Apple Refusing Court Order to Unlock Killer's iPhone

KitsuneAndy said:
I don't have an iPhone, so someone here might be able to answer this:

If there's an IOS update, can it be pushed to the phone without the user confirming it on the phone? And if the phone is locked, can this be confirmed without putting in the pin code?

If it requires the pin to flash the firmware, then I can't see how apple could actually do it without resorting to extremely expensive and "unreasonable" measures.
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No. You have to accept the update and sign that you have read the t&cs.
 
Its all fluff and PR flannel from Apple and I find it quite sickening to be honest.
They are just promoting there perfectness on the back of the FBI.
Apple have a lot to answer for over the years and here they have the perfect opportunity to show they could step up and help and the best they can do is hire 900 lawyers.

What a poor show apple.
regardless of the tech, apple could get that phone in a secure lab and take it apart with there tools and job done.
if they then wanted to they could introduce a patch next day to render the access method null and void.

they are just postering tossers.
 
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Mr Bump said:
Its all fluff and PR flannel from Apple and I find it quite sickening to be honest.
They are just promoting there perfectness on the back of the FBI.
Apple have a lot to answer for over the years and here they have the perfect opportunity to show they could step up and help and the best they can do is hire 900 lawyers.

What a poor show apple.
regardless of the tech, apple could get that phone in a secure lab and take it apart with there tools and job done.
if they then wanted to they could introduce a patch next day to render the access method null and void.

they are just postering tossers.
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What would they do to it once it was taken apart? The data would still be encrypted.
 
KitsuneAndy said:
What would they do to it once it was taken apart? The data would still be encrypted.
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Try actually reading what the FBI are asking for and not concentrating on the work encryption and the b******t that apple are feeding you.
 
Mr Bump said:
Try actually reading what the FBI are asking for and not concentrating on the work encryption and the b******t that apple are feeding you.
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I have, and I don't see what taking it apart will do, in fact, that will almost certainly remove any attempts to access the data since the encryption key is generated using codes specific to the hardware.

If you dismantle it, you might be able to read the UID from the silicon with an electron microscope. But I doubt Apple have one of them sitting about.
 
The FBI have asked for this, nothing more.


What Apple have said is they cannot overcome the encryption however I think they can overcome the password/wipe after 10 goes so the FBI can brute force the phone. Also they have asked apple for a better method of entering the passcode rather than manually.

given its a 4 digit pin there are only 10,000 combinations.
 
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Mr Bump said:
given its a 4 digit pin there are only 10,000 combinations.
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You can use alpha numeric or longer numeric codes with an iPhone if 4 digit isn't secure enough for you.
 
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Mr Bump said:
Try actually reading what the FBI are asking for and not concentrating on the work encryption and the b******t that apple are feeding you.
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personally ive read a lot of BS from apple over the years but through all that i see their point on this one.

its a dangerous precedent. in a world where governments are taking a very worrying stance over users right to personal privacy.
 
Mr Bump said:
Apple have asked for this, nothing more.


What Apple have said is they cannot overcome the encryption however I think they can overcome the password/wipe after 10 goes so the FBI can brute force the phone. Also they have asked apple for a better method of entering the passcode rather than manually.

given its a 4 digit pin there are only 10,000 combinations.
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And what the FBI have asked for, may still not be possible, because if you can't update the firmware without the PIN, they might not be able to change the crypto engine to overcome the 10 tries.

It might be possible, certainly as it's an older phone. I think the newer iPhones would be more resistant because the Secure Enclave is on a separate chip not attached to the operating system.
 
Mr Bump said:
Its all fluff and PR flannel from Apple and I find it quite sickening to be honest.
They are just promoting there perfectness on the back of the FBI.
Apple have a lot to answer for over the years and here they have the perfect opportunity to show they could step up and help and the best they can do is hire 900 lawyers.

What a poor show apple.
regardless of the tech, apple could get that phone in a secure lab and take it apart with there tools and job done.
if they then wanted to they could introduce a patch next day to render the access method null and void.

they are just postering tossers.
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Got to love how you know all that from your armchair. It must be wonderful to be so certain about thing in live. Or are you ;)
 
Only read a little on this but I think apple are doing the right thing here.
 
Storm in a tea cup Apple will with either assist voluntarily or have to comply with the Court Order or face the consequences.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Storm in a tea cup Apple will with either assist voluntarily or have to comply with the Court Order or face the consequences.
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i see trump has also waded in on the argument.

wonder what will happen if he becomes president too, with his everything must be USA made. i can see a pee'd off apple getting even more annoyed.
 
neil_g said:
i see trump has also waded in on the argument.

wonder what will happen if he becomes president too, with his everything must be USA made. i can see a pee'd off apple getting even more annoyed.
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Well it's just common sense ! Apple need to wake up to the fact and not get in a strop.

If there is evidence on the phone then the Court are obliged to hear it. As I pointed out earlier forensic evidence is not only there to prove or disprove an offence but also to eliminate innocent parties from the offence.

This really is nothing new. Both Android and iPhones are regularly seized in the USA and UK and lawfully searched for evidence. This is common practice in investigations. To think otherwise is just plain naive. This does does not suddenly mean that every man and dog can suddenly have the right to access other people's phones. It's never going to happen !!
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Well it's just common sense ! Apple need to wake up to the fact and not get in a strop.

If there is evidence on the phone then the Court are obliged to hear it. As I pointed out earlier forensic evidence is not only there to prove or disprove an offence but also to eliminate innocent parties from the offence.

This really is nothing new. Both Android and iPhones are regularly seized in the USA and UK and lawfully searched for evidence. This is common practice in investigations. To think otherwise is just plain naive. This does does not suddenly mean that every man and dog can suddenly have the right to access other people's phones. It's never going to happen !!
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at the risk of going around in circles a bit, previously a company has not been asked to fundamentally break the secure aspect of their product.

and you have no way of saying this program will NEVER get into the wrong hands/be mis-used.
 
like to see apples stance when Jobs ends up in prision on obstructing justice charges.
 
Mr Bump said:
like to see apples stance when Jobs ends up in prision on obstructing justice charges.
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Be interesting to see who Jobs has defending him in that case!
 
Surely the FBI could test/experiment on other iPhones?

I can't imagine the technology involved is beyond the FBI's capability?
 
I honestly don't see the difference here between being asked to open a safe or a phone. Both are just containers of information with a different locking mechanism. Apple are just being their usual scheister selves and refusing to cooperate.
 
The FBI have been recommending people pay ransomware demands as they don't know what to do about it. I wouldn't let them have anything important!

The whole point of a passcode is it makes it difficult for people to get at a locked phone. What apple haven't said is whether this person was using icloud back up so all the data would be in there. Would it also be encrypted in icloud? If the person has set it to auto wipe after so many incorrect passcode cracking attempts then it's a moot point. Data will be wiped. Default is 10 but there is no reason to assume Mr Terrorist has used 10. They may have changed it to a lower number.
 
dod said:
I honestly don't see the difference here between being asked to open a safe or a phone. Both are just containers of information with a different locking mechanism. Apple are just being their usual scheister selves and refusing to cooperate.
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You're right and when police need to get into safe they call a locksmith !!
 
dod said:
I honestly don't see the difference here between being asked to open a safe or a phone. Both are just containers of information with a different locking mechanism. Apple are just being their usual scheister selves and refusing to cooperate.
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Sorry Dod thats a poor analogy, breaking into someones safe to retrieve information affects only that safe, creating software, built in or otherwise to crack an encrypted phone, could effect the security of every iPhone. Now I realise you Android boys n girls are used to your security being compromised but I like my iPhone locked tight :)

Last comment not meant for you Dod :D
 
I think people on here would feel very differently if there family were directly affected by the actions of this terrorist and the law officials were saying more evidence of accomplaces etc was inside his/her phone.

its all me me me here.
 
jakeblu said:
Now I realise you Android boys n girls are used to your security being compromised but I like my iPhone locked tight :)
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Post was good till that point.... Then slipped into blah blah drone waffle fanboyitis. ;)
 
viv1969 said:
Post was good till that point.... Then slipped into blah blah drone waffle fanboyitis. ;)
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thas cos a lot of the boyz on here are afraid the wifes will find there on grinder
 
jakeblu said:
Sorry Dod thats a poor analogy, breaking into someones safe to retrieve information affects only that safe, creating software, built in or otherwise to crack an encrypted phone, could effect the security of every iPhone. Now I realise you Android boys n girls are used to your security being compromised but I like my iPhone locked tight :)
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Not if it's by asking the manufacturer of the safe for the master key, which they will have.

I use an iphone, can't be doing with android :)
 
Watching and waiting for this to pan out as it has implications for all of us.

I regard myself as both law abiding and a member of my community who values what we as a group can achieve by working together.

That said, I am also a private person. I am careful about sharing my life with strangers and am selective with friends too.

I have chosen to be law abiding but also use strong encryption for my personal data (eg PGP).

I am not interested in whether Apple can or cannot break their own routines/code to enable the FBI to 'release' data that 'may' be on a dead murderer's IPhone. I just do not want them to do it. Take away the emotion of the outrage that occurred and the 'mockrage' of the rhetoric of 'innocent people' have nothing to fear from the state intruding into their privacy, we are left with a simple fact - you have no 'real' right to privacy irrespective of legistation purporting to state otherwise.

So no point in sealing your own boundaries in your life. We have a contract to behave within legislation that has taken hundreds of years to arrive at this point in time, only for the 'terror' that has always existed for millennia, to be unpicked in an instant and for the 'sheeple' to nod it all away.

Sad as the moment may seem in terrorism terms, but more people die from the misuse of alcohol and tobacco daily, poor food choices and congenital health conditions daily than die in terrorist atrocities.

We give away our rights and entitlements at our own risk. The uber-rich will continue to wrap theiŕ lives in protective layers so will not be affected.

Life is not the 'reality' that the Daily Mail promote through fear, misinformation and lies.

Yes, I have seen 'terrorism' up close. I was close by the Old Bailey bomb, and I walked past a car bomb which was parked near Selfridges in London in the 1970s, which exploded less than 2 minutes after I walked past it. At no time did I feel that I wanted my privacy invaded or protection of my privacy removed. My part of the societal contract is not to break the rules, which I do not. The activities of a minority should not be used as an excuse to set aside our rights to privacy.
 
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Blank_Canvas said:
That you are aware of !!
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apple have helped the gov in the past but not on this level. remember the FBI have the icloud backups from the device up to a few weeks of the terror attack.

Mr Bump said:
like to see apples stance when Jobs ends up in prision on obstructing justice charges.
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Mr Bump said:
I think people on here would feel very differently if there family were directly affected by the actions of this terrorist and the law officials were saying more evidence of accomplaces etc was inside his/her phone.

its all me me me here.
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Mr Bump said:
thas cos a lot of the boyz on here are afraid the wifes will find there on grinder
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so you have any sensible points to add?
 
@neil_g nope nothing much to add at all all which is in line with most of the posts here which generally say "most people don't care about terrorism as it doesn't bother or affect them".

Well it bothers me if someone takes the life of another through no reason and we should use all our collective resources to root it out as working as a team all this nonsense would be over.

or we could just hide in a copper cage with our tin foil hats on like @Hugh Jarse
 
Mr Bump said:
@neil_g nope nothing much to add at all all which is in line with most of the posts here which generally say "most people don't care about terrorism as it doesn't bother or affect them".

Well it bothers me if someone takes the life of another through no reason and we should use all our collective resources to root it out as working as a team all this nonsense would be over.

or we could just hide in a copper cage with our tin foil hats on like @Hugh Jarse
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Don't mistake a pragmatic viewpoint with the wearing of a 'tin foil' hat, all you do is reveal your own foolishness and twee mockery of others reveals more about you as a personality.

I am no 'enemy of the state' and have worked in areas of government that require close scrutinity of my personal life before being employed. I have also worked in 'tempest' protected areas, it was enlightening.

I am a realist and many people give away their whole lives on Social Media, I choose not to.

Information is, and always has been, valuable. Value yours.
 
viv1969 said:
Post was good till that point.... Then slipped into blah blah drone waffle fanboyitis. ;)
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Fair point, it wasn't meant as a fanboy post, but more of a humorous one. Clearly I missed the target :)
 
I'm not a techs kind of person nor am I trying to be provocative but if Apple or any other manufacturer make phones or devices that are, for want of a better word impregnable, then they should all be taken off the market as it's just providing a means to the terrorists or other criminals to be beyond the law and able to do what the hell they like without recriminations.
Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty scary!
I don't feel the issue here is about protecting personal data, more the ability to bring someone who's clearly dangerous to justice.
 
wardy07 said:
I'm not a techs kind of person nor am I trying to be provocative but if Apple or any other manufacturer make phones or devices that are, for want of a better word impregnable, then they should all be taken off the market as it's just providing a means to the terrorists or other criminals to be beyond the law and able to do what the hell they like without recriminations.
Just my opinion, but I think it's pretty scary!
I don't feel the issue here is about protecting personal data, more the ability to bring someone who's clearly dangerous to justice.
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The personal data protection is the main issue. Once the technology crack genie is out of the bottle it will never be put back, as Neil G has pointed out in earlier posts.

Simply put, once the methodology to break Apple's security technology is achieved, if it can be, and, a court order sets a precedent to make it happen is granted the yet another aspect of security and privacy is gone.

The clear and present danger issue has always existed, all that has evolved is the availability of communications technology which is driving an ever increasing 'convergence' of differing technologies to a point that smart devices are getting more advanced that the blurring of comms/proximity purchase/broadcast/info share/cloud data storgage/bio recognition/visual recogntition/HD video /Megapixel stills/text/banking etc - all in one handheld unit will require ever more protection modelling. It is not just privacy per se but identity/financial protection too.

It may require bio-recognition additional protection processes too.

In the case of the IPhone in question, it's owner/user has 'received' justice, 9mm/.44 style. The understandable FBI requirement is to close other leads to those who may be about to murder others. I accept that may be the case but, for me, and others, the price of loss of privacy is a step too far.
 
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