Amy Winehouse Found Dead.

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archamedes said:
I meant that in the sense to feed their fix. not drunken brawls in the street, have you ever heard of someone who had their house or car ransacked to feed their nicotine cravings or more to feed their heroin fix.

Cigarettes, no. Alcohol, yes, absolutely.
 
Just a quick question to those in the her fault camp.

What should be done to treat addicts then? They cost millions each year, remembering the nicotine addiction and alcohol have the most costs associated within the country.

lethal injection? :thumbsdown: costs too much to sterilise needles
electric chair? :thumbsdown: not with the current price of electricity
I think hanging - just a piece of rope and a strong tree needed

*not a serious suggestion
 
The poor A&E nurses who have to put with ****ed up idiots on Friday nights would agree with you there Mark.

When I worked in A&E as a qualified nurse, we used to have a girl came in every week and every time we tried to help her she just wouldn't take any notice.

We even used a large tube when doing stomach pumps so as to make it as uncomfortable as possible and she still didn't take the hint.
 
archamedes said:
I meant that in the sense to feed their fix. not drunken brawls in the street, have you ever heard of someone who had their house or car ransacked to feed their nicotine cravings or more to feed their heroin fix.

Mugging to steal a few cigs isn't rare, is it?
 
I read it, and it still isn't a disease. Take some responsibility for your actions instead of trying to absolve them.



People can and do every day.



Deny it all you like, it is the truth.

People can and do every day. ... and they relapse, due to the nature of addiction.

I shall .. it's your experience, not the truth.
 
well if you are going for the alcohol and nicotine arguemnent, people dont tend to rob, mug and steal for cigarettes and beer.

The sad truth is they do, check your local court sheets and local paper, most of the crimes committed will be shop lifting. I would hazard an educated guess the majority of those will be addicts who need alcohol. I am not one to make sweeping generalisations; however, I feel there are probably more people with alcohol based addictions committing crimes than class A drug addicts. I could be wrong though :)
 
When I worked in A&E as a qualified nurse, we used to have a girl came in every week and every time we tried to help her she just wouldn't take any notice.

We even used a large tube when doing stomach pumps so as to make it as uncomfortable as possible and she still didn't take the hint.

That is horrible.
 
Very disappointing the amount of sanctimonious finger-waving on this thread. I thought the Russell Brand article was spot on.
 
Firstly, obviously tragic and all that... sympathy to her family and friends.

I have one of her albums and although a couple of tracks are ok there's some garbage too IMVHO and I think that there's a lot of inflated hype about her talent. If she'd lived and produced more good work instead of cancelling gigs and being boo'd off stage and if she'd done so over a prolonged period or showed some true brilliance over a shorter time frame I might think that there was more cause to praise her but at the moment I fear that her status is being inflated by her drug and booze problems and early death, none of which justify any praise, hype, increased fan base or cult status IMVHO.

She had fame, money and a family and friends and seemingly every advantage and opportunity and she threw it all away and I now see nothing to inspire, enjoy or praise, quite the reverse I see a tragic and stupid woman who's self destructed and I personally wouldn't give another second of airtime to her.
 
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That is horrible.

I am going back about 1978-79 and they thought by making it uncomfortable they would have made her think twice of coming back in to A&E again, but it didn't make one bit of difference.
 
Removed. Not appropriate, and completely disrespectful
 
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Wow, wandering into OoF certainly gives a different perspective on people you might chat to thinking they were reasonable human beings. Or indeed just human beings, and thus capable of empathy and compassion.
 
woof woof said:
Firstly, obviously tragic and all that... sympathy to her family and friends.

I have one of her albums and although a couple of tracks are ok there's some garbage too IMVHO and I think that there's a lot of inflated hype about her talent. If she'd lived and produced more good work instead of cancelling gigs and being boo'd off stage and if she'd done so over a prolonged period or showed some true brilliance over a shorter time frame I might think that there was more cause to praise her but at the moment I fear that her status is being inflated by her drug and booze problems and early death, none of which justify any praise, hype, increased fan base or cult status IMVHO.

She had fame, money and a family and friends and seemingly every advantage and opportunity and she threw it all away and I now see nothing to inspire, enjoy or praise, quite the reverse I see a tragic and stupid woman who's self destructed and I personally wouldn't give another second of airtime to her.

I would imagine a lot of she signed the contract get her on stage went on. Record execs can be horrendous in what they are willing to put artists through. You would think that someone would have pulled the plug rather than force her to do it, but it is doubtful that was anyone from the record company.
 
I would imagine a lot of she signed the contract get her on stage went on. Record execs can be horrendous in what they are willing to put artists through. You would think that someone would have pulled the plug rather than force her to do it, but it is doubtful that was anyone from the record company.

Interestingly this very point was discussed on Radio 4 this morning, (yes Radio1 don't do it for me). It is a well known problem the level of pressure applied to various record label artists and something that some of those involved are trying to overcome.
Too late for this lady.
 
Just a quick question to those in the her fault camp.

What should be done to treat addicts then? They cost millions each year,

Send'em to Afganistan. All the treats they could want.
 
I think some of us get tired of people that won't help themselves when others that want to are denied the same help. Some are just ungrateful and spoiled and don't realise the opportunities they have which others don't.

Some people take responsibility for their actions. They are the ones that either don't get addicted in the first place or ones that manage to get clean. Those that blame the drug, their parents or make other excuses just spiral down in self destruction as they are so busy thinking about how they are they don't bother to stop to think how it affects others.

Life is crap for a lot of people. They don't do drugs. Family life is crap for a lot of kids, they don't all turn to crime. The majority of people know full well drugs, alcohol and nicotine are addictive and yet they choose to start using them and then complain they're addicted! It's a choice to start. Getting off your face never blots out the actual cause of your problems. Why do people insist on trying to prove this scientific fact wrong?!

I think there are two groups of people; those that understand addiction and those like me that just don't get it as it is just so obvious as to where it will lead.
 
People have been using mind altering substances since antiquity - at least - and I don't believe that anyone sets out to become an addict.

Nicotine is one of the most addictive substances known, and anyone who starts smoking will, almost inevitably, get hooked quickly. I'm a life long smoker and I've struggled to give up, and always relapsed. The health risks are well known but youngsters still smoke. Why? Curiosity, family example, peer pressure, it's "cool"? I don't know, but I do know that I don't really get any enjoyment out of it. The pleasure is the feeling of relief when the withdrawal symptoms go away, for the time being. Some people do seem to be able to give up more easily than others, but I know quite a lot of former smokers who still get a passing urge to light up years later.

Alcohol doesn't actually taste all that great until you get used to it, and it's incredibly destructive in all sorts of ways, but Britain has a long tradition of heavy boozing and it's not showing any signs of slowing down. Surely no-one wants to be seen staggering around, vomiting in the gutter or all over themselves, picking fights or worrying about what happened the night before, because they only have a vague sense of doing something incredibly stupid. Perhaps they don't care? When does a heavy drinker step over the line into alcoholism and dependency, and why does this only happen to some people? I don't know, but heavy drinking seems to be socially acceptable and certainly isn't demonised.

I can't see why other drugs are viewed differently. They've been used socially, in religious ceremonies and for other purposes for thousands of years, and most of them were legal at some point. The British used military and naval power to force China to open its doors to opium in the C19th to balance its trade relationship. British pharmacies could sell opium until 1908 and cocaine, morphine and heroin until 1917. This wasn't really all that long ago, and LSD was legal for several years after it was first synthesised in the 1960s. Would we feel differently about them if they'd been in common use for centuries, like alcohol and tobacco?

Addiction is complex and not very well understood, but I doubt if it's a lifestyle of choice for anyone. One common denominator seems to be that many younger people feel that they're immortal, and that "it won't happen to me, I can handle it occasionally" until they cross the invisible line into dependency. Addicts seem to be psychologically unable or, at least, unwilling to recognise their own problem which may be part of the drug psychosis too. How many recovering addicts have been through hell, and reach a point where they're clean and their mind tricks them into thinking they can go back to limited use, without risk?

I never listened to Amy Winehouse's music, but I grew up in the 60s when music was associated with the drug culture. People copycat their idols behaviour from choice. Goodbye girl. I hope you enjoyed your short life and find some peace now, whatever it may be.
 
Life is crap for a lot of people. They don't do drugs. Family life is crap for a lot of kids, they don't all turn to crime. The majority of people know full well drugs, alcohol and nicotine are addictive and yet they choose to start using them and then complain they're addicted! It's a choice to start. Getting off your face never blots out the actual cause of your problems. Why do people insist on trying to prove this scientific fact wrong?!

I think there are two groups of people; those that understand addiction and those like me that just don't get it as it is just so obvious as to where it will lead.

Taking a paracetomol does not cure the headache but we take it .. it does however ease the pain and therefore make the duration of the pain easier ... same for a lot of people with addiction problems :(
 
Headless Lois said:
Wow, wandering into OoF certainly gives a different perspective on people you might chat to thinking they were reasonable human beings. Or indeed just human beings, and thus capable of empathy and compassion.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I wouldn't want some of the people on this thread on my jury if I was ever wrongly accused of a serious crime. Ironically they'd all want those of us who're more compassionate on theirs.
 
Just read this thread from the start while ironically enough, waiting for my camera battery to charge before I go out in the sun.

Lots of different opinions that's for sure. Also a lot if daily mail readers in this forum. That's not a criticism. Just an observation.

Anyway. Amy Winehouse. Those saying she deserved to die? Heartless. Nobody deserves to die. Did she contribute to her own demise? Definitely. It's still very sad that a young girl has died.

Those saying addiction is not a disease. Well what blinkered and perfect lives you must have lived. Yes, drug addicts have to start somewhere and yes, the majority of them start taking these drugs of their own free will. It does not change the fact that addiction is a disease both physically and mentally. 'Well she could have stopped any time she wanted'. Ha! Slow hand claps all round. For a bunch of mostly older people, the absence of common sense in this particular debate is nothing short of laughable. 'Well people stop smoking every day'. I am sure they do, and more power to them for having the mental strength to overcome their mental and physical addictions. Not everybody has the capability, some people are not that strong.

At the end of the day, a talented young woman has fallen to her addictions. She leaves behind a family and friends who loved her very much. The behaviour and comments of some of the fully functioning adult members of society in this thread is nothing short of abhorrent. I hope you never have to deal with issues like this within your own family. Because it is a simple fact that some of you will.
 
Anyway. Amy Winehouse. Those saying she deserved to die? Heartless. Nobody deserves to die. Did she contribute to her own demise? Definitely. It's still very sad that a young girl has died.
No one has said she deserved to die, unless I've missed some posts. All we have said is it was probably inevitable.

Not pointing a finger at any specific people but I'm begining to get a feeling we have some current drug users posting in this thread, even if it is on a social/recreational" basis.
 
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I wholeheartedly agree with this. I wouldn't want some of the people on this thread on my jury if I was ever wrongly accused of a serious crime. Ironically they'd all want those of us who're more compassionate on theirs.

Very true...

People have written on how drugs and drink have affected their own lives through a relative's substance abuse, and I can understand where they're coming from. But what made these relatives follow that road in the first place? My own Dad had a drink problem which, I believe, was what ultimately saw him off. Yes, he had some bad points, but they were outnumbered by his good points... Maybe I have that particular genetic make up which means that I could go down the same road, but I don't think so... I looked at him and I think I learned from his mistakes. But does that mean I loved him any less? No way... After all, nobody's perfect.

They say that friends try to help one another through stuff like this. Or at least let it be known that they're always there for each other. It should be the same with family. No amount of punishment is going to make a person turn from what they enjoy (or used to, before addiction took a hold). Rather, it's more than likely to have a reverse effect. Make an example of them? That will never work. Hasn't worked for Pete Doherty, evidently didn't work for Keith Richards back in the 60s and 70s when he used to get busted so much...

Isn't help what we would want if we had mistakenly been led down a similar path ourselves? And if we still screw up, then all others can do, as friends and human(e) beings, is help us try to pick up the pieces afterwards. As long as it's not too late. Sadly, in Amy Winehouse's case, it is too late now, and may she rest in piece, free from whatever demons she may have been running from. THOSE are the things that should have been addressed. Not the chemical abuse, but that which made her turn to them in the first place. And in her wake, I'm sure she not only leaves some good, true friends that would have had it any other way than what's happened, but also two parents who must have loved her dearly...

I read Russell Brand's blog, and while I don't usually go much on a lot of what he has to say, I think he was spot on with what he wrote...

Just my 2p worth...
 
No one has said she deserved to die, unless I've missed some posts. All we have said is it was probably inevitable.

Not pointing a finger at any specific people but I'm beggining to get a feeling we have some current drug users posting in this thread, even if it is on a social/recreational" basis.

Or people that have an understanding and may have seen others suffer ...
 
Just read this thread from the start while ironically enough, waiting for my camera battery to charge before I go out in the sun.

Lots of different opinions that's for sure. Also a lot if daily mail readers in this forum. That's not a criticism. Just an observation.

Anyway. Amy Winehouse. Those saying she deserved to die? Heartless. Nobody deserves to die. Did she contribute to her own demise? Definitely. It's still very sad that a young girl has died.

Those saying addiction is not a disease. Well what blinkered and perfect lives you must have lived. Yes, drug addicts have to start somewhere and yes, the majority of them start taking these drugs of their own free will. It does not change the fact that addiction is a disease both physically and mentally. 'Well she could have stopped any time she wanted'. Ha! Slow hand claps all round. For a bunch of mostly older people, the absence of common sense in this particular debate is nothing short of laughable. 'Well people stop smoking every day'. I am sure they do, and more power to them for having the mental strength to overcome their mental and physical addictions. Not everybody has the capability, some people are not that strong.

At the end of the day, a talented young woman has fallen to her addictions. She leaves behind a family and friends who loved her very much. The behaviour and comments of some of the fully functioning adult members of society in this thread is nothing short of abhorrent. I hope you never have to deal with issues like this within your own family. Because it is a simple fact that some of you will.

I really wish I could "like" individual posts.
 
Just read this thread from the start while ironically enough, waiting for my camera battery to charge before I go out in the sun.

Lots of different opinions that's for sure. Also a lot if daily mail readers in this forum. That's not a criticism. Just an observation.

Anyway. Amy Winehouse. Those saying she deserved to die? Heartless. Nobody deserves to die. Did she contribute to her own demise? Definitely. It's still very sad that a young girl has died.

Those saying addiction is not a disease. Well what blinkered and perfect lives you must have lived. Yes, drug addicts have to start somewhere and yes, the majority of them start taking these drugs of their own free will. It does not change the fact that addiction is a disease both physically and mentally. 'Well she could have stopped any time she wanted'. Ha! Slow hand claps all round. For a bunch of mostly older people, the absence of common sense in this particular debate is nothing short of laughable. 'Well people stop smoking every day'. I am sure they do, and more power to them for having the mental strength to overcome their mental and physical addictions. Not everybody has the capability, some people are not that strong.

At the end of the day, a talented young woman has fallen to her addictions. She leaves behind a family and friends who loved her very much. The behaviour and comments of some of the fully functioning adult members of society in this thread is nothing short of abhorrent. I hope you never have to deal with issues like this within your own family. Because it is a simple fact that some of you will.

The only laughable thing is people thinking diseases can be cured through force of will.
 
I wish I was a drug user kidder. Might help me shed a few pounds.

I have, on the other hand, been around A fair few people that are and have seen first hand how hard it can be to stop. Bit with the help of supportive parents and friends all but one have managed to turn their lives around.

I did lose a very close friend to drugs while at university. Nobody was glad he died, nobody got on their conservative high horse, nobody shook their heads and said how easy it would have been to stop. We just lost a friend to a disease and did everything we could to help his mum and dad at that difficult time.
 
nilagin said:
No one has said she deserved to die, unless I've missed some posts. All we have said is it was probably inevitable.

Not pointing a finger at any specific people but I'm begining to get a feeling we have some current drug users posting in this thread, even if it is on a social/recreational" basis.

I've no idea what the last bit of this is meant to convey, but you probably interact with more drug users every day than you imagine. You might even work with some, or be related to one. I hope to **** if their recreation becomes an addiction they don't ask in here for help.
 
I really wish I could "like" individual posts.

Agreed, apart from this point which is slightly presumptive:

For a bunch of mostly older people, the absence of common sense in this particular debate is nothing short of laughable.

On a side note Marcel, you could always enable the 'Like' facility. I know that it's there in vB4 but not so sure about this version! :)
 
Or people that have an understanding and may have seen others suffer ...

Whilst not on a totally personal footing, I have seen the consequences of people at work who have suffered from their use of drugs or drink.
One bloke actually saw fit to give up a well paid job as a result of taking drugs, he moved away to live with his parents.
We had another bloke who had lied about his medical records when he was employed (the only way our employer could terminate his contract and sack him). Whether he was constantly stoned, I don't know, but he would sit inside the tooling he was building and needing to clean it down would fill it with thinners, literally soaking himself in flammable liquid. He would even eat plastic bonding fillers just to see what they tasted like and the whole time he was either sleeping rough in the subways close to the factory or in the factory toilet cubicles.
We have a bloke in his mid to late thirties who is an alcoholic, he has had previous councelling from the firm and has just spent a fortnight in hospital due to organ failure. In fact we have several alcoholics of various degrees who all work together so are probably feeding off each other as for some it has become necessity whils tothers just see it as acceptable.
One work colleague who works in my department, is highly unstable due to past drug abuse. He suffers from high states of paranoia, he also likes a good drink. This bloke has a 16 yr old daughter who is singing in a girl group. The other night he went to see them perform and yet he felt he had the need to get completely off his face from drink at the performance, he failed to turn up for work the next day and never woke until midmorning.
We have another bloke who literally is now permanently on another planet. He now talks to himself, he'll go and have a lay down on the locker room floor during the middle of the shift and have a sleep, even though he has been caught doing so several times in the past.
We have two other blokes who will have several spliffs throughout the course of a working day ontop of what they will smoke outside of work. They are so hooked on them, they are miserable as sin within minutes of finishing a spliff and are already craving the next.
I've seen more than my liking of drink and drug abuse and I still don't understand it. It's not as if they have come from a world of having nothing and are in a position of havin gto steel for it or anything like that but they are all in a position of having destroyed or given up on a part of their lives which for some has only affected their own lives for others it is affecting their families, friends and work aquaintances.
Forgive me if I have little or any understanding or compassion for anything like drink or drug abuse when it's hard enough coming to terms with the death of my mother from ovarian cancer aged 68, or the recent death of a work colleague age 53 from bowel cancer.
 
Where on earth do you get this from?
Could just be me reading between the lines of people all to ready to make excuses who refuse to see or admit that they are making excuses.:shrug:
 
Forgive me if I have little or any understanding or compassion for anything like drink or drug abuse when it's hard enough coming to terms with the death of my mother from ovarian cancer aged 68, or the recent death of a work colleague age 53 from bowel cancer.

Neil, nothing to forgive at all, your experiences like a lot of people will shape how you see things and feel about things :) you do not come across as totally lacking compassion.
 
I too lost my father ,and a kinder or more helpful man you could ever meet . Took ill on a Saturday night 4 yrs ago and was gone by Sunday afternoon . I think about him every day and miss him greatly . He had no choice in the matter. People who inject or smoke or drink have a choice ,their the one's who put the needle in their arm their the one's who lift that drink to their mouths ,I don't deny that it's hard for people ,but at the end of the day they!! have a choice to live or die ...
 
I can see both sides in this. To a degree I can see addiction as a disease, but there is plenty of help out there if you want it, and if you dont, then you have only yourself to blame. Funnily enough I was watching the Lemmy documentury on BBC4 on Friday, how he isnt dead is a mystery, along with how Keith Richards is still alive!!!

I think there is anger from people though about how people throw their lives away. I get really annoyed seeing women who are 7 months pregnant smoking, when there are people desperate for a baby who for some reason cant have one. By all means smoke yourself, but why harm an unborn baby? Same goes for those idiots who smoke in the car with children kids in there too.
 
Could just be me reading between the lines of people all to ready to make excuses who refuse to see or admit that they are making excuses.:shrug:

Assuming we're discussing drug addiction, why would anyone want to make excuses for it? There's nothing to excuse.
 
Neil, nothing to forgive at all, your experiences like a lot of people will shape how you see things and feel about things :) you do not come across as totally lacking compassion.

Thanks, I think.:lol:
Don't get me wrong I'm not ashamed to admit that at 48 some things will and do bring a tear to my eye or put a lump in my throat. But somethings I do feel strongly about and do anger me to an extent.
My Father smoked, my mum's Dad smoked, both openly at home whilst both my sister and I were growing up. Yet neither of us felt the urge to follow suit. Friends at school would smoke behind the bike sheds, again we never followed suit. I used to drink in moderation, I don't think I have ever been seriously drunk, just a bit merry. My parents would allow me a very weak whisky drink mixed with orange juice as a teenager on a Sunday, but I never became reliant on it. As far as I know drugs were never in use at my school, I certainly never knew of anyone who took drugs, or knew anything of drugs when at school or college during my apprenticeship, yet a workmate of the same age who went to school less than 5 miles away from me and also went to the same college was already dabbling in drugs whilst at secondary school.
He gives me the impression he is in a position of being able to take it or leave it, he certainly isn't a constant user, yet he feels they are a perfectly acceptable part of life even for his sons, so long as they don't smoke their spliffs in the house. He will even make a point of watching programmes or films involving drugs or readin gbooks about famous peoples experiences/lives who are drug users.

Quite why I have formed such a strong aversion I don't know.
 
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