Yet Another Post About the Law

Joenail

Joenail

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Joe
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Yes
I was stopped today by 4 shopping centre security guards for taking pictures near the centre. I'm not at all annoyed at their reason or the fact that they stopped me (someone had complained). What I'm annoyed about is the fact that the policewoman they called destroyed a whole roll of film because of one picture that was near a child & that she knew sweet f/a about the laws of photography;

'NOBODY (including police officers) is allowed to film or photograph ANYTHING in a public place, including CCTV cameras pointing at the street.'

Quite clearly *******s.

I've came to the conclusion that whenever I go out shooting I should carry some form of legal publication bearing the Strathclyde Police logo. I've found various things on the interweb, letters from chief constables, etc, but they all look like they could have easily been forged.

Does anyone know of any such thing or where I could find it?

Cheers,
-J
 
6 photographers have recently tested the right to take photos on a public street in London...interesting to see the comments from Security People and the Police
http://www.dpreview.com/ - a Youtube video

Dave
 
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Joe
Possibly she thought she knew possibly she didn't. The fact is, yep she got it wrong, but in her defence, in spite of what some on here assume, its a very minor part of a Police Officers knowledge, so it's no surprise they get it wrong. I got things wrong in my Policing career, it happens, live with it and stop assuming its something that every Police officer MUST know, its not. Its one of 100's of ever changing laws regulations and guidelines.
 
i have this on a letter.

''Guidance for Photographers

I am writing to you in my capacity as Chair of the ACPO Communications Advisory Group which sits in the Presidential Business Area.

There have been a number of recent instances highlighted in the press where officers have detained photographers and deleted images from their cameras. I seek your support in reminding your officers and staff that they should not prevent anyone from taking photographs in public. This applies equally to members of the media and public seeking to record images, who do not need a permit to photograph or film in public places. ACPO guidance is as follows:

There are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so.....etc etc..

if you wish a copy, PM me your email address
 
@Bernie:
I'm quite aware that it's not a common thing officers have to deal with, and I respect & welcome their concern about anyone taking photographs of children. In my defense, though, it's a police officer's job to know the law. If he/she isn't sure what to do then I'm sure a quick radio call would sort it out. I'm just annoyed about losing all my pictures because she didn't know the proper action to take.

@Dave:
I saw that a few hours ago, some interesting stuff there. It's funny how when they move the tripod 2 feet to the left it's suddenly fine to film/photograph!
 
Joenail said:
What I'm annoyed about is the fact that the policewoman they called destroyed a whole roll of film because of one picture that was near a child
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I had a run in with the law, though not to this extent, so share your frustration. It's worth making a complaint (IMHO) as by destroying the film she has destroyed evidence, if in fact you were commiting an offence, which it sounds like you were not, and the only way things are going to get better is by bringing these issues respectfully to the notice of the relevant authorities.

I have been in contact with my MP over my treatment and the issue of Police and photographers in general - don't know if it will have any effect in the long run but if you don't try ....

My two pennies worth ...
 
Originally Posted by Joenail View Post
What I'm annoyed about is the fact that the policewoman they called destroyed a whole roll of film because of one picture that was near a child
Click to expand...

andybeach said:
I had a run in with the law, though not to this extent, so share your frustration. It's worth making a complaint (IMHO) as by destroying the film she has destroyed evidence, if in fact you were commiting an offence, which it sounds like you were not, and the only way things are going to get better is by bringing these issues respectfully to the notice of the relevant authorities.

I have been in contact with my MP over my treatment and the issue of Police and photographers in general - don't know if it will have any effect in the long run but if you don't try ....

My two pennies worth ...
Click to expand...

Quite. Seriously, do make an official complaint about this. If you were on public land, you had every right to take photos, and she had no right to make you destroy the images.
 
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bit of a glitch with the letter

its on my HDD as an **.odt file under ''Open Office''

how do i attach to an email..? thanks
 
''Chief Constable Andy Trotter, chair of the Association of Chief Police Officers’ Communications Advisory Group (CAG), has written to all chief constables asking them to remind their officers that they have no power to stop photographers taking pictures or to confiscate or delete pictures without a court order''


ok here's the website for you to download the letter...:D
.
http://www.newspapersoc.org.uk/2/sep/10/police-guidance-on-photographers
 
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I must agree that you should lodge a complaint. The Police were overstepping their authority. Its the only way that the Police will change their attitude.
 
Bernie174 said:
Joe
Possibly she thought she knew possibly she didn't. The fact is, yep she got it wrong, but in her defence, in spite of what some on here assume, its a very minor part of a Police Officers knowledge, so it's no surprise they get it wrong. I got things wrong in my Policing career, it happens, live with it and stop assuming its something that every Police officer MUST know, its not. Its one of 100's of ever changing laws regulations and guidelines.
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Get real Bernie.

Being wrong about the law is one thing, but what sane or sensible copper would order the effective destruction of someone's private property* based on their own judgement and without referring it upwards?

* and I'm not talking about a plod using his/her discretion to tell some scrote to get rid of a joint's worth of dope or similar .
 
Bernie174 said:
Joe
Possibly she thought she knew possibly she didn't. The fact is, yep she got it wrong, but in her defence, in spite of what some on here assume, its a very minor part of a Police Officers knowledge, so it's no surprise they get it wrong. I got things wrong in my Policing career, it happens, live with it and stop assuming its something that every Police officer MUST know, its not. Its one of 100's of ever changing laws regulations and guidelines.
Click to expand...

Hardly as if this sort of thing hasn't been in the news recently, so not exactly minor. There have been a number of ACPO statements on the subject that she should have been aware of (see here: http://www.holdthefrontpage.co.uk/2010/news/is-tide-turning-in-favour-of-photographers-rights/) She had no excuse. OK, no peeler can be expected to know all of the law, but she should at least have called in for guidance.
 
Thanks a lot John, just what I was looking for!
I'm going to look into making a complaint tomorrow. If only I'd have been sensible & got her shoulder number :bang:
 
Joeryan
Trust me, its very minor, I can speak from experience, can you? Its only noticeable in the press if you're interested, if you aren't, and most people are not, it isn't.

Demi
It's you that needs to get real. Again, I make the same point to you that I made to Joe. You have no experience of Policing and no idea what gets carried round in a Police Officers head. So I'll tell you, a huge amount! Police officers make mistakes, not that often, but it happens. Usually those mistakes are made for want of doing what seemed reasonable at the time. Until someone fits all 20 odd volumes of Archibold into a Ipad, it's going to keep happening. I made them, again, not often, but thats life.
The photography thing comes way down the list of things to learn and remember, a very long way down. It's just not important, no matter what you think.
In a perfect world, with perfect people, it wouldn't happen, its neither and it does. But lets get this into proportion though, how many million photos are taken in the UK every day? And the best that can be come up with a few of these incidents, less than 20 a year. Like I said, hardly a world shifting problem.
Oh and giving someone the option of getting rid of a joint is just as much a discipline offence as destroying a film. I doubt this incident was a deliberate attempt to stop photography, just a mistake, like I said, whether you (or anyone else) likes it or not, it happens because humans are involved.

Joenail
A sensible response! so, moving on from the outrage by proxy, I'd suggest you write to the Chief Constable of whatever force she was from.
Don't worry about no getting her number, there are so few Police about these days its no problem identifying her, even if shes not (and she probably is) assigned to the call on whatever dispatch system that force uses.
Whether you want to make it a complaint or not is up to you, not those who think they know what they are talking about, but the end result is likely to be the same either way. The officer will get words of advice, Obviously all that will achieve is she wont do the same again.
As for the future, all I can suggest is you try and explain calmly, and ask if the officer could confirm what they think before destroying a film. I'm afraid coming the barrack room lawyer wont help, but that approach might.
 
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The problem is Bernie this is far more than 20 incidents a year, and the only people who get treated like this are people with SLRs, not people who use the camera on their phone

How many words of advice need to be given? We hear so much about Chief Constables sending memos, guidance form the Home Office etc yet nothing appears to be changing
 
DemiLion said:
Being wrong about the law is one thing, but what sane or sensible copper would order the effective destruction of someone's private property* based on their own judgement and without referring it upwards?
Click to expand...

Police officer has no right to destroy anything, if an offence is being committed then a report/arrest should take place and as has been said, the evidence produced. If that had happened to me I would definitely have been making a formal complaint ... what else was on the roll?
 
Bernie, please don't think I am in any way against the police. I do a fair bit of press photography, so tend to be sent to snap incidents where the police are involved, and have had very few problems. But this is just a bit fundamental, isn't it? Anyone may shoot in a public place unless they are harassing or giving reasonable cause for concern. Correct me if I'm wrong here. And the lady cop should know this, shouldn't she?
 
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From what i can see there was an offense committed... criminal damage by the officer. Make a complaint and insist on pressing charges against the individual.

They fact is they look after there own so will squash it pretty fast but worth a go.
 
joe you dont need the number just the time of the incident
 
Joe
No, its not fundamental, which is my point. It's a very very unimportant thing in terms of policing. When you are bombarded by 20 or 30 memos about all sorts of crap every time you go into work, you tend to glaze over, and personally, anything headed ACPO went direct to my deleted folder when I was a Police Officer. Because so much utter crap came from them, everything from them was automatically assumed to be more of the same.
Yes, I know the score with photography, because I have been doing it since early in my Policing career. Other people aren't in the least interested, and if they deal with one of these episodes in 30 years it'd be unusual. To compare it, Rent Act harassment was something I learned at Training school, and 20 years later was the only time I had to deal with one, it only applies to either furnished or unfurnished accommodation, I can't remember which now, and couldn't when I dealt with it, I got it wrong! Why did I get it wrong? Simple it was not an every day occurrence for me, so it got forgotten.
As I said, in a perfect world, of course she'd know, but along with all sorts of other crap, and minor things it gets forgotten or the memo ignored.
In spite of what those who feel they should get outraged by proxy think, a complaint wont stop this happening again, albeit, it will by her.
Yes, you'll get an apology, and probably a new roll of film. She will get words of advice, another memo might get sent, and instantly deleted by many as it is reasonably unimportant in the great scheme of things.
Your attitude has been reasonable on here, and I'm sure of you do the same if this happens again, and do as I suggest you'll probably not have the same outcome.

Rick
No, its probably around 20 incidents like this a year. The others are, someone got stopped and asked what they were doing and didn't like it. And those I'm afraid are a different subject. Again, to use as an example to compare, yes you have a perfect right to take photos in public (well, mostly but its not always true). You also have a right to carry a box marked swag down you local high street at midnight. But I'm sure you'd not be surprised to get stopped and asked what you are doing. Its the same with photography sometimes. I've been stopped and asked, its never been an issue. Unfortunately some people can't see beyond their own narrow view and then those who feel entitled to be outraged by proxy start, and blow it out of proportion.
 
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Sorry but that just doesn't wash, any officer can make a mistake on interpretation of a 'remote' law but taking the action of destroying the roll of film doesn't come into that category ... it's basic.
 
I've briefly looked into making a complaint & it doesn't seem wort it to be honest. The only reason I'd be complaining is because I was briefly annoyed at her & it isn't exactly going to make any positive change. Anyway, as Andy said it'll probably just get squashed anyway.

The roll was nearly full, with maybe 15 good shots there. Nothing spectacular.

At least now I know how to avoid it happening again & not to hand over my camera!
 
Problem with doing nothing is that the same thing could happen to the next tog she comes across!
 
True, but as Bernie said, it isn't very likely that she'll have to deal with that again
 
Bernie174 said:
Oh and giving someone the option of getting rid of a joint is just as much a discipline offence as destroying a film. I doubt this incident was a deliberate attempt to stop photography, just a mistake, like I said, whether you (or anyone else) likes it or not, it happens because humans are involved.
Click to expand...

I take your point that people make mistakes, but are you suggesting the police officer was exercising discretion and attempting to do the OP a favour by destroying the film?

At the very least, a complaint will assist in the education of this officer and her colleagues.

If we, as citizens, do nothing in these situations, then it will surely happen again. The Met seem to be slowly learning the lesson.


To the OP, not Strathclyde Police, but here's the ACPO memo from Andy Trotter last year.

http://floor44.co.uk/wp-content/upl...hotographs-All-Forces-Guidance-26-08-2010.doc

Here's the text.

ACPO said:
26 August 2010


Dear Colleagues

Guidance for Photographers

I am writing to you in my capacity as Chair of the ACPO Communications Advisory Group which sits in the Presidential Business Area.

There have been a number of recent instances highlighted in the press where officers have detained photographers and deleted images from their cameras. I seek your support in reminding your officers and staff that they should not prevent anyone from taking photographs in public. This applies equally to members of the media and public seeking to record images, who do not need a permit to photograph or film in public places. ACPO guidance is as follows:

• There are no powers prohibiting the taking of photographs, film or digital images in a public place. Therefore members of the public and press should not be prevented from doing so.
• We need to cooperate with the media and amateur photographers. They play a vital role as their images help us identify criminals.
• We must acknowledge that citizen journalism is a feature of modern life and police officers are now photographed and filmed more than ever.
• Unnecessarily restricting photography, whether for the casual tourist or professional is unacceptable and it undermines public confidence in the police service.
• Once an image has been recorded, the police have no power to delete or confiscate it without a court order.

If you require further guidance please refer to the ACPO website or contact my Staff Officer Robin Edwards at robin.edwards@btp.pnn.police.uk.


Yours sincerely



Andrew Trotter
Chief Constable
Chair of ACPO Communication Advisory Group
Click to expand...
 
Joenail said:
At least now I know how to avoid it happening again & not to hand over my camera!
Click to expand...

Lesson #1. :)

Might be worth reading this story on Marc Vallée's blog about Sussex Police seizing film under s19 of PACE in August last year.

http://www.marcvallee.co.uk/blog/2010/09/police-seize-protesters-film/

Particularly noteworthy in your case is the statement that Sussex Police made after the event and the careful distinction made between confiscating material and destroying it when defending their action.

Nick Cloke is Head of Media Relations at Sussex Police.

Nick Cloke said:
Sussex Police fully recognises and supports the rights of media and the public to record events, including police activity, in public places. We made no attempt to restrict this – or to delete or permanently confiscate any recorded material – during the march and counter-protect in Brighton yesterday
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[emphasis added]
 
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Not that I disbelieve you but,

1/ How did the female police office know you had taken an image "that was near a child"?

2/ I find it incredible the this female police officer knew how to open up and remove the film from the camera.

3/ Knowing the law as you do, you stood there and let her do it!
 
Joenail said:
I've came to the conclusion that whenever I go out shooting I should carry some form of legal publication bearing the Strathclyde Police logo. I've found various things on the interweb, letters from chief constables, etc, but they all look like they could have easily been forged.

Does anyone know of any such thing or where I could find it?
Click to expand...

Doesn't make the blindest bit of difference, they'll either a) refuse to take it from you/read it, or b) read it, but ignore it.

If you refuse to comply with the request they'll just do you for Breach of the Peace.

I speak from experience ;)
 
IIRC Breach of the Peace is rather more widely drawn north of the border.
 
Musicman said:
IIRC Breach of the Peace is rather more widely drawn north of the border.
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Up here it applies if an officer thinks you are acting in a manner "enough to cause alarm, annoyance or disturbance to the lieges", a liege in this case being a police officer or a member of the general public.

So that basically covers pretty much everything.....
 
film? ...:exit:

:thumbs:


doing a fair amount of press photography in 2011.....:shrug:
 
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Bernie174 said:
Demi
It's you that needs to get real. Again, I make the same point to you that I made to Joe. You have no experience of Policing and no idea what gets carried round in a Police Officers head. So I'll tell you, a huge amount! Police officers make mistakes, not that often, but it happens. Usually those mistakes are made for want of doing what seemed reasonable at the time. Until someone fits all 20 odd volumes of Archibold into a Ipad, it's going to keep happening. I made them, again, not often, but thats life.
The photography thing comes way down the list of things to learn and remember, a very long way down. It's just not important, no matter what you think.
In a perfect world, with perfect people, it wouldn't happen, its neither and it does. But lets get this into proportion though, how many million photos are taken in the UK every day? And the best that can be come up with a few of these incidents, less than 20 a year. Like I said, hardly a world shifting problem.
Oh and giving someone the option of getting rid of a joint is just as much a discipline offence as destroying a film. I doubt this incident was a deliberate attempt to stop photography, just a mistake, like I said, whether you (or anyone else) likes it or not, it happens because humans are involved.
Click to expand...


Where did I mention photography?

I fully accept that your average beat police officer isn't going to carry a compendium of law around in their head, however I think that you might be slightly out of touch with the modern force. It's completely unacceptable for a constable of any rank to demand that someone destroy their own property, no matter what the circumstance.

I'm not outraged or on any form of bandwagon, but even a probationer fresh out of training should be capable of recognising how wrong that is.
 
Whilst I except that a police officer can't know every law, they do all have means to get extra information if they need it.

And unless more people make formal complaints these things will just carry on.
 
Good reply 'admirable' - I must coment on your point #3 and agree

admirable said:
Not that I disbelieve you but,

1/ How did the female police office know you had taken an image "that was near a child"?

2/ I find it incredible the this female police officer knew how to open up and remove the film from the camera.

3/ Knowing the law as you do, you stood there and let her do it!
Click to expand...

Indeed. I wouldn't have let a police officer delete my images or destroy my film. I would actually physically resist them from doing so as I know the law and they have no right to do so with out a court order. In this case I have no sympathy for the OP.
 
It isn't rocket science to know how to remove a roll of film from a camera, on most it's simply slide a button and pull!
And even knowing it is wrong, how many togs would really wrestle with a police officer, and a woman at that, to stop them removing the film?
 
Bernie, although I am a retired Met officer, I agree with Musicman. I think a formal complaint is the correct course. Not to get the particular officer into trouble, but a drip drip feed of similar complaints to the Police will eventually get the message across. If no-one ever complains, it will be assumed that there is no problem.
I totally agree that in the scheme of things, this is a minor matter and Police do have more serious issues to deal with, but thats an explanation, not an excuse.
 
I'm not about to have a go at cops. I'm sure there are good ones and bad ones as in any walk of life. I also have to deal with them from time to time during the course of my work and know they have a difficult job. However.... the actions of this police woman disturbs me. Clearly the OP has felt intimidated enough for to hand over his camera and let his work be destroyed. If only to make sure this officer is chastised for her actions, a formal complaint should be made and an apology sought. I'd also be seeking compensation for the cost of a roll of film so that I could return to the same spot and do a re-shoot if necessary.
 
You should complain - end of! It's one thing for this policewoman to have the wrong end of the stick with regard to photography in public places, but quite another to take it to the extent of deleting your images.

Did she take your camera and delete the images or did she demand that you do so - it's not at all clear? I'm sorry, but it's pretty dumb to stand there and let her get away with this when you knew full well she was in the wrong.

You should complain - long and loud- she sounds like a complete dipstick, but you were a complete wuss for not standing your ground.
 
Bernie
I do not know about all police forces but in Cambs all the officers carry a smart phone with internet access and when I was being interviewed as a witness I saw an officer check a point of law.
I conclude officers have access to all the references needed and as courts have been known to tell civilians "ignorance of the law is no excuse"
 
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