Apple Refusing Court Order to Unlock Killer's iPhone

dejongj said:
Speaking to many of my European counterparts and colleagues they do not understand why we tolerate it here in the UK.
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We seem to tolerate a lot of things that our European counterparts don't / won't.
The British mentality bemuses me TBH I think our heads are still largely in the Empire days.

sphexx said:
However, when the People were offered a limited improvement in the voting system (STV referendum) they rejected it overwhelmingly.
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The general population and of course some parties still bitch about the voting system, so I don't get it either
did it (STV) take place in a parallel universe and we only assumed it happened?

jakeblu said:
Still I can't help worry for my children and grandchildren.
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The problem as I see it, as another grumpy old git, we remember the pre-tech years and are slightly suspicious of it,
"The Children" have have been bought up with it, its part of their daily lives, its all around them, and ( rightly or wrongly) think nothing of it.
 
Byker28i said:
You mention the ira bombings, yet exactly the same arguments you use were then used about the ring of cameras and numberplate detection systems put in around London as a response. Now these are normal and you think nothing about them.
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Do you mean "I" think nothing about them? If so, how do you make that assumption? The world moved on and a wholly different dynamic exists. After the Bombings in the City of London and Canary Wharf, the impetus for a solution to the "Irish" question became very financial.

Normal? Define normal in a country that is likely to to have the highest number of CCTV coverage in the developed world.

In terms of my life, apart from the few times when conversations like this thread generates sometimes varied themes, I just go on with my life. I live without paranoia but I do question the motives of politicians and their assumptions that we, the people, fully support one theme or the other. In my 60 plus years of life I choose not to fear the future and I (hopefully) can look back on all my experiences with a wry smile and move on in my own minimal impact way. Normal? What is normal? If it means accepting the wave of directed BS floating around then no I will always ask the simple suff,

1. Who is telling me something?
2. What are they telling me?
3. What do they want from me?

After that I find I can ignore it.
 
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dod said:
Pretty much. I wouldn't trust apple any further than the government and probably a good bit less. They're already using the data they collect on your "secure" phone for their own purposes so why not do some good in this instance.
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So, how do you explain why they've freely given access to the Cloud account...

Totally rational explanation... NOT!

Seriously there are people who are happier to jump to a conclusion of not trusting large corporations no matter how utterly stupid the basis, rather than just accepting the more rational truth.
 
Phil V said:
So, how do you explain why they've freely given access to the Cloud account...

Totally rational explanation... NOT!

Seriously there are people who are happier to jump to a conclusion of not trusting large corporations no matter how utterly stupid the basis, rather than just accepting the more rational truth.
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They don't want to be totally obstructive. It's not that difficult to work out.

Seriously there are people who are happier to jump to a conclusion of trusting large corporations no matter how utterly stupid the basis, rather than just accepting the more rational truth
 
Just noticed this, I'll copy and paste as you have to wait 15 seconds for the page to load:

FBI asks U2 how they managed to get into everyone’s iPhone
Oscar De BoerFebruary 18, 2016
The FBI has asked for help from Irish band U2 to help get into a locked iPhone, as they seemed to manage it without a problem.

FBI spokesperson, Frank Hanratty has personally asked for help from Bono and the rest of the gang to break into the iPhone of a terrorist in the US after Apple refused to help them break into iPhones, citing privacy issues.

‘We wanted to ask Bono and the rest of U2 for help with this, because they managed to get into everyone’s iPhones without asking anyone’s permission.’

He added:

‘Plus, not only did they manage to somehow break into and insert their own software onto millions of iPhones, they also made it very difficult to remove the offending piece of ‘music’, so these guys really are the experts here’.

Bfnn tried to reach Bono for comment but U2 are said to be unavailable at this time because they are furiously tapping at keyboards and occasionally saying ‘I’m in’.

From:
http://www.bfnn.co.uk/fbi-asks-u2-how-they-managed-to-get-into-everyones-iphone/
 
12728996_10153990693153436_903321472816413655_n.jpg
 
I have a new favourite word! :D
 
Nod said:
I have a new favourite word! :D
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Same here - have already used it to good effect - left my PIA neighbour 'gobsmacked and speechless' ☺
 
Wankpuffin priceless
 
'Wankpuffin' That's Jackspeak! , it's been used by sailors for years. The forces have their own vocabulary, it's not always appreciated by civilians but It won't be lost amongst you that a Puffin is a seabird. That is all.
 
They should just give it to Abby Sciuto.
Job done. :D
 
Wouldn't it be ironic if that phone contained info of a terrorist attack on Apple's HQ ???
 
Steve B said:
Wouldn't it be ironic if that phone contained info of a terrorist attack on Apple's HQ ???
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Only if the attack happened before the information was retrieved.
 
sphexx said:
If Apple can and does comply with a US gov request then they will find it impossible to refuse a Russian or Chinese gov request. Many people seem to think we should not be worried about our personal information being revealed but the real problem is how to secure business/manufacturing/political etc information,
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This is one of my main concerns. If we change "US Govt request" to "Chinese Govt request", would people still feel the same way?
 
sphexx said:
If Apple can and does comply with a US gov request then they will find it impossible to refuse a Russian or Chinese gov request.
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So, back to my thought experiment where Apple have fought this all the way up to the Supreme Court and lost. Nobody has suggested that, in those circumstances, they should not comply.

Then Apple's subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever> receives a similar request. They fight it all the way up to the <Chinese/Russian/whatever> equivalent of the Supreme Court, and they lose. Logically in those circumstances they should comply.

Anyone care to disagree, with your reasoning?

Of course this might be a moot point if Apple doesn't have a subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever>. Or would it? I don't know enough about the law to work that out.
 
StewartR said:
So, back to my thought experiment where Apple have fought this all the way up to the Supreme Court and lost. Nobody has suggested that, in those circumstances, they should not comply.

Then Apple's subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever> receives a similar request. They fight it all the way up to the <Chinese/Russian/whatever> equivalent of the Supreme Court, and they lose. Logically in those circumstances they should comply.

Anyone care to disagree, with your reasoning?

Of course this might be a moot point if Apple doesn't have a subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever>. Or would it? I don't know enough about the law to work that out.
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I thought that Putin had already banned iPhone in Russia because of Tim Cook being gay.

If Apple do free up the phone for the FBI I guarantee that there will be useful information on it because the FBU will put it there.

Another interesting scenario is that FBI are asking for something that probably has not been done before (because why would Apple have needed to do it) and it is entirely possible that Apple will brick the phone accidentally - I mean really accidentally - what happens then?
 
StewartR said:
So, back to my thought experiment where Apple have fought this all the way up to the Supreme Court and lost. Nobody has suggested that, in those circumstances, they should not comply.

Then Apple's subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever> receives a similar request. They fight it all the way up to the <Chinese/Russian/whatever> equivalent of the Supreme Court, and they lose. Logically in those circumstances they should comply.

Anyone care to disagree, with your reasoning?

Of course this might be a moot point if Apple doesn't have a subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever>. Or would it? I don't know enough about the law to work that out.
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Whatever country they are trading in, they should obey the law in that country, as should the rest of us. If you ignore American anti-Chinese propaganda, the Chinese government is every bit as trustworthy as the USA government.
 
StewartR said:
So, back to my thought experiment where Apple have fought this all the way up to the Supreme Court and lost. Nobody has suggested that, in those circumstances, they should not comply.

Then Apple's subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever> receives a similar request. They fight it all the way up to the <Chinese/Russian/whatever> equivalent of the Supreme Court, and they lose. Logically in those circumstances they should comply.

Anyone care to disagree, with your reasoning?

Of course this might be a moot point if Apple doesn't have a subsidiary which is incorporated in <China/Russia/wherever>. Or would it? I don't know enough about the law to work that out.
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Short answer; yes, ofcourse.
 
john.margetts said:
Whatever country they are trading in, they should obey the law in that country, as should the rest of us. If you ignore American anti-Chinese propaganda, the Chinese government is every bit as trustworthy as the USA government.
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Really, so the bad human rights record is purely down to American anti Chinese propaganda. Hmmm I beg to differ.
 
dejongj said:
Really, so the bad human rights record is purely down to American anti Chinese propaganda. Hmmm I beg to differ.
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China has poor human rights and so does the USA. The USA has nearly 7 times as many of its population in prison than China does which makes China much the freer place.
 
john.margetts said:
China has poor human rights and so does the USA. The USA has nearly 7 times as many of its population in prison than China does which makes China much the freer place.
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We're not a shining example either.
So easy to point fingers elsewhere.
 
No, we're not a shining example (though better than both USA and China) but I was responding to the post above that asked if we accepted Apple obeying the USA government would we also accept them obeying the Chinese government which implies (incorrectly) that China is significantly worse than the USA. I wanted to correct that implication.
 
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john.margetts said:
No, we're not a shining example (though better than both USA and China) but I was responding to the post above that asked if we accepted Apple obeying the USA government would we also accept them obeying the Chinese government which implies (incorrectly) that China is significantly worse than the USA. I wanted to correct that implication.
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But you said it was down to anti China propaganda, now you are saying something different...
 
dejongj said:
But you said it was down to anti China propaganda, now you are saying something different...
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No I didn't. I said we need to discount USA propaganda and not just assume China is worse.
 
And so it continues, seven more demands have been made of Apple. I'm all up for intelligence work, but come on at least do it your self, don't demand that another legal entity is forced to do the government job.
 
dejongj said:
And so it continues, seven more demands have been made of Apple. I'm all up for intelligence work, but come on at least do it your self, don't demand that another legal entity is forced to do the government job.
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Yeah, you're right. And they should get Crimewatch off the TV because the police should be finding these criminals, not asking the public for help. And mountain rescue services are run by volunteers because the 'proper' emergency services don't do their jobs properly - that should stop too.
 
StewartR said:
Yeah, you're right. And they should get Crimewatch off the TV because the police should be finding these criminals, not asking the public for help. And mountain rescue services are run by volunteers because the 'proper' emergency services don't do their jobs properly - that should stop too.
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Asking for help is not the same as forcing people to change their products and make them less secure. A huge difference.
 
dejongj said:
Asking for help is not the same as forcing people to change their products and make them less secure. A huge difference.
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Calm down. You're misinterpreting the position on so many different levels.

For starters nobody is being forced to do anything. The FBI have applied for a court order, which may or may not be granted. And I think we all agree that the courts *do* have the power to order people and companies to take, or refrain from taking, certain actions.

Secondly, if the court does so order, Apple has been asked to circumvent the security mechanism on this specific iPhone. The FBI has asked for assistance which would be effective on this specific phone only. To my mind it's analogous to asking a safe manufacturer to break open a specific safe.

Nobody apart from you is talking about Apple being required to change the products they offer for sale. But even if they were, that's a perfectly reasonable thing for courts to do. Want to make and sell a new range of Polonium-210 teabags? You might find "they" won't let you. No surprise there, to most of us.
 
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