Any space/time travel/alien/creationist/theorist, nerds out there?

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Lunaticsamurai said:
But that is flawed, like most of the bible and religious accounts.

The reason Christians quote that verse is in order to make each "day" of Creation as long as they want it to be. But that fails. The ORDER of several events in the Genesis Creation Myth is wrong: they can make a "day" 24 hours, 1 year, a million years, or any length of time and it won't change the ORDER of events.
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You spoke of the universe being created, I answered of the universe being created ... the bible account says "In the begining God created the heavens and the earth" ... it doesn't give a timescale, just a fact.
It doesn't matter what timescale any professed Christian, athiest or agnostic puts on that bible account because it simply doesn't have a timescale.

As for the order of creation on the earth, take for instance your problem with light and dark ... the bible simply says in respect to the newly created earth ... not the universe:-
"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning— the first day."
We are not told why the earth was in darkness after its creation ... cloud cover? Who knows?
What we are told is that God made the division between day and night, just as we experience every day, with light from the sun during the day and darkness during the night.
As for your dispute concerning the order in which each type of life appeared on the earth, science cannot provide such specific evidence to categorically say that the bible's account of the order in which each was produced is wrong.

Christianity is not about 'making facts fit', it's about following a pattern set by Jesus Christ that makes for a better life and a better society with a better hope for the future.
Unfortunately most so-called Christians behave in a manner contrary to the bible's teachings and that hypocrisy, more than anything else, turns people away from God and the bible.
 
You see. This is where i have a problem in understanding. Maybe you can explain further. I have put my text in blue. :)

gramps said:
You spoke of the universe being created, I answered of the universe being created ... the bible account says "In the begining God created the heavens and the earth" ... it doesn't give a timescale, just a fact. Where is the evidence for this fact?
It doesn't matter what timescale any professed Christian, athiest or agnostic puts on that bible account because it simply doesn't have a timescale.But it does have a timescale, 7 days, regardless of how you want to interpret those 7 days

As for the order of creation on the earth, take for instance your problem with light and dark ... the bible simply says in respect to the newly created earth ... not the universe:-
"Now the earth was formless and empty,That would suggest a nothing? darkness was over the surface of the deep,the deap of what? there is nothing there remember? and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.wait a minute waters? where is the water, on the nothing? And God said, Let there be light, and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light day, and the darkness he called night. And there was evening, and there was morning— the first day."
We are not told why the earth was in darkness after its creation ... cloud cover? Who knows?
What we are told is that God made the division between day and night, just as we experience every day, with light from the sun during the day and darkness during the night. Thats because the earth spins round the sun creating day and night, so maybe this is what the bible meant, yes? but wait, early man thought that the world was flat and that the sun moved around the earth, why didn't they believe the bible, oh but the bible doesn't say that bit:thumbs:
As for your dispute concerning the order in which each type of life appeared on the earth, science cannot provide such specific evidence to categorically say that the bible's account of the order in which each was produced is wrong.You are correct, it doesn't provide specific evidence, it provides a great deal of evidence, but evidence is evidence, it proves something, that is a fact.

Christianity is not about 'making facts fit', it's about following a pattern set by Jesus Christ that makes for a better life and a better society with a better hope for the future.Thats fine and exactly how i live my life, you don't need religion to do that. But in the world today, you need facts to move on with life. To create something you need research, evidence and facts, without these elements in place the world would be in turmoil, with man and women causing havoc based on what they believe with no after thought of the consequences. Litteral interpretation is taken too far when religion is concerned, wars are created because of polotics and religions. People die every single day because of religion, which is wrong. Sex offending in religion is rife. Every single dirty act of what the bible tells you not to do is being done by those that preach the bible.
Unfortunately most so-called Christians behave in a manner contrary to the bible's teachings and that hypocrisy, more than anything else, turns people away from God and the bible.
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But what if God put all the fossils etc into the rock as he created it, just to give you doubt? What if he put all the carbon in the right places, just to fool you?

Faith (in this sense) is not Faith if you categorically know that something exists. It is only by knowing that there can never be any proof that some higher being does exist that you are able to put your Faith and belief system to thetest and receive the full mental benefits.

Indeed the veritable book of Wiki states - Since faith implies a trusting reliance upon future events or outcomes, it is often taken by some people as inevitably synonymous with a belief "not resting on logical proof or material evidence."

It is a test of personal belief and commitment to a higher being which gives the internal benefits of religion.

One the other side of the coin, one could argue that religion is just a way of controlling the masses and the rules that govern that religion are GENERALLY for the good of the followers. I say generally as not all religions are like this and many religions have changed over periods of time as people come to interpret them in different ways.

Catholicism and C of E being one example of the splintering of the Christian church.

Me, I've not made my mind up yet.

However, it is Turtles all the way (after the Elephants) .
 
This thread just may survive after time is crushed:D Great idea OP!

As for the current debate of Faith vs Science it is certainly making some very interesting points on both sides. I do wonder if religion is loosing ground to science which is producing extrodinary evidence of our existence. I'm not a believer in religion but, I am curious to the fact that billions are. Are they all wrong? Is it possible for co-existence. With science discovering new facts about ourselves and the universe everyday I wonder can faith possibly stand up to the hard facts in the future. I think less and less will believe in faith as science places facts in the hand rather than feeling.

Thats enough. Im off to make a cuppa!:thinking:
 
lawrie29 said:
But what if God put all the fossils etc into the rock as he created it, just to give you doubt? What if he put all the carbon in the right places, just to fool you?
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Again something else i don't understand.

If god creates such convincing evidence all around us that the earth and universe are billions of years old, then that is exactly what god wants us to believe, yes?

So creationists are going against gods will?



One the other side of the coin, one could argue that religion is just a way of controlling the masses and the rules that govern that religion are GENERALLY for the good of the followers. I say generally as not all religions are like this and many religions have changed over periods of time as people come to interpret them in different ways.

Catholicism and C of E being one example of the splintering of the Christian church.

Me, I've not made my mind up yet.

However, it is Turtles all the way (after the Elephants) .
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This is a statement that i believe to be true, It is a form of control, and i base my descision on the amount of flaws there are in the bible.

I'm glad you haven't made your mind up yet, it means that you are sitting on the fence, maybe supporting some idea's from the bible to help in your journey. But never lose sight of the facts and the facts are that you may never know, you cannot, CANNOT base life around a belief in something which you do not and never will understand.

I live my life every day, questioning the things i don't understand, or don't beleive, this give me the ability to grow and move forward. When the human race stopps doing this we will all be controlled.
 
gramps said:
As for your dispute concerning the order in which each type of life appeared on the earth, science cannot provide such specific evidence to categorically say that the bible's account of the order in which each was produced is wrong.
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Yes it can. Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it's not there. The evolutionary history of life is well covered in many popular science books, for example 'Almost Like a Whale' by Steve Jones, or 'The Ancestor's Tale' by Richard Dawkins.
 
Tenubracon said:
I give you the great Bill Hicks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk
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:lol::lol::lol:
Vantage said:
This thread just may survive after time is crushed:D Great idea OP!

As for the current debate of Faith vs Science it is certainly making some very interesting points on both sides. I do wonder if religion is loosing ground to science which is producing extrodinary evidence of our existence. I'm not a believer in religion but, I am curious to the fact that billions are. Are they all wrong? Is it possible for co-existence. With science discovering new facts about ourselves and the universe everyday I wonder can faith possibly stand up to the hard facts in the future. I think less and less will believe in faith as science places facts in the hand rather than feeling.


Thats enough. Im off to make a cuppa!:thinking:
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Religion is slowly dwindling away the more facts are revealed. As we become more intelligent we start to understand everything around us, 300 years ago the world was flat and in that time people have ventured into space and discovered billions of galaxies all capable of supporting life. We are soon to be making a journey to Mars in the hopes of terraforming it as we have killed our own planet, if they discover bacteria in the frozen water then that's religion out the window forever. you may get a few straglers trying to convince themselves that it was put there by man, or even re-write parts of the bible to say that god put it there, but we will all know the truth when it happens.

But then again god could slap me in the face right now and if he did i would eat my hat and my words. :D
 
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Cool thread - enjoyed reading it.

I terms of Scientific fact or Godly faith - If one day the existence of 'God' is proven - it just becomes Scientific fact.
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
Again something else i don't understand.

If god creates such convincing evidence all around us that the earth and universe are billions of years old, then that is exactly what god wants us to believe, yes?

So creationists are going against gods will?

No, cos if God told us all that, then what would people have to beleive in?



This is a statement that i believe to be true, It is a form of control, and i base my descision on the amount of flaws there are in the bible.

I'm glad you haven't made your mind up yet, it means that you are sitting on the fence, maybe supporting some idea's from the bible to help in your journey. But never lose sight of the facts and the facts are that you may never know, you cannot, CANNOT base life around a belief in something which you do not and never will understand.

No, you can. Plenty of people in the past have done so and will continue too. I don't fully understand Particle Physics, (Or why I can't take better photos) but based on what other people tell me - bit like religion this part - I understand that Particle Physics exists and it has an effect on things.

I live my life every day, questioning the things i don't understand, or don't beleive, this give me the ability to grow and move forward. When the human race stopps doing this we will all be controlled.
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And Religion stops you doing this?

Many of the great industrialists were heavily religious - just look at the Quakers and the businesses and philanthropic ideas they took forward to form the basis of many major companies and business ideas. Cadbury for one, and where would this country be without Dairy Milk, but more importantly Bournville - the town that was built around the factory for the workers. A dry town, no pubs, and a hugely successful place it became. The idea has been copied all over the country - Port Sunlight, Vulcan Village, etc. etc. and at that time improved education and living conditions for the people lucky enough to work there. And this came from very strong religious belief.
 
"Religion is slowly dwindling away the more facts are revealed. As we become more intelligent we start to understand everything around us, 300 years ago the world was flat and in that time people have ventured into space and discovered billions of galaxies all capable of supporting life. We are soon to be making a journey to Mars in the hopes of terraforming it as we have killed our own planet, if they discover bacteria in the frozen water then that's religion out the window forever. you may get a few straglers trying to convince themselves that it was put there by man, or even re-write parts of the bible to say that god put it there, but we will all know the truth when it happens."

But the modern bible is only an interpretation of a copy of a latin version that was copied from a copy of what people remembered after the event. And that's just the new bit. There is enough in the bible to cover all eventualities.

What if Mars was just a starter planet, one that God tried building but messed up on before he got finished?
 
Vulcan village! ...... Does Spock still live there? :lol:

Sent from my X10i using TP Forums
 
lawrie29 said:
And Religion stops you doing this?

Many of the great industrialists were heavily religious - just look at the Quakers and the businesses and philanthropic ideas they took forward to form the basis of many major companies and business ideas. Cadbury for one, and where would this country be without Dairy Milk, but more importantly Bournville - the town that was built around the factory for the workers. A dry town, no pubs, and a hugely successful place it became. The idea has been copied all over the country - Port Sunlight, Vulcan Village, etc. etc. and at that time improved education and living conditions for the people lucky enough to work there. And this came from very strong religious belief.
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And you have based all of that around chocolate? :lol:
So that has moved the human race into an evolutionary high spot in its small existence, and will be remembered for thousands of years, that the creators were religious and believed in chocolate. :lol::lol:

No, cos if God told us all that, then what would people have to beleive in?
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I don't understand that bit.

No, you can. Plenty of people in the past have done so and will continue too. I don't fully understand Particle Physics, (Or why I can't take better photos) but based on what other people tell me - bit like religion this part - I understand that Particle Physics exists and it has an effect on things.
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But you only except it and understand it because people before you took the time to research and find evidence, test theories and gain hard facts. They can tell you thier findings based on that so its all credible. The bible is not credible, it has no source of evidence, there are no facts, just words written in a book from a handfull of people over 2 thousand years ago.
 
lawrie29 said:
"Religion is slowly dwindling away the more facts are revealed. As we become more intelligent we start to understand everything around us, 300 years ago the world was flat and in that time people have ventured into space and discovered billions of galaxies all capable of supporting life. We are soon to be making a journey to Mars in the hopes of terraforming it as we have killed our own planet, if they discover bacteria in the frozen water then that's religion out the window forever. you may get a few straglers trying to convince themselves that it was put there by man, or even re-write parts of the bible to say that god put it there, but we will all know the truth when it happens."

But the modern bible is only an interpretation of a copy of a latin version that was copied from a copy of what people remembered after the event. And that's just the new bit. There is enough in the bible to cover all eventualities.

What if Mars was just a starter planet, one that God tried building but messed up on before he got finished?
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That's a big what if and a very silly one might i add. :rolleyes:
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
That's a big what if and a very silly one might i add. :rolleyes:
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No sillier or bigger than the argument that you are having regarding the existence or not of a higher being. Lets face it, we will never know either way, but if there is one, why could he not have had a practice?
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
Its a disscusion not an argument. And its a perfectly rational one.
If god had practice that would imply that he is not perfect and according to the bible, god is perfect in every way. So yes its a silly one.
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So you accept that he exists and is perfect!!

We win!
 
So you are accepting that what the bible says is correct, if you are using it to discredit my argument.

If you weren't then you would acknowledge that God could have had a practice.
 
If God had a practice (a point I'd dispute but I'm going with it) who's to say this was his final and best attempt? He only described his creation as "good". If I was all knowing, all powerful, and all loving somehow I don't think I'd settle for "good". We could just be another mistake in a long line of mistakes before he finally hit on what he was hoping to achieve. It would certainly explain a lot of the things wrong with this world....oh wait, the greatest 'get out clause' of all time does that: freewill.
 
lawrie29 said:
No sillier or bigger than the argument that you are having regarding the existence or not of a higher being. Lets face it, we will never know either way, but if there is one, why could he not have had a practice?
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And there might be fairies at the bottom of the garden and a monster in Loch Ness. It is perfectly possible to investigate the likelihood of the existence of a god or of pixies on Mars, or pretty much anything, by looking for evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of either god or the pixies, so the most logical thing to do is proceed as if they do not exist until some evidence does show up.
On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that the universe came into existence aboit 13.5 billion years ago as a result of an event we call 'the big bang'. You can, if you wish, ask 'who lit the touch paper for the big bang', but this (a) shows you don't understand what physicists mean by the big bang, which involved the creation of time itself, and (b) adds nothing to the debate, because, as with all religious claims, there's no evidence to back them up.
 
lawrie29 said:
So you are accepting that what the bible says is correct, if you are using it to discredit my argument.

If you weren't then you would acknowledge that God could have had a practice.
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No, his post showed thet if you accept what the bible says (god is perfect) then you'd be forced to conclude that god got it right first time. If you were to insist that Mars was just practice, you'd be contradicting the bible. This in no way indicates that the poster actually thinks that themselves, as indicated by the 'if'.
 
lawrie29 said:
So you are accepting that what the bible says is correct, if you are using it to discredit my argument.

If you weren't then you would acknowledge that God could have had a practice.
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I think you are missing the point and trying to create something daft in a poor attempt to make me look silly. You have obviously not read the bible because if you had you would know that no-where does it say that god had practice.

Your views on the what ifs and what havs are all excepted provided they are of a decent amount of substance, but implying that god had practice would lead us to believe that there are other planets out there with life on, if this is the case then the bible falls again, as there is no other life, just us.

So you see your attempt has dug you a large hole and i am standing above you holding a shovel. :thumbs:
 
Tenubracon said:
And there might be fairies at the bottom of the garden and a monster in Loch Ness. It is perfectly possible to investigate the likelihood of the existence of a god or of pixies on Mars, or pretty much anything, by looking for evidence. So far, there is zero evidence of either god or the pixies, so the most logical thing to do is proceed as if they do not exist until some evidence does show up.
On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that the universe came into existence aboit 13.5 billion years ago as a result of an event we call 'the big bang'. You can, if you wish, ask 'who lit the touch paper for the big bang', but this (a) shows you don't understand what physicists mean by the big bang, which involved the creation of time itself, and (b) adds nothing to the debate, because, as with all religious claims, there's no evidence to back them up.
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You see, you accept there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, but won't accept there is a god!!

The whole point of religious belief (as I said before) is that there is not and can never be any proof of a higher being. It is about your personal internal belief, and the benefits of this can not be had if you don't believe (you'll have to trust others on this, as stated, i've not made my mind up).

Just because there is no evidence of something does not mean it is not there or does not exist. It just means we havn't worked out how to look for it yet.
 
lawrie29 said:
You see, you accept there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, but won't accept there is a god!!

The whole point of religious belief (as I said before) is that there is not and can never be any proof of a higher being. It is about your personal internal belief, and the benefits of this can not be had if you don't believe (you'll have to trust others on this, as stated, i've not made my mind up).

Just because there is no evidence of something does not mean it is not there or does not exist. It just means we havn't worked out how to look for it yet.
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But why would you be looking for it if you don't need proof?

Also, can you explain the benefits of believing in god please?
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
I think you are missing the point and trying to create something daft in a poor attempt to make me look silly. You have obviously not read the bible because if you had you would know that no-where does it say that god had practice.

Your views on the what ifs and what havs are all excepted provided they are of a decent amount of substance, but implying that god had practice would lead us to believe that there are other planets out there with life on, if this is the case then the bible falls again, as there is no other life, just us.

So you see your attempt has dug you a large hole and i am standing above you holding a shovel. :thumbs:
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But where does it day he DOESN'T have a practice eh!?

And I believe that the Bible says that God made the Heavens and the Earth - well at the time of writing, space was heaven, so God did make all the other planets, and so could have conceivably put life on others. Again, at the time of writing the technology was not there to understand bacteria, so that part could have been over looked as a bit boring and irrelevant.

It is all down to how you interpret the interpretations..........

Standing over me with a shovel eh? Thats not very nice is it? :lol:
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
But why would you be looking for it if you don't need proof?

It's the non beleivers who are looking for the proof, is it not?

Also, can you explain the benefits of believing in god please?
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Chocolate! - I told you that before!
 
lawrie29 said:
But where does it day he DOESN'T have a practice eh!?

And I believe that the Bible says that God made the Heavens and the Earth - well at the time of writing, space was heaven, so God did make all the other planets, and so could have conceivably put life on others. Again, at the time of writing the technology was not there to understand bacteria, so that part could have been over looked as a bit boring and irrelevant.

It is all down to how you interpret the interpretations..........

Standing over me with a shovel eh? Thats not very nice is it? :lol:
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So your saying that when we die we go to space?
Well its says he made the heavens and earth, no mention of other planets because at that time no-one knew there were other planets.

But it did say 6 days of creation and 1 day of rest, but that cannot be true according to you as he had practice first, or that we were the practice, again implying that god is a flawed and imperfect being. Your right on the technology side of things though but we are talking about pre-scientific minds here. But what gets me is the notion that god overlooked something, again implying he is flawed and imperfect. So if you are a believer you need to really try and grasp what it is exactly you believe in.
 
Lunaticsamurai said:
So your saying that when we die we go to space?
Well its says he made the heavens and earth, no mention of other planets because at that time no-one knew there were other planets.

But it did say 6 days of creation and 1 day of rest, but that cannot be true according to you as he had practice first, or that we were the practice, again implying that god is a flawed and imperfect being. Your right on the technology side of things though but we are talking about pre-scientific minds here. But what gets me is the notion that god overlooked something, again implying he is flawed and imperfect. So if you are a believer you need to really try and grasp what it is exactly you believe in.
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God had a pause button! The bible says 6 days of creation and 1 of rest, but a day is a human concept based on the Earth performing one rotation. Well, nothing to say that God had started the Earth spinning, giving him plenty of time!

And if no one knew of other planets,as you said, they could not write about them and include them in the bible. Just because it is not in the bible, does not mean it could not happen.

And what about the other religions and there accounts of the creation? We can't all be right can we!
 
lawrie29 said:
You see, you accept there are fairies at the bottom of the garden, but won't accept there is a god!!
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Did you really get idea that I believe in fairies from what I wrote? I think you'd better read it again.

lawrie29 said:
Just because there is no evidence of something does not mean it is not there or does not exist. It just means we havn't worked out how to look for it yet.
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To use the example of fairies once again: If I hear haunting, high-pitched singing in my garden late at night, see what looks like tiny footprint in the grass and find tiny houses with dinky furniture in under the trees, then I have discovered a phenomenon. I might then think of ways of explaining this phenomenon, for example I might think that local children play in my garden sometimes, or someone is trying to trick me, or even that there might be fairies living in the bushes. These are my hypotheses, which I developed to explain the phenomenon. I could think up ways of testing these hypotheses, most of which would involve observations of some kind. After a while, I discover that one of my observations seems to fit neatly with one of my hypotheses: I see children playing in the garden on several occasions. I now have an evidence-based theory, namely that the children made the houses, sang the songs and left the footprints. I could be wrong, of course, and further tests will be needed to strengthen my theory, or to reject it if I find contradictory evidence.
What's all this got to do with anything? Well, the hypotheses, the investigations, the theory, they only came about because there was a phenomenon to investigate in the first place (the songs and so on). It would have made no sense to sit in my garden observing on the off chance, would it? Similarly, there's no point 'working out how to look for things' as you suggest, when there isn't even any phenomenon to explain in the first place!

*For much more cogently argued versions of my fairy story, see Carl Sagan's 'Dragon in my Garage' argument from 'The Demon Haunted World' and Bertrand Russell's famous teapot argument.
 
No Phenomenon! - How come Cambridge Uni have done research that says that 88% of the population believe in a God of some kind. IF 88% of the planet believing something is not a phenomenom, I don't know what is!
 
There is not the slightest shred of evidence that god exists. What there is eveidence for is that people justify thier actions (or inactions) on "god" Base thier beliefs on gods. When the going gets tough, they pretend every word in some man made book (bible koran etc) is fatual. When challenged, they go round and round in circles, constantly refering back to this odd point of reference as fact (whereas infact, they just believe it is fact)

People can believe what they want, but they shouldnt impose thier beliefs on others. There is a huge chasam between belief and science. Whilst scientists get things wrong, the whole methodology is based on facts, observations, experementations, croschecking and peer review. The methodology of believers is "I believe"... I will ignore all the facts that opose that belief, and grasp onto the inuendo that supports the belief
 
lawrie29 said:
No Phenomenon! - How come Cambridge Uni have done research that says that 88% of the population believe in a God of some kind. IF 88% of the planet believing something is not a phenomenom, I don't know what is!
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You forgot the rest.
From the internet.

As of 2005 (most recent data), approximately 88 percent of the world's population were said to "believe in God" (Cambridge University). This is down from 96 percent in 2000. In the United States, 95 percent of the population "believe in God."



So thats a loss in 5 years, but that's an outdated test anyway and not done on 6 billion people living on this planet. The telegraph in 2008 also had a section saying Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University stated that higher IQ individuals are less likely to believe in god.
 
lawrie29 said:
No Phenomenon! - How come Cambridge Uni have done research that says that 88% of the population believe in a God of some kind. IF 88% of the planet believing something is not a phenomenom, I don't know what is!
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Give me one example of an unequivocally supernatural event, one that cannot be explained in the natural (scientific) framework, which would warrant serious investigation. Furthermore, show me evidence that this event was caused by a god and not by a fairy or hobgoblin.

The fact that 88% of people believe in some kind of god (I'll take your word for it) is certainly a phenomenon, but the question it raises is surely more about the credulity of the people questioned rather than the existence of a god. That is "Why do so many people believe in the supernatural?" rather than "Which of my sons does god want me to sacrifice this year?".
 
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