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gramps said:
An interesting read Yv all the more so to me is the "once religion becomes a matter of love of God rather than hatred of our political and social situation, we can begin to extract our communities from the hole which we have dug for ourselves’" and I can't see that ever happening because for most religious groups 'god' is merely a symbol of their preferred way of life ... if indeed 'god' has any affect on their life whatsoever.
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indeed, so often it seems that 'God' is merely a hook onto which a coat may be hung. There is also the problem that many 'cultural' acts have been absorbed into a religion, and vice versa, creating an entire way of life so totally intertwined it is difficult to extract one from the other and ergo view each and either with a dispassionate or critical eye.
 
big soft moose said:
it will never be solved in the history of human endeavour because religion and politics (at a national level) are aliases for power and money
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Indeed and then we also have science and you can never satisfy all three ;) all of the time...

I say ban religion, shoot the politicians and let the scientists rule the world :woot:
 
Yv said:
indeed, so often it seems that 'God' is merely a hook onto which a coat may be hung. There is also the problem that many 'cultural' acts have been absorbed into a religion, and vice versa, creating an entire way of life so totally intertwined it is difficult to extract one from the other and ergo view each and either with a dispassionate or critical eye.
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Begs the question, which is more likely, a religious and cultural miracle bringing all religious groups to live peaceably with one another ... or all religion being outlawed?
 
Neither will happen. Destruction of the entire planet is more likely.
 
MWHCVT said:
Indeed and then we also have science and you can never satisfy all three ;) all of the time...

I say ban religion, shoot the politicians and let the scientists rule the world :woot:
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I'm an Atheist, thank God, ( :) )so I'm half way to agreeing with you but.. science has no morality, so politicians are needed to add morality and ethics to decisions based on science.
As an atheist, I just can't see why people who have religious convictions feel that they are entitled to impose their views on other people who don't share them, let alone use violence as a tool - but that is the way it is and the way it has always been.

I don't see an answer, and feel that the nearest thing to an answer has to be to rely on the intelligence services to protect the public against extremists.
 
MWHCVT said:
I say ban religion, shoot the politicians and let the scientists rule the world :woot:
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they'd only start killing each other over who's theory was correct ...
 
@aliamjadrizvi ·
"Don't defend the faith of the victims. Defend the victims of the faith."
 
Garry Edwards said:
I'm an Atheist, thank God, ( :) )so I'm half way to agreeing with you but.. science has no morality, so politicians are needed to add morality and ethics to decisions based on science.
As an atheist, I just can't see why people who have religious convictions feel that they are entitled to impose their views on other people who don't share them, let alone use violence as a tool - but that is the way it is and the way it has always been.

I don't see an answer, and feel that the nearest thing to an answer has to be to rely on the intelligence services to protect the public against extremists.
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Indeed...worrying really when you think that you'd rely on politicians for their good morals :eek:
 
gramps said:
Begs the question, which is more likely, a religious and cultural miracle bringing all religious groups to live peaceably with one another ... or all religion being outlawed?
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Neither. Religion will never be outlawed completely because not ever country is secular to begin with. Mind you, given most countries have laws that have their foundation in the Aesops fables morality tales written in books over a thousand years ago, we are right back to life and religion being intertwined, with politics [and lawyers] chucked in for good measure. Let's face it, we are doomed!
 
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Yv said:
Neither. Religion will never be outlawed completely because not ever country is secular to begin with. Mind you, given most countries have laws that have their foundation in the Aesops fables morality tales written in books over a thousand years ago, we are right back to life and religion being intertwined with politics [and lawyers] chucked in for good measure. Let's face it, we are doomed!
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WE might not be but younger members and the children of parent members could well be.
 
Yv said:
Neither. Religion will never be outlawed completely because not ever country is secular to begin with. Mind you, given most countries have laws that have their foundation in the Aesops fables morality tales written in books over a thousand years ago, we are right back to life and religion being intertwined, with politics [and lawyers] chucked in for good measure. Let's face it, we are doomed!
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I don't share your pessimism Yv, I am sure that religion will be outlawed and then things will really get interesting :)
 
gramps said:
I don't share your pessimism Yv, I am sure that religion will be outlawed and then things will really get interesting :)
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can't see it in our lifetime gramps, too many people too worried about offending too many other people and I hope enough people willing to stand up for our freedoms to chose...in the future though... who knows...
 
The only people who can ban religion are the religious themselves.

You can't externally ban an idea.

That is ludicrous.
 
Yv said:
Thought crime! Though is has to be said, we are dangerously close to that already....
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You may be right, I'm not sure.

I am an atheist and wish all religion would go away.

But I would man the barricades and throw the molotovs in protest against the criminalisation of ideas.
 
they'd only start killing each other over who's theory was correct ...
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I'm undecided as to whether thats strictly correct or not.
The perverted version of Islam seems to be in favour of killing those who are non believers, rather than converting them to the fundamentalist school of thought.
Either way the effect is the same, those who aren't, die.
Then again, when good old Richard 1 went on a spree of rape pillage and killing, pausing only to marry Berengaria and build her a Castle on Cyprus in the name of Christianity that wasn't right either. Yes, I know it was all a very long time ago, different era etc, but I guess in terms of civilized development, some followers of Islam are only still at that stage.
2 wrongs don't make a right, and we are stuck with it, unless true Islam can talk their wayward brothers round. Thats not something I'd hold my breath waiting for.
 
Yv said:
can't see it in our lifetime gramps, too many people too worried about offending too many other people and I hope enough people willing to stand up for our freedoms to chose...in the future though... who knows...
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There is much less tolerance toward religion today Yv, add to that the global threat of extremist terrorism and the excuse for action is there like the touch-paper waiting to be lit. A significant number of Governments already outlaw or actively discourage religion in anything other than strictly 'state-approved' versions ... I don't think it will be too long before any desire not to offend will make way to the desire to remove the issue.
 
Yv said:
Neither. Religion will never be outlawed completely because not ever country is secular to begin with. Mind you, given most countries have laws that have their foundation in the Aesops fables morality tales written in books over a thousand years ago, we are right back to life and religion being intertwined, with politics [and lawyers] chucked in for good measure. Let's face it, we are doomed!
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banning religion is a bad idea anyway - the communists tried that with both christianity and islam, and all they achieved was to drive it underground, thus making it a rallying point for those who felt oppressed or rebelious
 
Yv said:
Thought crime! Though is has to be said, we are dangerously close to that already....
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may be we need moderators ;)
 
Yv said:
. Let's face it, we are doomed!
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:runaway:
Yv said:
Thought crime! Though is has to be said, we are dangerously close to that already....
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Didn't the Romans try that a couple of thousand years ago?
That ended badly too :D

big soft moose said:
may be we need moderators ;)
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You may have to explain that a little more,
I can't see how your perceived lack of moderators is responsible for the religious ills of the world. :thinking:
 
I'm certainly not for banning religion.
My big hope would be that humans eventually see that worshipping mythical deities, citing them for all the good and bad in the world and using them as a life crutch makes as much sense as worshipping Harry Potter because he has a funky scar.
It'll take a long long time (sadly), but humans will eventually come to their senses.
 
Cobra said:
:runaway:
You may have to explain that a little more,
I can't see how your perceived lack of moderators is responsible for the religious ills of the world. :thinking:
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On this or indeed most any Forum the moderators keep trouble in check by dealing with trouble makers and malcontents before they can cause any serious issues, what I meant was may be we need Moderators on a global scale to do the same in real life (okay I know thats what the UN alledgedly does , but they arent doing a bang up job of it)

If someone could smite ISIS with a real life ban hammer that would solve a lot of problems (unless of course its an american intercontinetal balistic ban hammer in which case it would cause a lot more than it solves)
 
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big soft moose said:
On this or indeed most any Forum the moderators keep trouble in check by dealing with trouble makers and malcontents before they can cause any serious issues, what I meant was may be we need Moderators on a global scale to do the same in real life (okay I know thats what the UN alledgedly does , but they arent doing a bang up job of it)
If someone could smite ISIS with a real life ban hammer that would solve a lot of problems (unless of course its an american intercontinetal blastic ban hammer in which case it would cause a lot more than it solves)
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Ah I see :)
I guess like us, they also have rules to work by, and can't just take out anyone as they see fit.
Mores the pity in both instances :(
 
the trouble with the UN as global moderator is that Russia and China tend to veto any serious millitary action - hence why increasingly you see Americam and EU troops acting without UN sanction... this is what Russia etc want because they can then use it as a precedent when they act without sanction to go into fir example Donets republic (aka psart of ukraine)
 
big soft moose said:
If someone could smite ISIS with a real life ban hammer that would solve a lot of problems
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The problem with that is, as we have seen in the past, youmanage to disband one fanatical group and another pops up under a different name
it's an age old problem.

One of the best comparisons I saw of the beliefs was that god exists because it says so in a book called The Bible, so therefore
Mr Men must be real as they have loads of books written about them too.
 
OldCarlos said:
Religions were created by man and were to keep the masses/populations in line.
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I think the phrase you are looking for is "the opium of the people" Mr Marx
 
viv1969 said:
I'm certainly not for banning religion.
My big hope would be that humans eventually see that worshipping mythical deities, citing them for all the good and bad in the world and using them as a life crutch makes as much sense as worshipping Harry Potter because he has a funky scar.
It'll take a long long time (sadly), but humans will eventually come to their senses.
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See, I get what you are saying as an agnostic who is almost falling over into the absolute atheist camp, but by the same token, don't necessarily disapprove of anyone having a genuine faith in some 'higher' being/spirit/idea [call it whatever you like]. if it offers that person solace, inspiration, a meaning to their life beyond the norm, then who am I to ridicule that? I generally live by the 'science' logic and I am very happy with that, we live, we procreate and we die, any enjoyment inbetween is merely a bonus born of evolution giving us the power of lucid thought but if you want more then that, fill your boots [though please make sure it is your own boots, please don't come knocking on my door wanting to fill mine too]. However, what I object to, and this has carried across history, it sure as hell isn't a modern thing, is bloodshed in the name of religion. Organised religion has probably been used as excuse for more human death than any other single cause - I say probably given the numbers of wars based around religious beliefs or done with a tie in to them, against those just over territory or other disagreements. I could be wrong, but even if it's not, it would still be right up there near the top of the table.
 
Yv said:
Organised religion has probably been used as excuse for more human death than any other single cause - I say probably given the numbers of wars based around religious beliefs or done with a tie in to them, against those just over territory or other disagreements. I could be wrong, but even if it's not, it would still be right up there near the top of the table.
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thing is its the excuse not the cause - take the crusades for example, its painted as taking the holy lands back from the heathen but in reality its a land grab pure and simple - you've got a bunch of second and third sons who arent going to inherit in europe going to the middleast to carve out estates for themselves in the name of gawd , take away the religion and they'd have found another excuse
 
viv1969 said:
I'm certainly not for banning religion.
My big hope would be that humans eventually see that worshipping mythical deities, citing them for all the good and bad in the world and using them as a life crutch makes as much sense as worshipping Harry Potter because he has a funky scar.
It'll take a long long time (sadly), but humans will eventually come to their senses.
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I think, and I mean this in no offensive way to religious people, that religion is base part of peoples make up.

Think about it. Every ancient society from the Egyptians, Greeks, Aztecs, Chinese. Indians etc all had some sort of religion, or belief of a) an afterlife b) a higher being in which to worship c)the world was created by a higher being. Remember, people didn't move around the world much so these all evolved independently in ancient times.

I suspect people used it, and still do, to validate themselves as having a purpose, other than to live and die, and as a coping method for death and to try and rationalise where they and the world they came in came from. Rather than just accept they are here, this is where they live for a bit, then you die. People, by nature need to know, why and religion is a device thought up to try and give the answer why?

Without being too unkind on religion, it's also given humans a code of law, conduct and moral standards and a way to give themselves a framework. Live a bad life, god will punish you. Live a good life and behave, go to heaven.
 
Religion will be different things to different people ... a joke, an irritation, an excuse, a crutch ... or to some a way of life based on faith.
Steve mentions a law code and moral code and it has of course provided that but is it just "Live a bad life, god will punish you. Live a good life and behave, go to heaven"?
It might be for someone who doesn't really have faith but for one who has faith it is far beyond that and stems from what the Telegraph article stated was needed i.e. a love of God.
If someone loves God he/she does things that they know God will find pleasing and which will evidence their belief and hence the rightfulness of God's ways and standards.
Someone who claims belief in God yet engages in acts like that in Peshawar dishonours God and every bad act done 'in the name of God' further alienates people from him because it falsely represents him.
 
gramps said:
If someone loves God he/she does things that they know God will find pleasing and which will evidence their belief and hence the rightfulness of God's ways and standards.
Someone who claims belief in God yet engages in acts like that in Peshawar dishonours God and every bad act done 'in the name of God' further alienates people from him because it falsely represents him.
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which is fine except that the nutters who did peshawar would say that they were acting as they knew allah would find pleasing by striking a blow against the heretic government islamabad (or something) ... wew might think that reasoning is abhorent and wrong , but they don't care what we think.

the long game here is to provoke Pakastani security forces into coming down tighter on average man in the street muslims , thus eventually provoking a popular support for a coup... and pakistan has atomic arms , so a fundamentalist govt there would not be a good day out.
 
Yv said:
See, I get what you are saying as an agnostic who is almost falling over into the absolute atheist camp, but by the same token, don't necessarily disapprove of anyone having a genuine faith in some 'higher' being/spirit/idea [call it whatever you like]. if it offers that person solace, inspiration, a meaning to their life beyond the norm, then who am I to ridicule that? I generally live by the 'science' logic and I am very happy with that, we live, we procreate and we die, any enjoyment inbetween is merely a bonus born of evolution giving us the power of lucid thought but if you want more then that, fill your boots [though please make sure it is your own boots, please don't come knocking on my door wanting to fill mine too]. However, what I object to, and this has carried across history, it sure as hell isn't a modern thing, is bloodshed in the name of religion. Organised religion has probably been used as excuse for more human death than any other single cause - I say probably given the numbers of wars based around religious beliefs or done with a tie in to them, against those just over territory or other disagreements. I could be wrong, but even if it's not, it would still be right up there near the top of the table.
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Pretty much covers exactly my feelings on the subject of religion :thumbs:
 
I believe God is your conscience.

The problem is..... the majority of the b'sturds performing these atrocities don't have a conscience!
They are indoctrinated/brainwashed by so-called religious leaders (who incidentally don't often perform suicide themselves) to perform acts of violence in the name of their religion so they can enter heaven/nirvana....

I understand some folk may need the solace/comfort of beliefs & religion & the rules that they live by, which is fine imo.
Everyone should live their lives as they see fit............as long as it doesn't adversely affect/hurt others.
 
Yes, they are using religion as an excuse ... despite the popular belief that there is 'only one god', in reality people 'make' gods to suit their own purposes, just as surely as they used to carve them in wood or stone and bow down to them.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I'm an Atheist, thank God, ( :) )so I'm half way to agreeing with you but.. science has no morality, so politicians are needed to add morality and ethics to decisions based on science.
As an atheist, I just can't see why people who have religious convictions feel that they are entitled to impose their views on other people who don't share them, let alone use violence as a tool - but that is the way it is and the way it has always been.

I don't see an answer, and feel that the nearest thing to an answer has to be to rely on the intelligence services to protect the public against extremists.
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What happens when the politicians are so often influenced by religion?
 
OldCarlos said:
I believe God is your conscience.

The problem is..... the majority of the b'sturds performing these atrocities don't have a conscience!
They are indoctrinated/brainwashed by so-called religious leaders (who incidentally don't often perform suicide themselves) to perform acts of violence in the name of their religion so they can enter heaven/nirvana....

I understand some folk may need the solace/comfort of beliefs & religion & the rules that they live by, which is fine imo.
Everyone should live their lives as they see fit............as long as it doesn't adversely affect/hurt others.
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This is the most important aspect of creating radical extremism IMO.
The leaders of the Madrassas in most cases will always ignore religion in favour of preaching hatred towards the West.
The reason for this is simple. It is because the West is democratic, something which goes against the teachings of radical Islam.
If you listen to radical Islamic preachers then they will say that Democracy is Incompatible with Islam.
We have radical preachers in the UK, and they are encouraging young, Muslim people to hate our culture, and join up to the Islamic fight against us.
 
I'm slightly saddened by this thread. Religion is meant to be a force for good and in many ways it still is, but all we're concentrating on here is a very small number of violent fanaticists who pervert the name of religion for their own ends. As do lots of intolerant atheists with whom I otherwise share a total lack of faith!

Someone has mentioned that the UN should moderate religion. but I'm not sure the self-serving UN is better in any way than the worst power seeking fundamentalists! Look how well it rewards its own powerful men and quangos and how well it rewards the leaders of the secular charities it supports!

In fact there is virtually only one charity in which I have faith [sic] any more. It runs indoctrination schools, it claims to act in the name of God and its members wear military uniforms ... but The Salvation Army is where people are not lining their own pockets out of public donations and aggrandising themselves and where the donations are actually spent doing the greatest possible charitable good!
 
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