Breaking News: Hostage Situation in Sydney

[MWHCVT]

Rather than have this thread turn into the usual p***ing contest between the usual suspect would it please be possible to try an retain a modicum of decorum and remember across the two acts of terrorism raised in the thread over 100 innocent people have lost their lives

 

[arclight]

Be better if the Peshwar material had it's own thread/header - I think.

BBC now reporting 141 dead of which 132 are children.

WTF is going on. How can anyone on this planet possibly come to the conclusion that it is a good idea to blow yourself to bits and take others with you. :banghead:

 

[Nod]

Let's hope that the Peshawar bomber's 72 virgins include his victims and that they spend eternity extracting his screams.

(Agree that that atrocity would deserve its own thread, although that would probably descend like this one seems to be doing...)

 

[Bernie174]

WTF is going on. How can anyone on this planet possibly come to the conclusion that it is a good idea to blow yourself to bits and take others with you

People have been killing each other for their 'beliefs' just about since the beginning of time. While people, of any religious bent want to increase their status or importance by spouting a version of whatever deity they apparently believe in to others who don't have the sense to question that interpretation it will continue to happen.

It is the great unsolvable problem.

 

[donut]

i wonder how long it will be before something similar kicks off over here

 

[chadders]

Be better if the Peshwar material had it's own thread/header - I think.

BBC now reporting 141 dead of which 132 are children.

WTF is going on. How can anyone on this planet possibly come to the conclusion that it is a good idea to blow yourself to bits and take others with you. :banghead:

I think you'll find it wasn't a suicide bomber…it was seven lunatics who deliberately opened fire and killed 132 children and 9 adults. Thankfully they have all been killed in turn.

 

[MWHCVT]

i wonder how long it will be before something similar kicks off over here

Not all that long is my guess and that makes me very sad

 

[Bernie174]

i wonder how long it will be before something similar kicks off over here

We've already seen a few examples, albeit not the shootings.
If they can lay their hands on the weapons & ammo, then it'll happen. If not we'll just have the bombings and the odd Rigby style attack.

 

[simonblue]

People have been killing each other for their 'beliefs' just about since the beginning of time. While people, of any religious bent want to increase their status or importance by spouting a version of whatever deity they apparently believe in to others who don't have the sense to question that interpretation it will continue to happen.

It is the great unsolvable problem.

I hate to say it,but it's true WW11 around 60 million

 

[viv1969]

The fact that the perpetrators know they will be killed in the process of doing these things is one of the reasons they're not afraid to do it IMO.

And as long as people...groups or individuals. ..are willing or even eager to die for their beliefs, these kinds of atrocities will not only continue, but proliferate.

It's very difficult to stop someone who is completely dedicated to "sacrifice" themselves to their deity.

 

[gramps]

And as long as people...groups or individuals. ..are willing or even eager to die for their beliefs, these kinds of atrocities will not only continue, but proliferate.

It's very difficult to stop someone who is completely dedicated to "sacrifice" themselves to their deity.

Christians have always been prepared to die for their faith, e.g. the 1st Century disciples of Jesus, who were prepared to be put to death for their beliefs and the propagation of his teachings ... the difference here and in many similar cases is the desire to inflict death and injury upon others in the course of instigating their own death for a perverted cause ... quite different

7 brave soldiers embark on the most dangerous mission ... to kill children ... sick!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...n-inside-Taliban-massacre-school-emerges.html

 

[viv1969]

Christians have always been prepared to die for their faith, e.g. the 1st Century disciples of Jesus, who were prepared to be put to death for their beliefs and the propagation of his teachings ... the difference here and in many similar cases is the desire to inflict death and injury upon others in the course of instigating their own death for a perverted cause ... quite different

True, but still merely martyrs in another form.

 

[gramps]

True, but still merely martyrs in another form.

I don't want to argue with you Ruth, so I won't, but there is a difference as far apart as sunrise and sunset

 

[Ricardodaforce]

I don't want to argue with you Ruth, so I won't, but there is a difference as far apart as sunrise and sunset

Both doing the same god's will in their respective eyes.

 

[gramps]

Both doing the same god's will in their respective eyes.

Except that one is persecuted for their beliefs and the other persecutes because of their perverted and distorted beliefs.

 

[Yv]

Both doing the same god's will in their respective eyes.

yes but I see what Gramps is saying, one is risking/taking your own life in the determination to spread your gods word, the other is deliberately setting out to kill others in that determination. Either way, any death in the name of religion is a death too many.

and to address something mentioned earlier, unless the news has changed and I admit I haven't read more about it since late last night, it was a mix of shootings and one of them blowing himself up amongst the kids that caused the deaths, so he was a 'suicide bomber'. However Like I say, that was as of late last night, that may have been confirmed or denied by now. Ultimately it doesn't matter the means, only that it is an utter tragedy that has no obvious answers to find a resolution.

 

[arclight]

yes but I see what Gramps is saying, one is risking/taking your own life in the determination to spread your gods word, the other is deliberately setting out to kill others in that determination. Either way, any death in the name of religion is a death too many.

and to address something mentioned earlier, unless the news has changed and I admit I haven't read more about it since late last night, it was a mix of shootings and one of them blowing himself up amongst the kids that caused the deaths, so he was a 'suicide bomber'. However Like I say, that was as of late last night, that may have been confirmed or denied by now. Ultimately it doesn't matter the means, only that it is an utter tragedy that has no obvious answers to find a resolution.

That was how it was reported on the news this morning, Yvonne.

There are no answers. Perhaps if you come back in 1000 years some of the people involved will have progressed. Just need to hope they never get their hands on nuclear weapons.

 

[big soft moose]

the other persecutes because of their perverted and distorted beliefs.

cough spanish inquisition cough , not to mention the burning of protestants at the stake as heretics/trailtors by catholics under bloody mary (vice versa under protestant monarchs) , the Batholemew days masacre of the Hugenots by the parisian french in roughly the same period, and the various attrocities committed in gods name during the crusades (where the crusaders were considerably less restrained than their islamic oponents), and countless other examples.

While i agree that what went down in peshwar was perverse and wrong, and at considerable odds with the teachings of the Quran , the sad fact is that no religion (excep may be budhism) or nation has the moral highground in behaviour to those of other faiths or those generally different to them

 

[gramps]

cough spanish inquisition cough , not to mention the burning of protestants at the stake as heretics/trailtors by catholics under bloody mary (vice versa under protestant monarchs) , the Batholemew days masacre of the Hugenots by the parisian french in roughly the same period, and the various attrocities committed in gods name during the crusades (where the crusaders were considerably less restrained than their islamic oponents), and countless other examples.

While i agree that what went down in peshwar was perverse and wrong, and at considerable odds with the teachings of the Quran , the sad fact is that no religion (excep may be budhism) or nation has the moral highground in behaviour to those of other faiths

No difference at all, just depends on your interpretation of 'Christian' i.e. the way of Christ or the way of some religious group, be it Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

 

[chadders]

cough spanish inquisition cough , not to mention the burning of protestants at the stake as heretics/trailtors by catholics under bloody mary (vice versa under protestant monarchs) , the Batholemew days masacre of the Hugenots by the parisian french in roughly the same period, and the various attrocities committed in gods name during the crusades (where the crusaders were considerably less restrained than their islamic oponents), and countless other examples.

While i agree that what went down in peshwar was perverse and wrong, and at considerable odds with the teachings of the Quran , the sad fact is that no religion (excep may be budhism) or nation has the moral highground in behaviour to those of other faiths

Well exactly so. However "christianity" has evolved beyond that stage. The so-called "religion of peace" is still a mediaeval, misogynist religion that shows no sign of ever becoming anything else.

 

[big soft moose]

No difference at all, just depends on your interpretation of 'Christian' i.e. the way of Christ or the way of some religious group, be it Catholic, Protestant or whatever.

indeed - but if we are splitting that hair the way ISIL, AQ, Taliban etc behave has b****r all to do with the way of mohamed , but they are still percieved as islamic groups , just as the various ones i mentioned would generally be percieved as christians

 

[big soft moose]

Well exactly so. However "christianity" has evolved beyond that stage. The so-called "religion of peace" is still a mediaeval, misogynist religion that shows no sign of ever becoming anything else.

Northern Ireland , or come to that the way some of the fundamentalist christian groups in The US (and elsewhere) treat homosexuals

 

[Yv]

An interesting article, which is trying to open the debate and banish the political rhetoric - whether you agree with the ideas laid out in it is almost irrelevant, I read it as a sort of opening gambit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...chool-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html

Personally, I can't help but think that no amount of western intervention will ever stop the extremism in those countries, it often seems to breed even more resentment from both sides of the divide. The Muslim world and Muslim dominated countries need to take control, they need to get together, learn to trust each other and mount a worldwide 'offensive' against extremism [possibly/probably with help/assistance from the west, but not led by the west and encompassing not only the literal fight, but the fight for hearts and minds] in the name of their God. Certainly the actions of the Islamic state seem to have galvanised a few more nations into action, but without a concerted and determined effort by the majority, then the current [well armed, noisy and unafraid] minority will become the majority. Trouble is that's an ideal there seems to be little will to achieve. Even now Pakistan and Afghanistan are trying to talk about the Taliban on their mutual border following yesterdays attack, but the years of mistrust will be a massive stumbling block.

 

[chadders]

indeed - but if we are splitting that hair the way ISIL, AQ, Taliban etc behave has b****r all to do with the way of mohamed , but they are still percieved as islamic groups , just as the various ones i mentioned would generally be percieved as christians

As Anjem Choudry has said, "there is no moderate Islam and there is no extreme Islam…there is only Islam".

 

[MWHCVT]

An interesting article, which is trying to open the debate and banish the political rhetoric - whether you agree with the ideas laid out in it is almost irrelevant, I read it as a sort of opening gambit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...chool-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html

Personally, I can't help but think that no amount of western intervention will ever stop the extremism in those countries, it often seems to breed even more resentment from both sides of the divide. The Muslim world and Muslim dominated countries need to take control, they need to get together, learn to trust each other and mount a worldwide 'offensive' against extremism [possibly/probably with help/assistance from the west, but not led by the west and encompassing not only the literal fight, but the fight for hearts and minds] in the name of their God. Certainly the actions of the Islamic state seem to have galvanised a few more nations into action, but without a concerted and determined effort by the majority, then the current [well armed, noisy and unafraid] minority will become the majority. Trouble is that's an ideal there seems to be little will to achieve. Even now Pakistan and Afghanistan are trying to talk about the Taliban on their mutual border following yesterdays attack, but the years of mistrust will be a massive stumbling block.

Absolutely agree, the only way for extremism to be beaten is to unite Muslim countries together in that effort, and let them take the lead, maybe with the help/guidance of the west/UN but certainly not the leadership...

 

[big soft moose]

As Anjem Choudry has said, "there is no moderate Islam and there is no extreme Islam…there is only Islam".

but does he speak for all Islam ? My view would be that he doesnt. He's entitled to his view, but I know other muslims, including some imans who regard the actions of the taliban etc as an abomination

 

[big soft moose]

Absolutely agree, the only way for extremism to be beaten is to unite Muslim countries together in that effort, and let them take the lead, maybe with the help/guidance of the west/UN but certainly not the leadership...

and not to let their fundamentalists provoke a dispraportionate knee jerk reaction on our part... there are american senators who think that nuking mecca would be a good idea because that will really help :bang:

 

[gramps]

indeed - but if we are splitting that hair the way ISIL, AQ, Taliban etc behave has b****r all to do with the way of mohamed , but they are still percieved as islamic groups , just as the various ones i mentioned would generally be percieved as christians

Indeed - however in the case of Christian, the title refers to a specific way of life rather that being attached to some group.

 

[SFTPhotography]

Epic fail here for the australian legal system, to have someone facing 47 counts of sexual offences out on bail.

This...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-30510201

They've not acted on the intel and profile of him. The answer to dealing with these situations is to use your intel and act on information you have. The warning signs were there, but thats easy to say with the benefit of hindsight.

Why was in Australia anyway?

 

[Yv]

Absolutely agree, the only way for extremism to be beaten is to unite Muslim countries together in that effort, and let them take the lead, maybe with the help/guidance of the west/UN but certainly not the leadership...

The massive divides within Islam do not help, in the same way the Catholic/Protestant divides of Christianity were part of many years of the troubles in Ireland - it's a bit like taking those troubles and multiplying them one thousand fold, given the numbers of Muslims and Islamic countries in the world. Not a small job then.

 

[Yv]

and not to let their fundamentalists provoke a dispraportionate knee jerk reaction on our part... there are american senators who think that nuking mecca would be a good idea because that will really help :banghead:

That too!

 

[chadders]

Northern Ireland , or come to that the way some of the fundamentalist christian groups in The US (and elsewhere) treat homosexuals

When was the last homosexual hung in the US? When was the last female adulteress stoned to death in the US?

but does he speak for all Islam ? My view would be that he doesn't. ………. but I know other muslims, including some imans who regard the actions of the taliban etc as an abomination

Never heard of taqiyya and kitman?

 

[big soft moose]

The massive divides within Islam do not help, in the same way the Catholic/Protestant divides of Christianity were part of many years of the troubles in Ireland - it's a bit like taking those troubles and multiplying them one thousand fold, given the numbers of Muslims and Islamic countries in the world. Not a small job then.

plus of course many of those countries have multiple raciall issues and are not 'one people' (like Afghanistan has Pastuns, Tajiks, and Uzbeks , and about 40 smaller tribes) - uniting Islam is about as likely as uniting christianity ... on the plus side these difference also make it near impossible for firebrand clerics to unite them against the west (so long as we don't do something truly stupid and create a cause celebre)

 

[big soft moose]

When was the last homosexual hung in the US? When was the last female adulteress stoned to death in the US?

I'm fairly sure a homosexual was murderedin the US by religious homophobes last year , as to hangings and stonings etc read up on the activities of the KKK against blacks in the 60s and 70s ... they claimed a religious motivation because blacks were the 'sons of ham'

 

[Yv]

Never heard of taqiyya and kitman?

doesn't the fact you two are debating this point show us an absolute microcosm of the problems the world faces here though? The mixed messages coming from the Islamic community help no one, certainly non Muslims, but in particular the whole cross section of Muslims themselves, to understand what exactly is causing the problem and what can be done to help. Which brings me straight back the the point that unless the Islamic community of the world [those that oppose the violence of course, which still seem to be the huge majority] need to unite, form a agreement, and send out a single message to the world, and to the extremists. Yes, I know, a very idealist view that is highly unlikely to happen, but I can only see a way forward if they can agree to put some differences aside and work on the stuff they can all agree on.

 

[Yv]

plus of course many of those countries have multiple raciall issues and are not 'one people' (like Afghanistan has Pastuns, Tajiks, and Uzbeks , and about 40 smaller tribes) - uniting Islam is about as likely as uniting christianity ... on the plus side these difference also make it near impossible for firebrand clerics to unite them against the west (so long as we don't do something truly stupid and create a cause celebre)

why do I think that even saying those words is a bit like saying BeetleJuice 3 times

 

[gramps]

An interesting article, which is trying to open the debate and banish the political rhetoric - whether you agree with the ideas laid out in it is almost irrelevant, I read it as a sort of opening gambit.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/pakistan/11297608/After-the-Pakistan-school-attack-we-need-to-talk-about-Islam.html

An interesting read Yv all the more so to me is the "once religion becomes a matter of love of God rather than hatred of our political and social situation, we can begin to extract our communities from the hole which we have dug for ourselves’" and I can't see that ever happening because for most religious groups 'god' is merely a symbol of their preferred way of life ... if indeed 'god' has any affect on their life whatsoever.

 

[MWHCVT]

and not to let their fundamentalists provoke a dispraportionate knee jerk reaction on our part... there are american senators who think that nuking mecca would be a good idea because that will really help :banghead:

Indeed...well the Americans as much as they hate to hear this would need to take a very back seat role in this as they really need to get there own house well in order before trying to save the world

The massive divides within Islam do not help, in the same way the Catholic/Protestant divides of Christianity were part of many years of the troubles in Ireland - it's a bit like taking those troubles and multiplying them one thousand fold, given the numbers of Muslims and Islamic countries in the world. Not a small job then.

Oh indeed, I don't see this being solved within the next couple of decades if ever, and that's truly sad

 

[big soft moose]

Never heard of taqiyya and kitman?

I have but i don't believe it applies here ... thinking that every muslim secretly thinks the taliban/ISIL are right and that any one who says otherwise is paying lipservice is very naive... not least because both muslims are actively engaged in fighting them in afghanistan, iraq, syria etc, plus in the security services in countries like Pakistan

 

[big soft moose]

Oh indeed, I don't see this being solved within the next couple of decades if ever, and that's truly sad

it will never be solved in the history of human endeavour because religion and politics (at a national level) are aliases for power and money