An Independent Scotland?

Its not just any private company, it underpins the economy, it underpins society, Take liquidity out the system, how does society operate, what happens to interest rates, mortgages and investments, the capitalistic enterprises that fund the socialist values that we strive to keep, things like the NHS and state pensions.

IMO that's true only to the extent we we choose to believe it.

Of course those companies will cry that they are more important - they want to continue socialising losses (while privatising profits). But I'm afraid they are "just another private company". (Frankly if a company ever really was "too big to fail" then the people need to consider it "too big to exist" and disband it - you can't have that kind of unmanageable threat to the economy).

As for liquidity, we have other banks! Of course our society needs "banks", but that doesn't mean we need THOSE banks. Let the banks fail and other, more prudent, banks would step in and buy up the remaining viable assets - that is what happens in capitalism. Not only would society continue to operate, it would be improved (much improved) by the process of financial Darwinism - good decisions are rewarded, bad ones drop by the wayside. By propping up BAD decisions we not only reward but perpetuate those failures. There is no "free" wealth - the fact that we direct wealth toward propping them up directly takes that from other sectors of society. That is a choice, and IMO a bad one.

If the UK thought they could dump it why didn't they?
I agree, THAT is indeed the question on which to ponder. It makes no sense to do so, and yet it happened - speculating on why that might be can be enlightening.

£2000 was the savings limit ceiling, then a percentage of what was left if the banks went bust if I recall correctly.
The protection ceiling was £50,000, and was raised to £85,000. Savers' assets were already protected.

Just to clear up about facts and lies. It been said here that all/most politicians are liars (not necessarily disagreeing here), even one attributed to Salmond himself. Are we telling the undecided voters in the absence of facts that Scots lies are better for you than EU/UK lies?
To me the answer to that lies in the question, we just need to frame the question another way.

We accept that we are surrounded by lies, and that fact will not be changed by a vote. Is it then better to be faced with lies which are more controllable, or less controllable?

As a nation Scotland cannot possibly influence the near 400 million EU, nor even the 70 million UK. Let's say Scots wanted to maximise "Gross National Happiness" "GNH :)" over the next twenty or a hundred years - which path gets us to the better result? Self-determination toward that outcome, or being a cork in the UK tide?

Look at the UK over the past decades - a massive slump bailed out by an oil find. Rampant financialisation, followed by a credit and housing bubble of epic proportions. If that's economic management, it's neither planned, sustainable or anything to crow about. IF a better path is desired, it's easier to find consensus among fewer people than among many. The more people you bundle in, invitably the less of a consensus there must be.

There's an argument from the No camp that I can't get my head around - it's that Scotland is too poor to stand on it's own feet, that the rest of the UK is supporting Scotland, and that Scotland would collapse without that.....but despite all those horrific flaws we still want to keep you....

Excuse me...?! So Scotland is like the alocholic uncle, and the UK is putting Scotland up while we drink it out of house and home. If that is indeed the case, why does the UK wish to retain Scotland?

However, I do indeed think the relationship is a bit like that - oil wealth flows south, and Scotland gets a lot back in "benefits", public sector jobs, disability, unemployment etc. I think that's bad for both parties. Scotland needs to plan for a world post North-sea oil, and it won't do that while getting benefits from the rest of the UK. Far better to learn to live in the real world now - Norway is an example, having used oil for sovereign wealth fund and developing for the future, rather than squandering it now.

Norway is not part of Sweden, yet they trade, share borders, people, money, goods, services flow easily back and forward. So too Scotland and the rest of the UK have a long and rich history that will not be changed by a decision over where laws are made. We have history from before Scotland was even Scotland, when we were a group of ununited clans - that will not be changed by a different face on banknotes, or location at the bottom of a statute.
 
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Salmond says yes, Cameron and Milliband say no.
Gawd almighty, I have to agree with at least one of them.
Might stay in bed that day.
 
Salmond says yes, Cameron and Milliband say no.
Gawd almighty, I have to agree with at least one of them.
Might stay in bed that day.
Agree - that's not pleasant to contemplate!
 
... I would like to see the West Lothian question resolved (Tam Dalyell is another one I have time for, even though I disagree with him about almost everything). The Scotland Act 1998 singularly failed to do so, or even to address the issue at all.
Absolutely. That's the most shameful aspect of the current political infrastructure. It's totally indefensible. Obviously Scottish Independence would solve it, but it will be very interesting to see what happens if the Scots vote no. Would that make a solution to the question closer or further away?
 
That is all completely logical, Bernie. Add to that the likely closure of Rosyth Dockyard (which was kept open in preference ro Devonport). Sounds like an awful lot of folk being thrown on the scrapheap.
As for the 12 Typhoons - sounds like a fairy story.
 
Its a bad idea and most (not all) people I know will be voting no so from where I'm sitting I cant see Scottish Independence happening.
 
Its a bad idea and most (not all) people I know will be voting no so from where I'm sitting I cant see Scottish Independence happening.

how many people are going to vote no just because the SNP are bringing the referendum? it doesn't mean they will be in power in the next election.

voting yes means we get rid of trident and our share of the 34bn for its replacement, we get ride of the current government which lets be honest are numptys. Scotland takes in more than it spends, we have some oil/gas reserves and a base for the nukes away from England. no wonder Westminster want to keep Scotland. currently our unemployment is going down faster than the UK, our economy is getting stronger faster than the rest of the UK. Voting no keeps a government that wasn't voted for by the people of Scotland in power in Scotland. seems rather strange that
 
I work with a lot of Scottish guys and talking to them it is probably 60/40 in favour of a No vote.

Some of them want independence at any cost and aren't prepared to listen to any arguments to the contrary. What surprised me,however,was the comments made by quite a few of those in the No camp was that they were voting No because of the lack of firm policies and facts from the SNP and the constant belittling by Alex Salmond of anyone who doesn't agree with his "I want to pick the bits ill keep" rhetoric.

Several told me that the biggest asset to the No campaign was Alex Salmond himself.

It does seem that no matter who it is that puts forward a counter argument to what the currency will be used or if Scotland can join the EU or any other aspect they are rebuffed as though they have no business even commenting. That these people generally have comparable or greater experience in these matters than Alex Salmond doesn't seem to deter him.

The latest comments by Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland would default on its share of debt smacks of a toys out of the pram comment and diminishes Scotland in the eyes of the world.

One aspect that puzzles me is the bill that will be passed giving voters above the age of 16 a vote. If its a Yes will they then be eligible to vote to elect a Government of Scotland or will it revert to the age of 18 after the independence vote?
 
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I can fully understand those scots who would like to see an independent Scotland. But I think its more a case of strong national pride, which I can admire, as opposed to economic sense.

I strongly believe that in the longer term (e.g. when the oil and gas run out. as it will), that in breaking away from the UK, Scotland will be worse off economically.

If the Navy yards go back to Devonport, as I believe they would, there would be an awful lot of unemployed Scots in those areas, and an awful lot of people in Devon and Cornwall that will be happily re-employed.

If the RAF also pull out, from what would become a foreign country, there would be a similar situation.

As has already been mentioned in this 'thread', the Scottish shipyards currently build the Royal Navy's warships. That could be withdrawn back into the UK, with the loss of a lot of jobs.

This is but a small island, and whether we live in Scotland, Wales, or England, we are all British (except when it comes to football or rugby :D). As I said earlier, we fought and died alongside each other in two world wars. Not for Scotland, Wales, or England, but for Britain.

United we stand, divided we fall!!.

There are as many, if not more, Englishmen that are just a disillusioned with previous and current UK governments, as you scots are, and indeed our Welsh friends. However, breaking away to become a small independent nation is not going make things better for you IMO.

There's a lot of 'b******t' sales talk, being proliferated by both sides at the moment, but I reckon that you have to see through this, and read between the lines.

That said, if Scotland does break away, then I wish it, and its people the very best of luck, as think they will need it, and I am not being facetious.

Dave
 
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I can fully understand those scots who would like to see an independent Scotland. But I think its more a case of strong national pride, which I can admire, as opposed to economic sense.

I strongly believe that in the longer term (e.g. when the oil and gas run out. as it will), that in breaking away from the UK, Scotland will be worse off economically.

If the Navy yards go back to Devonport, as I believe they would, there would be an awful lot of unemployed Scots in those areas, and an awful lot of people in Devon and Cornwall that will be happily re-employed.

If the RAF also pull out, from what would become a foreign country, there would be a similar situation.

As has already been mentioned in this 'thread', the Scottish shipyards currently build the Royal Navy's warships. That could be withdrawn back into the UK, with the loss of a lot of jobs.

This is but a small island, and whether we live in Scotland, Wales, or England, we are all British (except when it comes to football or rugby :D). As I said earlier, we fought and died alongside each other in two world wars. Not for Scotland, Wales, or England, but for Britain.

United we stand, divided we fall!!.

There are as many, if not more, Englishmen that are just a disillusioned with previous and current UK governments, as you scots are, and indeed our Welsh friends. However, breaking away to become a small independent nation is not going make things better for you IMO.

There's a lot of 'b******t' sales talk, being proliferated by both sides at the moment, but I reckon that you have to see through this, and read between the lines.

That said, if Scotland does break away, then I wish it, and its people the very best of luck, as think they will need it, and I am not being facetious.

Dave

As a Scot, I can agree with absolutely every part of that except the first sentence, Dave. However, national pride has no place above practiality. We can have national pride, but still still muck in for the national UK good. You are a million per cent correct in mentioning our comradeship in the two world wars. United we stand - divided we fall.
I don't think Scotland will break away. I actually think that the vote will be decidedly the opposite way.
 
The latest comments by Nicola Sturgeon that Scotland would default on its share of debt smacks of a toys out of the pram comment and diminishes Scotland in the eyes of the world.

It was a daft thing to say, after scamron (see even us in England don't really like him that much!), has said that Scotland wouldn't have to take on it's share of the debt.

It's a strange concept to me, having been born outside the UK, and having English/Irish parentage, I see my self as British more than English, or Irish, or indeed Cypriot!
 
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It was a daft thing to say, after scamron (see even us in England don't really like him that much!), has said that Scotland wouldn't have to take on it's share of the debt.

It's a strange concept to me, having been born outside the UK, and having English/Irish parentage, I see my self as British more than English, or Irish, or indeed Cypriot!

Not only a daft thing to say, but petty and infetile. Par for the course, I think.
 
Another thing I would like Salmond to explain, his certainty an independent Scotland would be in the EU which in my mind would see us doing what Brussels demands, how can that be Independence ?
 
Another thing I would like Salmond to explain, his certainty an independent Scotland would be in the EU which in my mind would see us doing what Brussels demands, how can that be Independence ?
It wouldn't be independence. Of course it's better than "wee Scotland tries to influence wee UK, that tries to influence EU" - at least you're talking to the organ grinder - but it's not any form of independence as you would expect.

As expressed above, my feeling is that this is as much as can be achieved in a first step. Many people do not like change, or (in many cases rightly) concerned by the unknown. Even still sharing borders, trade etc with the UK, the act of self-determination is already too much for many. Add in an exit from the EU at the same time, and.....! IMO if we look around the neighbours, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Iceland etc, it's better independent and working with other countries as an equal, rather than being ruled by them. But, it's a big step to convince people of, and a risk to lose the whole vote.
 
IMO if we look around the neighbours, Switzerland, Norway, Sweden, Iceland etc, it's better independent and working with other countries as an equal, rather than being ruled by them.
Sweden is part of - sorry, I'll say that again - Sweden is "ruled by" the EU.
 
Sweden is "ruled by" the EU.

Or to be more exact, France and Germany.

To suggest that all countries in the EU are equal is foolish. Cyprus is hardly equal to Germany for example. The EU is run for Frensch and German interests, not the collective. Scotland, if they can get into it, will be just another very small voice amongst many others, and a long way down the pecking order.
 
If only us English could be given the same as our Scottish friends.... i.e. A vote on independence (from the EU in our case). Hardly fair that they get to vote on their future but we can't.
 
If only us English could be given the same as our Scottish friends.... i.e. A vote on independence (from the EU in our case). Hardly fair that they get to vote on their future but we can't.

Onomatopoeia and I mentioned Frank Field a few pages back; the Tory who's the Labour MP for Birkenhead ... and that was his take on the Scottish Referendum last night when he was a panellist on Any Questions; essentially 'Goodbye, good luck and thanks for providing a landing port for all that North Sea Oil'.
 
Sweden is part of - sorry, I'll say that again - Sweden is "ruled by" the EU.
Yep - sorry, my point wasn't clear. Despite being in the EU Sweden trades very happily with neighbours, even sharing border agreements. Being in or out of the EU needn't hamper other countries that trade with and share borders with countries that wish to be in the EU. For sure countries in the EU cannot be equal, and indeed that's not what the EU is about. It's about creating a federal superstate, with which to "balance" the US, China, India.
 
I'm firmly in the no camp. It's not that i think we can't go it alone, I don't think it's necessary. Nor do I think it's the right time to be having it. I'm happily British but even if I was pro-independence I don't trust Salmond to be the one to see this through and make the correct decisions at this time. It will take a lot to turn me around to a yes vote.

But then, we're all entitled to our opinions and our vote. A few people on facebook need to realise that or i'll be happily deleting them.
 
I must say that I am more than impressed by the rational discussion on this forum on this emmotive subject. There are clearly opposing views, but there has been no posturing or grandstanding. No one has slagged anyone off or spat their dummy out.

Congratulations everyone. :)
 
Hopefully, the debate can stay rational, so lets see if I can get my feelings across without causing issues to anyone. I’m NOT asking anyone to agree with me – only that those who are looking from the outside might become more subjective and more informed on a topic which, like it or not, will dominate the next few months and WILL affect them significantly, whether they accept that or not.

Firstly, I don't want to speak for all, but let me try to broadly explain the Scottish desire to be independent:

• Scotland IS a country and a nation (always has been, always will be) with a distinct national identity and a culture which differs from our neighbour(s). Those who suggest anything contrary, that we are just a region of ‘North Britain’ in the same manner as (e.g.) Tyne & Wear, only serve to insult and cause further divide.
• With a population of 5 million, our political views and wishes for our COUNTRY can never be represented at Westminster, when 14 million people in the South East of England alone might think differently about any number of topics.
• Due to the foregoing, our nations wealth and assets will always be squandered on projects which suit the opposite end of the UK.
• We are treated as subservient citizens – not necessarily by all the people of rUK, but most certainly by the parliament of Westminster and even by the Scottish politicians we elect to represent us there.

Reasons to stay in the union:

• To remain a bigger player on the world stage
• To retain a ‘representative’ seat on the UN permanent security council
• A bigger voice in Europe
• A greater defence force

Essentially, to be in the gang with the biggest stick and therefore impose our ‘views’ on other smaller nations. What most of the English (in particular) mindset cannot comprehend, is that we actually don't give a flying
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about this sort of thing. We were not raised on the prospect of world domination and we really like getting along with people who want to get along with us. This is a cultural difference and it is palpable.

Reasons to leave the union:

• To look after our own affairs and keep our own house in order
• To be viewed as a ‘responsible adult’, rather than ‘stroppy teenager’ or ‘ex-wife’
• To tax and spend on priorities which apply only to OUR country
• To put an end to all the ‘issues’ of Westminster & The Lords at a stroke
• To be seen as a good neighbour, friendly and hospitable, rather than imperialist and arrogant

There are a majority of good people in England, Wales and N.I. A lot of these people feel similar to the Scots about a lot of issues of national governance. However, the mindset of a significant chunk is that England=UK. This mindset increases the closer you get to London.

I am not suggesting for one second that Scotland is a wasteland and London is not. There are parts of London that make the east end of Glasgow look positively special. But we here don’t need to consider that, when the people of London don’t consider Govan. Most of Scotland’s people can accurately point to the major centres of UK population on a map and many of them have been there. By contrast (personal experience), there is a huge degree of ignorance of the locations of Scottish interest, even in professional people, south of Carlisle (or more importantly, South of Milton Keynes). To make light hearted use of the ‘divorce’ analogy, it’s like suggesting that the woman knows exactly where the husbands ‘bits’ are, while he hasn’t a clue what a clitoris is, never mind where to find it!
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The problem in the UK is one of scale and democracy. If Westminster do something that we in Scotland don’t like, it’s a long way to go to protest. We are also too small a voice – even if 250,000 Scots were to march on parliament. So where is the democracy for a country there? By contrast, if 250,000 Scots were to march on an Edinburgh parliament, this would be logistically simple and you can guarantee that we’d be heard. I personally believe in a ‘smaller state’ and I know from sound business experience that it will be far simpler and much more efficient to run ‘Scotland Ltd’ than it can ever be to run ‘UK Plc’. Some will cry “what about economies of scale” and they may have a point, but I believe that a smaller business can negotiate better terms (if they try) whilst making commensurate savings in the waste of a larger organisation. Purchase price alone is not an indication of net profit to be realised. The smaller business can also adapt more quickly to changing markets and take advantage of an innate ability to be more nimble as it moves forward. If the UK is an articulated lorry, then Scotland is a Mini Cooper. True to say that one can squash the other, but the mini is quicker and more efficient (and it looks better too).
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There are facts, figures and forecasts in abundance. Each side will manipulate these to their greatest advantage, such is human nature. Furthermore, politicians will lie, feather their nests and look to the interests of their friends and family. This is certainly the way of things at the moment and it’s unlikely to change, or more likely, it will get worse until someone shakes the tree.

To take a prime example, we can look at Gordon Brown. A fine upstanding MP, ex-PM and member of the Fife community….. or is he? Recently seen patronising a few pensioners in Lochgelly who are struggling to heat their homes, whilst his tenure in office allows the ‘cronies’ to be on the payroll of a US banking institution as an advisor. Tony Blair gets £2Million a year as a part-time ‘advisor’ to JPMorgan bank without ever needing to go into the office. This is the same bank that was saved by Gordon Brown selling off all the UK’s gold assets at a ridiculous knock down price.

Now, whilst I don’t want to be having a pop at one particular MP/PM, I simply want to illustrate what happens to MP’s (specifically ‘Scottish’ ones for the purposes of this debate) when they get to Westminster. By the way, Ed Balls was Gordon Browns sidekick at the time of the gold sell off – the same Ed Balls who is now part of the trio that says Scotland can’t have the £pound.

The issue for Scots here is one of accountability – particularly to the people. It should also be an issue for the rest of the people in rUK, as their representatives are often just as culpable. We have a situation here in Scotland now, where democratically elected Scottish MP’s have publicly stated that the positive economic prosperity of their own constituents is less important than their own seat in Westminster - that is, 'the Union'. Put another way, “vote for me and I will put my access to the parliamentary trough above the prospects of your pocket”.

Now, how about turning the debate away from home to look at a.n.other country and pretend for a moment that it is elsewhere on the globe rather than Scotland.

This notional country has:

• An embarrassing wealth of natural resources
• A world top-ten GDP per capita
• Self sufficiency (excess) in ‘life basics’ (food etc)
• A growing economy
• Low unemployment
• A secure global export product
• A wealth of open spaces to expand if necessary

Can any sane person suggest that this notional country can’t run its own affairs successfully – especially when you consider the reality that every nation on the planet (of a similar size) is doing so, most often with FAR less going for it?

The next question is why, if this notional country is in close proximity to your own, would YOU not wish them ‘all the best’ and be prepared to help them find their feet in a neighbourly fashion, rather than doing everything possible to hamper their quest for self determination? After all, you have previously helped (and continue to help) many other countries, be they neighbours or foreign powers who probably don’t actually need the help.

Ridicule or discuss as you see fit.

At the end of the day, THIS IS HOW MANY OF US SEE THINGS. Unfortunately, a lot of people will call this view a variety of names. However, let me make one final (and very important) point:

I hold my family & friends in England, Wales and Ireland (not to mention France, Holland and the USA) in EXACTLY the same high regard, no matter what the eventual outcome of the debate is. This is NOT about people, this is about government.

I should also point out that a huge amount of PEOPLE south of the border are sending messages of support northwards. The BBC comment section includes such items as “Dear Scotland, all the best with your desire to free yourself from Westminster. If you win, can you please take us with you. Best Regards, The North West” The same has come from the North-East, The Midlands, Wales, Devon & Cornwall etc.
 
You state your case very well John, it is clear that you have studied the situation in depth, and hold very strong views on it. As such there can be no doubt as to how you will vote.

However, as an English bystander, who has nothing to gain or lose by Scotland leaving the UK, you have said nothing to convince me that Scotland would be better off as a small independent nation. Not of course that its me, and millions of others south of the border that the 'YES' camp has to convince, but all your fellow Scots in the 'NO' camp, who I think are currently the majority.

However, as I said earlier, if the the 'YES' camp is successful, and Scotland leaves the UK, it will become a separate entity residing on this small island of ours, and I wish it good fortune. To the rest of the UK, it would effectively become a foreign country. A sad day for Britain.

I would hope that the early sweet smell of success will last beyond the time when the oil and gas run out, and the Royal Navy withdraws back to the UK, taking their ship building contracts with them.

Which ever way the vote goes, I wish Scotland and its people all the best.

Dave
 
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That's an epic post John.

Probably one of the best on here of late.

I'm going to quote this bit thogh.....

let me try to broadly explain the Scottish desire to be independent:

There isn't a Scottish desire to be independent :facepalm:
 
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Dave - Thank-you (sincerely). I would very much like to see you replace the other 'call me Dave' in Westminster, as your sentiments would make all the difference in the world to the political landscape.

If I may be so bold, I'd like to draw your attention to a couple of items which may be slightly inaccurate in your post.

Firstly, you may be (unfortunatley) wrong in your supposition that you have nothing to loose. If I may quote the Financial Times as an independent and authoratitive publication:

"An independent Scotland could also expect to start with healthier state finances than the rest of the UK"
also:

"Although Scotland enjoys public spending well above the UK average – a source of resentment among some in England, Wales and Northern Ireland – the cost to the Treasury is more than outweighed by oil and gas revenues from Scottish waters"
They even managed to make a nice little picture to illustrate their supposition:

ftyes2.jpg


What this means is that, without Scotland, you WILL be worse off.

As for becomming a foreign country, I think that's Daily Mail speak rather than a social norm. Last time I was in Holland there was a public hoilday (Queens Day) and we needed to get some groceries. We ended-up going to Belguim to buy bread. The 'foreign country' idea never entered the frame and we might just as well have been nipping down to Tescos.

As for the Royal Navy retreating back to rUK,.... Don't get me started on that one.
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The UK government, despite all it's intelligence and military power, only discovered the presence of a Russian Aircraft Carrier (Admiral Kuznetsov) in Scottish waters via TWITTER. Then, since there are no ships or aircraft for the sabre rattling purpose at all in Scotland as things stand at the moment, they had to despatch HMS Defender from Portsmouth taking two days to intercept.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/mod-used-t...-1-3292763

Philip Hammond, the UK defence minister stated in Westminster: "We don’t need a frigate stationed in Scottish waters. What we need is good intelligence about the intentions of vessels approaching the UK’s area of interest and we have that good intelligence"

With the one of the longest coastlines in the NATO area, and a 'country' that spends more than double per head of the EU average on defence, having 'the best Navy in the world', just how bloody ludicrous is this statement? If 'good intelligence' means Twitter, God help us.

So, it can hardly be called Scottish security at the moment, can it? How much is it worth to the UK? Obviously not very much, despite the UK's (?) £1.5Tn in assets being located under the waves here.

For those who can't be bothered with words here is a picture of something that happened less than 20 miles off the coast of Aberdeenshire (taken a few days after the Ruskies appeared):

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Imagine this off the Lizzard and tell me you'd be happy with YOUR current security arrangements......... Then tell me again about us not having any protection.

Ship building contracts? I believe Scotlands coastline would be best served by a fleet of (US Style) coastguard vessels. That should keep the Scottish shipyards busy for longer than the MoD intends to and it would be easilly affordble with much less than we currently spend as our 'share' of the UK defence budget. Quite where you are going to store your Trident subs is a very different matter. The Isle of Sheppey sounds really good to me!!!;)
 
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There isn't a Scottish desire to be independent :facepalm:
Latest independent polls suggest 48% Yes and 52% No, with a constant swing towards Yes since November (6-point swing in the past week alone).

Given the foregoing, and the 'epic' strength of view in my post(s) above, I think it's (perhaps) misleading or just plain wrong to suggest this Phil?

However, I hope we can agree to disagree as I still want to come to your garden to photograph redpolls - with or without my kilt.;)
 
Thank you for that in-depth reply John, and I do respect your views, even if I might not agree with them. On these we will have to agree to disagree, which is why its nice to live within a democracy that allows us to do this.

One thing that I don't understand, is how the continued use of the UK pound would work, if Scotland were allowed to retain it after leaving the Union.

The pound is controlled by the Bank of England, which of course is effectively the Bank of the UK. Would an independent Scotland want the Bank of England controlling "their" pound?. Or would the Scottish pound have a different value to the pound in the rest of the UK, and if so, would I have to consider an 'exchange rate' when visiting Scotland.

I'm no monetary expert, but I can't see how Scotland could retain the UK pound, if it became an independent country, as surely we couldn't have the single pound controlled by the Bank of England, south of the border, and say the Bank of Scotland north of the border. That would surely be a nonsense.

I guess Scotland could opt for the Euro, if it were able to become a member of the EU.

Then there is the issue of Passports. As all of those Scots that currently hold a UK passport would, I guess, be entitled to keep them and have dual-nationality. However, those that don't have a UK passport at the time of the break-away, would likely not be entitled to a UK passport, but would have a Scottish passport.

Currently, I can travel to Scotland, and not need my passport, but if Scotland were no longer part of the UK, then I would need to I guess, and visa-versa. That would seem very strange indeed.

What would be next after an independent Scotland, an independent Wales and Cornwall perhaps. A fragmented island indeed!!.

BTW, when I referred to the Navy and their ship building contracts withdrawing back into the UK, I wasn't referring to the defence aspects, but the jobs they currently provide for the civilian population in Scotland. I guess the same goes for the RAF bases.

Just my personal opinion of course, but I think the biggest weakness the 'YES' camp has, is the person leading/fronting their campaign.

The people of Scotland will decide their fate or fortune, and the rest of us must respect whatever decision they make.

That decision will undoubtedly please some in Scotland, and disappoint others. The old saying "you can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time", will ring very true here.

Dave
 
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Latest independent polls suggest 48% Yes and 52% No, with a constant swing towards Yes since November (6-point swing in the past week alone).

Given the foregoing, and the 'epic' strength of view in my post(s) above, I think it's (perhaps) misleading or just plain wrong to suggest this Phil?

However, I hope we can agree to disagree as I still want to come to your garden to photograph redpolls - with or without my kilt.;)

It's not really an unexpected swing given that there's only one side with a campaign.

As for the garden - perhaps tartan some trews as a compromise. We wouldn't want to scare them off ;)
 
Selective Humourous Snippage warning
I should also point out that a huge amount of PEOPLE south of the border are sending messages of support northwards. The BBC comment section includes such items as “Dear Scotland, all the best with your desire to free yourself from Westminster. If you win, can you please take us with you. Best Regards, The North West” The same has come from the North-East, The Midlands, Wales, Devon & Cornwall etc.
Good luck, but please also take Essex with you.
Regards
The South East :)
 
DaveS2 wrote in #268:-

"I guess Scotland could opt for the Euro, if it were able to become a member of the EU."

Last week John Swinney publicly ruled out adopting the Euro and joining the ERM. A strange statement given that no one is allowed to join Europe with doing both of these things. They are not open to negotiation. Making up policy on the hoof by the sound of it.
 
Latest independent polls suggest 48% Yes and 52% No, with a constant swing towards Yes since November (6-point swing in the past week alone).

They were just discussing an ICM poll released today on Sky News, No at 49%, Yes at 37% and undecided 14%.
 
If everyone is happy for me to take up the mantle of providing some balance to the debate....... However, you won't see what I'm saying in the mainstream media, so you must be prepared to see beyond the headlines.
One thing that I don't understand, is how the continued use of the UK pound would work, if Scotland were allowed to retain it after leaving the Union.
It would work in prety much the same way as it does just now. The individual economies of Scotland and rUK are hardly poles apart. Essentially, nothing would change so THAT'S how it would work. Nothing about keeping the pound (BoE control etc) is a loss to us from where we are today. The same cannot be said for soverignty.

Would I have to consider an 'exchange rate' when visiting Scotland.
No! However, we would still need to ensure a pocket full of English notes when going south - just as we have had to do for decades!!

I'm no monetary expert, but I can't see how Scotland could retain the UK pound, if it became an independent country, as surely we couldn't have the single pound controlled by the Bank of England, south of the border, and say the Bank of Scotland north of the border. That would surely be a nonsense. I guess Scotland could opt for the Euro, if it were able to become a member of the EU.
I am no expert either, but I can't see how we can't retain the £. Sterling is a fully tradeable commodity across the globe. We can tell rUK to f***-off and still use the pound if we want to, just as we coud use the dollar or the Euro or the Yen. However, surely it is better for everybody to do this within a framework of agreement. As for EU membership,watch this space..... I think there are going to be a few surprises in store there for a number of reasons, not least the following: I am CURRENTLY an EU CITIZEN. My EU mandated human rights will be voilated if another member state refuses to maintain my citizenship against my wishes...... Think about that one for a while next time you hear a Barosso scare story!

Then there is the issue of Passports. As all of those Scots that currently hold a UK passport would, I guess, be entitled to keep them and have dual-nationality. However, those that don't have a UK passport at the time of the break-away, would likely not be entitled to a UK passport, but would have a Scottish passport. Currently, I can travel to Scotland, and not need my passport, but if Scotland were no longer part of the UK, then I would need to I guess, and visa-versa. That would seem very strange indeed.
Too much Daily Mail in there I fear Dave..... You can currently drive into Eire (a foreign country) without a passport and I sincerely believe Scotland would be the same.

What would be next after an independent Scotland, an independent Wales and Cornwall perhaps. A fragmented island indeed!!.
Neither Wales nor Cornwall have the appetite for independence, nor could they afford to do it even if they had. Scotland has decried this union for three hundred years. The people themselves didn't opt into it back then - it was forced upon them by their feudal lords - the so called 'parcel of rogues' in the Robert Burns poem.

BTW, when I referred to the Navy and their ship building contracts withdrawing back into the UK, I wasn't referring to the defence aspects, but the jobs they currently provide for the civilian population in Scotland. I guess the same goes for the RAF bases.
Indeed! I also explained that I think we can fill these vacancies with our own ship-building requirements. Furthermore, at the time of the last (1979) referendum, the pro-union campaign used exactly the same (fear) tactics to suggest that 30,000 ship building jobs would be under threat with independence. However, we stayed as part of the union and despite this, we now have only 2500 jobs in ship-building........

Just my personal opinion of course, but I think the biggest weakness the 'YES' camp has, is the person leading/fronting their campaign.
Then I fear you are lost to the media mis-information.

Alex Salmond is a far more skilled and competent man than the press portray him. He is more than a match for any of the incumbents at Westminster. (BTW, do you all have blind faith in Westminster politicians?)

An economics graduate of St.Andrews, Alex Salmond started in his working life as Assistant Economist in the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland. Two years later he joined the 'private sector' when he was employed as staff by RBS and worked there for seven years becoming the banks economist and oil economist (long before the 'issues' at RBS). He spent twenty-seven years as an MP in Westminster so he has known the ropes since many of the current cabinet were in nappies.

Contrast this with George Osborne who after a stint as an NHS data entry clerk, only lasted in the 'private sector' for one week where his job was re-folding towels at Selfridges.

I may not be Alex Salmonds best supporter, but I very much respect him in this regard. He could tear a spare ar$sehole for Cameron in the space of ten minutes and THIS is why Dave won't face him.
I don't believe that 'ego' should play a part in this because the point is simply economic competence. we all have ego's, perhaps the press play too much on Salmond in this respect as I've never heard talk of Tony B-liars ego in negative terms but my God, his dwarfs Salmonds.
 
DaveS2 wrote in #268:-

"I guess Scotland could opt for the Euro, if it were able to become a member of the EU."

Last week John Swinney publicly ruled out adopting the Euro and joining the ERM. A strange statement given that no one is allowed to join Europe with doing both of these things. They are not open to negotiation. Making up policy on the hoof by the sound of it.

Except that the SNPs position is that Scotland is already an existing member of the EU and will not be joining as a new member state. Whether you agree with that idea or not it is their stance and so statements made off the back of it are valid and not made up fairy tales.
 
Except that the SNPs position is that Scotland is already an existing member of the EU and will not be joining as a new member state. Whether you agree with that idea or not it is their stance and so statements made off the back of it are valid and not made up fairy tales.
That's only the nationalists view though Hugh. Scotland is not a member of the EU the UK is. Come the day after the independance vote there will still be a UK and possibly a new independent country Scotland who will have to apply for membership regardless of what the SNP say. I am not saying you wouldn't get membership just I do not believe it will be automatic.

Steve
 
To clarify something I said above, referenced for those that need it:

All residents of Scotland, like myself, are CURRENTLY EU CITIZENS. This cannot be challenged by anyone here and this status will not change the day after a Yes vote. My EU mandated human rights, enshrined in EU convention (ECHR), will be utterly voilated from within the club if another member state refuses to maintain my citizenship against my wishes......

Article 18 of THE TREATY ON THE FUNCTIONING OF THE EUROPEAN UNION:

"Within the scope of application of the Treaties, and without prejudice to any special provisions contained therein, any discrimination on grounds of nationality shall be prohibited."

Would any legal experts here care to take a view against my supposition? A few million EU citizens petitioning the court in Brussels about Human Rights violations could cause quite a headache for a kick-off. Think about that one for a while, next time you hear a Barosso scare story!
 
That's only the nationalists view though Hugh. Scotland is not a member of the EU the UK is. Come the day after the independance vote there will still be a UK and possibly a new independent country Scotland who will have to apply for membership regardless of what the SNP say. I am not saying you wouldn't get membership just I do not believe it will be automatic.

Steve

That's not the point I was making though, I was responding to Daves "making up policy on the hoof" comment. As to Scotland being a member or not only time will tell. It is a fact that no-one even in the EU parliament or civil service has a definitive answer to that question though and with that in mind I seriously doubt they will plump for the "no you have to re-apply" stance. It's simply in no-ones best interests to do so.
 
I am no expert either, but I can't see how we can't retain the £. Sterling is a fully tradeable commodity across the globe. We can tell rUK to f***-off and still use the pound if we want to, just as we coud use the dollar or the Euro or the Yen.

Except of course it is backed by the Bank of England. You can have the pound if you so wish but it will be a Scottish pound supported by Scottish bank and open to the vagaries of the currency markets. Not a very hospitable place for a fledgling currency.

Steve
 
Sorry if I was unclear Steve, but I beg to differ. Scotland CAN use the (BoE) £ sterling as it's currency without any intervention from rUK. This will be THE SAME £ Sterling as you woiuld have in your pocket in the rUK. My point is that nobody can stop us using a fully tradeable currency (£, Euro, $, Yen) if we wish to do so unilaterally. However, it is better for all (north and south) to do this within a framework of co-operation.
 
It is a fact that no-one even in the EU parliament or civil service has a definitive answer to that question though and with that in mind I seriously doubt they will plump for the "no you have to re-apply" stance. It's simply in no-ones best interests to do so.
Most of the discussion I have read regrading eu membership revolves around Scotland having to reapply again its only the nationalists who are claiming otherwise, best interests or otherwise have very little to do with it, this is the EU after all :).

I find these discussion interesting but like most discussions on nationalistic lines it becomes very polarized and to be honest I find the SNP's response regarding the pound and EU a bit poor. They really ought to have a plan and quick because whilst Osbournes and others interference caused a short term spike in the yes I see its fallen back now in most of todays polls. If come the day of the vote you still have SNP saying we are having the pound and London saying no your not, then I think that's going to be a big problem for the nationalists.

Personally I am not against Scottish independence if that's what you want my son is at uni in scotland and I believe in the social policy initiatives that the SNP are following and I would love to see some of it here but those policy initiatives will be more difficult after independence when an independent Scotland has to deal with the international markets especially the currency ones. That's why the SNP so much desire the stability that is Sterling. Whether or not Scotland will be better off after independence I leave that question to those who know more about economics than I do but if I remember correctly income from oil is falling and probably will continue to do so. Scotland really does need a plan b on the pound and on the falling oil revenues.

Steve
 
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