

Is this really still going on?

Just like to report that the eight of us taking photographs didn't get arrested in Manchester yesterday

 

[Ploddles]

So exactly how was locking up 4 photographers for 36 hours made the world a safer place? I'm not afraid of being blown up (allready happened and I'm still here) but I have never been attacked by photographers or blown up by an SB800 (did have a metz that went bang once though ) so they seem less of a threat to me. Creating a climate of fear helps the terrorist, we are in danger of creating our own terror.

Just because they had a camera doesn't make them innocent photographers!

 

[swanseamale47]

Just because they had a camera doesn't make them innocent photographers!

So your saying the police released 4 terrorists?

 

[WillyB]

So your saying the police released 4 terrorists?

The power to arrest someone and the evidence to prosecute them are entirely different things.