An Independent Scotland?

[Paul M]

I will be voting no,, if i had been 30 plus years ago,, might have thought different,, i have no faith in the ones in politics that are pushing for independence. Having met a few of them over the years, this is why.

 

[BRASH]

That's fine Pete, if you want it then lobby your MP to get it started, it's entirely your concern and only you can do it. Also please get the idea that Scotland is subsidised out of your head, it's been proven countless times that Scotland contributes more to the Union than it gets back financially.

Correct!!............ and will likely continue doing so after Salmond gets humiliated with a NO vote

 

[big soft moose]

That's fine Pete, if you want it then lobby your MP to get it started, it's entirely your concern and only you can do it. Also please get the idea that Scotland is subsidised out of your head, it's been proven countless times that Scotland contributes more to the Union than it gets back financially.

riiight if you say so- good luck with keeping the free university education after independence.

Also Salmond clearly wants a monetary union because he's absolutely confident in scotlands financial stability, naturally

 

[Steep]

There are thousands I'm sure reasons why it would be a good thing and just as many other why it might not be so good. Personally I think a short-mid term currency tie-in would be best to allow business to sort itself out and then go it alone.

 

[AndyB1976]

So its turns out Salmond didn't want the Pound about 10yrs ago because it was a millstone around Scotland's neck, he wanted the Euro. Now he wants the Pound again for all the reasons that make the United Kingdom work.

He wanted us to follow and be a part of the Arc Of Prosperity including Ireland and Iceland, good model to follow not to forget he wanted us in the Euro at the same time - remember this man is an economist allegedly.

He wants to split up the greatest and most successful union there's ever been. Look at our history, science, engineering, the arts, medicine, the NHS, architecture, look at our armed forces, NATO, the Commonwealth and our education system.

He wants to give the financial powers to a foreign country (England) and surrender more power to Europe (Germany). Scotland could not directly vote or influence these two critical aspects of democracy, that's Salmond's independence for you. Oh well there is always Plan B........isn't there?.......isn't there?

Now when this brash, blustering buffoon gets told No to a currency union and a likely No to joining the EU, suddenly he plays the victim card and Scotland is getting bullied. He plays the democracy card when it suits yet tries to dictate policy to other countries and unions when he thinks democracy isn't such a good idea afterall.

His seemingly anti-English (or UK) stance is appalling. He seems to forget what held Germany and Russia from these Islands and that includes Polaris and Trident, else we wouldn't be here having this discussion.

Vote NO. Rule, Britannia!

 

[MartynK]

I think that John #149 is correct. Salmond knows it will be a No vote and hopes to stampede Westminster into granting more powers to the Scottish Parliament, e.g. tax raising (they call it tax varying) powers.

Devo-max. Salmond wanted it placed on the ballot as a third alternative, but I think a lot of this was agreed some time ago and is going to take place anyway. No doubt Salmond will try to take the credit for this, and Cameron will insist that it has nothing to do with the referendum, it was always part of the devolution process, and he's just honouring commitments made in the past.

I don't suppose there's any realistic chance that the SNP could just be straightforward, and call their fiscal proposals by their real name of power to increase taxes?

 

[BRASH]

Now when this brash, blustering buffoon gets told No to a currency union and a likely No to joining the EU, suddenly he plays the victim card and Scotland is getting bullied. He plays the democracy card when it suits yet tries to dictate policy to other countries and unions when he thinks democracy isn't such a good idea afterall.

I resent that word being associated with that megalomaniac oaf!!

 

[FourRingCircus]

Pete, I'm sorry but you've obviously been under a misapprehension for years. Perhaps if you can see beyond this, you will understand why we want independence.

Scotland more than pays its way in the UK (8.4 per cent of the UK population, contributing 9.9 per cent of UK tax revenues but getting back only 9.3 per cent of public spending in return). Source: Government and Expenditure Revenue Report 2011-12

We also know an independent Scotland would be in the world’s top ten wealthiest countries based on GDP per head of population. GDP per head in Scotland is about £24k whereas it is only £20k per head south of the border. From the same (UK) government reports, Scotland generated £1,700 more in tax per person than the UK as a whole in 2011-12. In fact, Scotland has generated more tax per head than the UK every year for the past 32 years - Even when oil prices were lowest.

Once you accept that the notion of Scotland being a nation of scroungers is a MYTH, you begin to see why a Westminster government of any hue would not want to loose them. Which begs the question of why our so-called media is content to keep the myth going along nicely across all parts of the UK.

The McCrone report - instigated by a conservative government in 1974 and branded Top Secret (for 30 years!) by the incoming Labour regime stated that an independent Scotland's budget surpluses as a result of the oil boom, wrote Professor McCrone, would be so large as to be "embarrassing". Scotland's currency "would become the hardest in Europe, with the exception perhaps of the Norwegian Kronor." From being poorer than their southern neighbours, Scots would quite possibly become richer. Scotland would be in a position to lend heavily to England and "this situation could last for a very long time into the future."

Forget the lies everyone has been fed by Westminster for decades and look at the facts before adding to the debate in such a way that it only adds flame to the fire.

And just for some balance, I've spent time in Devon - at Dartmouth Naval College - where I was surrounded by the Etonians and public schoolboys. They are no more fit to run a country than to run a bath and they have absolutely no understanding of life outside of their own little bubbles.

 

[BRASH]

Pete, I'm sorry but you've obviously been under a misapprehension for years. Perhaps if you can see beyond this, you will understand why we want independence.

I think you'll find most people in Scotland don't and that'll be proven in September

 

[fracster]

Some very good points and valid arguments here guys.

Let me ask one question though, If England/Westminster deny Scotland the pound Sterling and the EU/Brussels deny them the Euro, where does that leave Scotland financially?

 

[BRASH]

Some very good points and valid arguments here guys.

Let me ask one question though, If England/Westminster deny Scotland the pound Sterling and the EU/Brussels deny them the Euro, where does that leave Scotland financially?

We'll be trading in sheep and herrings. Won't happen tho cauz the vote WILL be NO!!!!!

 

[fracster]

We'll be trading in sheep and herrings. Won't happen tho cauz the vote WILL be NO!!!!!

How can you be so sure mate?

 

[BRASH]

How can you be so sure mate?

Trust me. Salmond is starting to be seen for what he is (I'd get banned if I were to go into detail). He'll get the Braveheart vote but not the will of Scotland. You'll see.

 

[Jjm]

I have lived up here for 16 years and never really thought about the Independence issue until my proudly Scottish wife announced that we will be moving to Newcastle if it goes ahead.She has got it into her head they will suffer a similar fate to Cyprus and the banks will steal her money

 

[AndyB1976]

Some very good points and valid arguments here guys.

Let me ask one question though, If England/Westminster deny Scotland the pound Sterling and the EU/Brussels deny them the Euro, where does that leave Scotland financially?

They daren't and they won't so stop bullying Scotland and giving us the fear [/alex salmond]


(I tried to make a lighthearted reply here but reading it back....thats pretty much Salmond's stance. Oh well better get my sea rod oot the shed and get ma collie dug to learn "Come-Bye....Away....That'll do")

 

[GeeJay57]

If Scotland's economics are principally based on North Sea oil tax revenue, that's a secure future right there....... Not!

Most of the oil is long gone, about 90% of what comes out of the ground is water these days. Natural gas yields will continue for some time to come, even that is not enough to meet demand. Oil will increasingly have to come from somewhere else before too long. This may be a few decades, but less than half a century. Decommissioning of the oil rigs is already being planned.

I actually think that it would be somewhat ironic that Scotland could be entering a period where they have an opportunity for political independence from England and yet in order to achieve that they instead end up tethered to Europe. Obviously being part of modern day UK creates such hardship for Scotland.

Independence today does not erase or rectify political, socio-economic differences of the past

 

[kendo1]

We'll just have to bring back the Merk.

I really can't see a majority voting 'Yes'. What would happen to Eurovision?

 

[arclight]

Not so - the population south of the border will also be affected by it - particularly if the vote in scotland is against independence. There could be a sizeable proportion ogf the english tax payers who don't want their tax money spent on subsidising scotland.

I'd say let scotland have their refferendum but lets also have one on english independence - if the English choose to leave the union and the scots don't the scots can feel welcome to remain in a union with wales and NI.

also on a related subject scotland has a parliment that looks after their interests , so does wales, so does NI - but england doesnt, we have only the westminster party which has to consider the wishes of all of the uk - maybe we should have an english parliment composed only of english consituency MPs , then all four countries can be independent

Sorry, Pete, but that is a bit like saying that if all the numpties want to jump into the river then we (the English) want the right to jump in also. As a Scot, I say that a Scottish parliament is a waste of money, as are Welsh and Irish assemblies etc. An English parliament would be a further waste of money.
We all only need one small UK gov for us all.
All this is not about serving the needs of the UK people, but serving the desires of the parasites in power.

 

[arclight]

Trust me. Salmond is starting to be seen for what he is (I'd get banned if I were to go into detail). He'll get the Braveheart vote but not the will of Scotland. You'll see.

Yes, you are dead right, Brash. Have you ever seen those nutters on Bannockburn day. All dressed up in their rags with swords and red wigs. What sort of people could actually care about an event 700 years ago.

 

[Steep]

Trust me. Salmond is starting to be seen for what he is (I'd get banned if I were to go into detail). He'll get the Braveheart vote but not the will of Scotland. You'll see.

You're making a huge mistake if you think this is all about Salmond or even the SNP, after a yes vote and eventual independence there would be the usual elections and the winners would be those voted for.
A.S. is like any other politician of any flavour, he'll say anything to get a vote but I'm more than happy to let him lead us down this road. While you may not think much of him personally the SNP have done good things in the time they've been in government here, no more prescription charges, no more eye test charges, no more bridge tolls, free university education.

 

[BRASH]

Salmond has made it all about him. He'll lead you alright. Right up the garden path. There are things I can't/won't mention on here that have seriously soured me against the man, his party, his politics and his reasoning.

As for prescriptions etc I'd happily pay for that. Leave the free stuff for those who really need it. For what it's worth I'm on medication for life so that effects me.

 

[s162216]

To be honest you have to love the opinion polls, take a look at the summary provided here of polls going back a few years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#Opinion_polling

Anyone else notice that the only poll so far to get a 'yes' majority (abit by only 1%!) was commissioned by the SNP?

 

[Steep]

To be honest you have to love the opinion polls, take a look at the summary provided here of polls going back a few years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence_referendum,_2014#Opinion_polling

Anyone else notice that the only poll so far to get a 'yes' majority (abit by only 1%!) was commissioned by the SNP?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25917726


It matters not who commissions a poll if the questions are asked and answered honestly.

 

[GeeJay57]

You're making a huge mistake if you think this is all about Salmond or even the SNP, after a yes vote and eventual independence there would be the usual elections and the winners would be those voted for.
A.S. is like any other politician of any flavour, he'll say anything to get a vote but I'm more than happy to let him lead us down this road. While you may not think much of him personally the SNP have done good things in the time they've been in government here, no more prescription charges, no more eye test charges, no more bridge tolls, free university education.

Nothing is free, somebody is paying for all these free items..

 

[FourRingCircus]

in the most recent poll, conducted by ICM, there was no less than a six point swing to "yes".

At 46%, the "yes" vote among those voters that have made up their mind was the highest yet to be recorded by any independently commissioned poll - and put it not that far from the 50% winning post.

 

[cambsno]

What I don't get is why Cameron is opposed to this? Think about it, Tories have next to no MPs up there, the rest come from Labour, Lib and SNP. So, if Scotland breaks away that would massively boost the Tories chances of getting overall majorities, and helping stopping Labour... so for a Conservative stance YES would be the best result.

I think its a bit rich that Scots can be trusted to vote on this yet we can't be trusted on a vote on the EU, and like others have said, why SNP would rather be governed by Brussles than London!

 

[Steep]

They have one MP, I think Cameron might be playing a sneaky game here, as I said way back when this thread first started without the Scottish Labour vote it's highly unlikely that Labour will ever get back into government south of the border. The way Cameron has been getting Scots backs up with his comments he might actually be trying to push us into voting yes to ensure they stay in power in Westminster.

 

[dinners]

The way Cameron has been getting Scots backs up with his comments he might actually be trying to push us into voting yes to ensure they stay in power in Westminster.

The irony

Cameron swinging people to vote yes whilst Salmond continues to do wonders for the no campaign.

 

[realspeed]

Those that say yes havn't thought it through properly. It would mean new passports, customs border checks, new money printed, not allowed to be part of the EEC but have to have pets go into quarrantine for 6 months as the won't be allowed to become members of the EEC so no pet passports.All dogs would have to have a rabies jab as well. No support from England for hospital treatment -education-infrastructure. Of course us in the UK would be rid of a lot of MP's in our houses of parliments and their assistants which instantly saves English tax payers millions of pounds. If Scottish people wanted to get a loan from an English bank the interest rates would go sky high. Would the Scottish people be able to feed themselves or pay import duties getting food from England. Services such as gas electricity water they would have to supply themselves or buy from England.

Maybe England would be a lot better off without Scotland scrounging off the English tax payer.

 

[dinners]

Maybe England would be a lot better off without Scotland scrounging off the English tax payer.

 

[realspeed]

All that and not including work permits if working in England, creating a Scottish Embassy in England , and goods subject to import duty from England and what about fishing zones, how would a 25 mile fishing exclusion zone work? None of this or my above posts have even been thought of or mentioned in the press or TV . Talking about TV no weather reports same as Southern Ireland and programs would have to have a broadcast licence to be shown in Scotland. Then again those in need such as financial help or out of work benefits would have to be met by Scottish tax payers. None of these issues have even been mentioned by Mr Salmon who is pushing for independance and the Scottish people should be bombarded him with such issues and demanding an answer

By the way I happen to love the Scottish people and have been treated superbly on the occassions I have been up there and would hate to see them have independance and suffer for one loudmouth politican out for his own gain and importance

 

[AndyB1976]

What I don't get is why Cameron is opposed to this? Think about it, Tories have next to no MPs up there, the rest come from Labour, Lib and SNP. So, if Scotland breaks away that would massively boost the Tories chances of getting overall majorities, and helping stopping Labour... so for a Conservative stance YES would be the best result.

I think its a bit rich that Scots can be trusted to vote on this yet we can't be trusted on a vote on the EU, and like others have said, why SNP would rather be governed by Brussles than London!

Maybe the UK is seen as bigger than the sum of its parts in the EU, NATO and the UN.

I guess if you were to dilute your influence in these global arenas just in order to guarantee your party power in its homeland, then its almost victory at all costs, a hollow victory. This won't upset insular nationalists on either side of the border, they'll feel emboldened and empowered. They've got what they wanted and they will keep you in power until future failures can be apportioned elsewhere.

Salmond is hellbent on this policy; banging the nationalist drum and spouting his socialist utopian dream to the believers. A dream to be governed by Germany and fiscally constrained by England lol

 

[dinners]

Salmond is hellbent on this policy; banging the nationalist drum and spouting his socialist utopian dream to the believers. A dream to be governed by Germany and fiscally constrained by England lol

You should copywright that

Whilst Salmond seems to be doing as much for the 'No' campaign as he is the 'Yes' campaign, it does irk me somewhat that the 'No' campaign seems far less pro active.

I accept that any group driving change will be the more vocal however, I'd like to see more emphasis on ensuring those younger voters (now included) are fed sound impartial facts rather than be left vunerable to what amounts to nationalist propeganda.

 

[Steep]

Salmond is hellbent on this policy; banging the nationalist drum and spouting his socialist utopian dream to the believers.

You can hardly blame him for that! he's the leader of the SNP, a party that exists because it's member want to gain Independence.

 

[Steep]

A load of tripe that doesn't bear repeating

There's so much claptrap in what you posted I don't know where to start refuting it. You clearly haven't read the thread as your major points have already been answered a number of times and the rest of it is either minor administrative issues or completely false.

 

[AndyB1976]

You can hardly blame him for that! he's the leader of the SNP, a party that exists because it's member want to gain Independence.

Yes but you missed off the end of my quote. I have no problem with Scotland or any country wishing for Independence, England included if they chose a referendum on the same subject in the future.

But NOT governed by another country (Germany) and financially constrained by a second (England) particularly one that we have just left. Surely the staunched Nationalist can see that this is isn't Independence.

What if we went down the road of floating our own currency and leaving the EU? If the term Independence has already been used for what Salmond wants, how do we sell this idea; Independence Max?

 

[Moadib]

The conclusion I am trying to draw is that this first step proposed by SNP is "independence-lite" - Scotland moves out of the UK, but (as an interim step) maintains the pound, maintains the monarch, maintains EU membership etc. My take is that were he to aim for more than that he would not be allowed to succeed - either that would be too much for the banks (losing the financial flow from Scotland, especially oil (although Scotland's territorial waters are no longer Scotland's)) or it would be too much for the people of Scotland to accept in one go. Already independence seems hard enough to understand for many, so make it as easy a step as possible.

The alternative I have to that line of thought is less pleasant - that "independence" means having laws from Brussels, power granted by the monarch of England, and money controlled by the Bank of England. I feel I'd struggle to find that structure under any definition of independence!

There's a strong focus on what it means financially today, which I must say seems quite irrelevant to me - as just one example Iceland became independent 70 years or so ago, and I doubt anyone there today cares what was their currency or financial situation at that time. It's about what you can make of it in the future, indeed being independent FORCES people to make the best of themselves in the future, just like us as individuals. I've read all the literature "proving" that Scotland pays into the Union, and "proving" that it doesn't. I suspect Scotland does more than pay its way, but only because of an oil bonanza. Other than that it feels less resilient, more benefits, more public sector. The oil will not last forever (indeed peaked more than a decade ago in terms of outflow rate), and it's rather time to make plans for the future, plans which suit locally.

We should care about today of course, but overall it should be less about today and more about where a nation will be hundreds of years hence and what that will mean. Scotland is already strange in that the central belt structure and needs are massively removed from the highlands, just as Scotland itself is massively different than London and the South East. It's hard to find central control that suits all (although politicians will always want a bigger pool to control, and that's an inertia the Yes vote is fighting).

 

[Steep]

I don't disagree with you on the EU Andy, as I've already said on this thread there are other options. I don't have to agree with every SNP policy to vote yes in the referendum. You're not seeing the long term picture, 'if' we join Europe and 'if' we stay with the pound it doesn't have to be permanent, we can always choose to leave either one if we find them too constraining. My thought is vote yes, get the job done and fix what needs fixing later as and when it needs fixing. What I don't understand is why anyone would think that staying under the thumb of Westminster is a viable option when that institution has repeatedly shown it's disregard for anyone outside of the South East of England, the further North the less they care.

 

[AndyB1976]

You should copywright that

Whilst Salmond seems to be doing as much for the 'No' campaign as he is the 'Yes' campaign, it does irk me somewhat that the 'No' campaign seems far less pro active.

I accept that any group driving change will be the more vocal however, I'd like to see more emphasis on ensuring those younger voters (now included) are fed sound impartial facts rather than be left vunerable to what amounts to nationalist propeganda.

The no campaign has been having a bit of a stinker, I don't think they have said anything of substance to convert the undecided vote whereas Salmond is absolutely selling the idea.

Then low and behold, the lowly electorate get some...ummm....ermm....FACTS! Facts about EU membership (that EU membership Salmond lied about obtaining legal advice that would allow our accession, Spain could Veto it and now France aswell) and then we would dictate to another democracy (the rest of the UK) about a currency union that he would never allow or want them to have a vote on.

Facts eh...can't live with them, can't live without them....and now a squirming Salmond, the greatest poster boy the No campaign could have wished for lol

 

[Steep]

Snip - It's about what you can make of it in the future, indeed being independent FORCES people to make the best of themselves in the future, just like us as individuals. snip

Thank you, this is what I've been struggling to say.