Breaking News: Hostage Situation in Sydney

[gramps]

I'm slightly saddened by this thread. Religion is meant to be a force for good and in many ways it still is, but all we're concentrating on here is a very small number of violent fanaticists who pervert the name of religion for their own ends. As do lots of intolerant atheists with whom I otherwise share a total lack of faith!

Someone has mentioned that the UN should moderate religion. but I'm not sure the self-serving UN is better in any way than the worst power seeking fundamentalists! Look how well it rewards its own powerful men and quangos and how well it rewards the leaders of the secular charities it supports!

In fact there is virtually only one charity in which I have faith [sic] any more. It runs indoctrination schools, it claims to act in the name of God and its members wear military uniforms ... but The Salvation Army is where people are not lining their own pockets out of public donations and aggrandising themselves and where the donations are actually spent doing the greatest possible charitable good!

'Religion' is just a set of beliefs, you could form a new religion tomorrow based on your personal beliefs, in time you might even get recognition and charity status ... you could even claim to represent God, but would that be true?
Many atheists feel the way they do because of the hypocrisy they see in religious groups who claim to represent God but behave in an ungodly way.
Gandhi, in India is reported to have discussed the value of Christianity (note, not 'religion') with the then Viceroy of India ...

Lord Irwin asked Gandhi what he thought would solve the problems between Great Britain and India. Gandhi picked up a Bible and opened it to the fifth chapter of Matthew and said: “When your country and mine shall get together on the teachings laid down by Christ in this Sermon on the Mount, we shall have solved the problems not only of our countries but those of the whole world.”

Whether you believe in God or the bible, what Gandhi said was true ... it is not what you claim, it is what you do and how you behave, especially toward others. When asked what was the greatest commandment Jesus responded that 1st was to love God and 2nd to love your neighbour; many 'religions' would do well to remind themselves of that.

 

[Yv]

'Religion' is just a set of beliefs, you could form a new religion tomorrow based on your personal beliefs, in time you might even get recognition and charity status ... you could even claim to represent God, but would that be true?

Our next door neighbour, now in her 80's, many years ago with her husband, they 'formed' their own Christian religion - all the regular stuff, plus a belief in an afterlife that was the point around which it all revolved. They believe in reincarnation in effect, except not back into 'our world', but a 'better' place. So, on alternative Sundays when the prayer meetings are at her house, we struggle to get on and off our driveway for a couple of hours while they are all at their prayer meeting - their minds possibly on higher things seems to leave them incapable of parking a car properly. In summer when the windows are open, we hear the tinkling of a bell, interspersed with voices and times of silence.
Now, I make no pretence of understanding why they felt the need to take this road [the theological one, not the one we live on] or want to know the exact nature of it and whether it has any official recognition as a Religion - but what I do know is that the lady is one of the nicest neighbours we have, she really is what @Yves Geza described as a 'force for good' without ever being preaching at anyone. Even now in her 80's she would do anything she can to help people just because she wants to, not because she wants to use it as an opportunity to lecture them about how they should be living their lives and really does sum up your point of it's not what you claim, it is what you do and how you behave.

 

[MWHCVT]

Our next door neighbour, now in her 80's, many years ago with her husband, they 'formed' their own Christian religion - all the regular stuff, plus a belief in an afterlife that was the point around which it all revolved. They believe in reincarnation in effect, except not back into 'our world', but a 'better' place. So, on alternative Sundays when the prayer meetings are at her house, we struggle to get on and off our driveway for a couple of hours while they are all at their prayer meeting - their minds possibly on higher things seems to leave them incapable of parking a car properly. In summer when the windows are open, we hear the tinkling of a bell, interspersed with voices and times of silence.
Now, I make no pretence of understanding why they felt the need to take this road [the theological one, not the one we live on] or want to know the exact nature of it and whether it has any official recognition as a Religion - but what I do know is that the lady is one of the nicest neighbours we have, she really is what @Yves Geza described as a 'force for good' without ever being preaching at anyone. Even now in her 80's she would do anything she can to help people just because she wants to, not because she wants to use it as an opportunity to lecture them about how they should be living their lives and really does sum up your point of it's not what you claim, it is what you do and how you behave.

That bit about not lecturing to people reminded me of a caller from Northern Ireland I had once when I was as phone jockey for a credit card company, who decided to try and convert me to the path of the Jehovah's Witness while on a call where she had called to discuss here account, I don't even know how we went from talking about her account to religion

 

[gramps]

Our next door neighbour, now in her 80's, many years ago with her husband, they 'formed' their own Christian religion - all the regular stuff, plus a belief in an afterlife that was the point around which it all revolved. They believe in reincarnation in effect, except not back into 'our world', but a 'better' place. So, on alternative Sundays when the prayer meetings are at her house, we struggle to get on and off our driveway for a couple of hours while they are all at their prayer meeting - their minds possibly on higher things seems to leave them incapable of parking a car properly. In summer when the windows are open, we hear the tinkling of a bell, interspersed with voices and times of silence.
Now, I make no pretence of understanding why they felt the need to take this road [the theological one, not the one we live on] or want to know the exact nature of it and whether it has any official recognition as a Religion - but what I do know is that the lady is one of the nicest neighbours we have, she really is what @Yves Geza described as a 'force for good' without ever being preaching at anyone. Even now in her 80's she would do anything she can to help people just because she wants to, not because she wants to use it as an opportunity to lecture them about how they should be living their lives and really does sum up your point of it's not what you claim, it is what you do and how you behave.

There are a multitude of people out there Yv who are nice neighbours, thoughtful people, people who don't do any harm to anyone and who help others where and when they can ... and that is to be lauded.
It's a nod to that 2nd commandment Jesus gave (love your neighbour), though many would have nothing of Jesus and just put it down to practicing common decency.
However the 1st commandment that Jesus gave (love God) was 1st for a reason ... true love for God means that all of these other things will follow, because one who loves God knows that's exactly how God wants him/her to treat others, (though of course we will never be able to do this perfectly).
Mind you there is a lot more to love of God than just being loving toward your neighbour ... Jesus told his disciples what he wanted them to do and foremost was spreading the gospel or 'good news' to others ... I guess "preaching at anyone"

Jesus came and spoke these words to them, “All power in Heaven and on earth has been given to me. You, then, are to go and make disciples of all the nations and baptise them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Teach them to observe all that I have commanded you and, remember, I am with you always, even to the end of the world.”

Matthew 28:19,20

I guess that if 'Christendom' had practiced this rather than embarking on crusades to subdue others, the situation today might be somewhat different, who knows

 

[andya700]

I'm slightly saddened by this thread. Religion is meant to be a force for good and in many ways it still is, but all we're concentrating on here is a very small number of violent fanaticists who pervert the name of religion for their own ends. As do lots of intolerant atheists with whom I otherwise share a total lack of faith!

The only reason why I am saddened by this thread, is because of the events (on a very small scale in Australia, carried out by a raving lunatic) in the original post, and the horrific tragedy in Pakistan, which was carried out by people who had been schooled to behave in such a fashion.
With regard to "religion is meant to be a force for good" - this is something which we are constantly hearing, from devotees and religious leaders of all religions. However, what is meant to be and what actually happens in the real World are two very different things. I was brought up a Catholic, my wife a Muslim, and both our families are what I suppose you would call "moderate". The fact is though, both of us are now agnostic/atheist, because of the things we have been through and the suffering we have witnessed because of religion.
I wish that you were right about the "very small number of violent fanatisists", and you may well be if you are talking about extremism in the UK, but if you are talking about Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, Syria, Somalia, Sudan, Nigeria, then you are talking very large numbers of radicalised young men, who have been schooled from an early age in Madrassas (religious schools). They are taught in these Madrassas, that anything which is linked to the West is evil and must be destroyed, which includes progressive education (which is sacrificed to make way for Wahhabi Sunni religious teachings), and of course, it also means that girls/women are excluded from education, and later in life from having jobs, being involved in politics.
The Madrassas are funded largely by Saudi Arabia and other Gulf States, and the Wahhabism which it teaches, is totally intolerant of ALL other religions, and also other branches of Islam such as Shia.
So to the last point which I have highlighted.
You talk about "intolerant atheists", and I agree they do exist, but is there a school in the UK/US/Europe which teaches pupils to hate all religious people, and to further encourage the pupils to kill the religious people if they do not convert to atheism?