Will we stay or will we go?

[dejongj]

It's hardly neuroscience.

Well I'm man enough to admit that I can't do it. I wouldn't have a Scooby on how to make a straight wall. I'm confident that I could learn and educate myself on how to do it, and given lots of time I'll build up quite a bit of experience and learn the real tricks on how to do it...Hmm wait a minute wouldn't that make me skilled in that job?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Well I'm man enough to admit that I can't do it. I wouldn't have a Scooby on how to make a straight wall. I'm confident that I could learn and educate myself on how to do it, and given lots of time I'll build up quite a bit of experience and learn the real tricks on how to do it...Hmm wait a minute wouldn't that make me skilled in that job?

And so could British people...they do have brains.

I really think we ought to believe in our own people more.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

Hahahahahahaha.

Imagine that. It's fine for people immigrating here to cling to their communities and establish ghettos but it's not ok for an old dude living in Spain to call an English speaking plumber.

No one is saying that are they.

 

[boyfalldown]

Go into a few stores. It's obvious.

Thats a no then?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Thats a no then?

<facepalm>

Just go in to a few an observe.

 

[boyfalldown]

<facepalm>

Just go in to a few an observe.

still a no then? Come on you've stated it. Prove it.

 

[viv1969]

It's hardly neuroscience.

It is far from unskilled.

What about an electrician? Plumber? Carpenters?
All also unskilled?

 

[SFTPhotography]

It is far from unskilled.

What about an electrician? Plumber? Carpenters?
All also unskilled?

And you don't think we can train people in the UK to do these jobs and get British people into these roles...

 

[boyfalldown]

And you don't think we can train people in the UK to do these jobs and get British people into these roles...

Nothing stopping them doing just that & it's not as though the demand isn't there for skilled, reliable tradespeople

 

[dejongj]

And so could British people...they do have brains.

I really think we ought to believe in our own people more.

What a lot of tosh....Or perhaps not as I am here

But seriously, there is nothing stopping a British person of being the best, and the vast majority of people working in Brittain are ahem British But you can imagine the response;

Employer: I really like to employ British people
Employee: Brilliant, my mum and dad have a British passport and thus I am
Employer: Great, but you don't have the experience and qualifications so I will have to train you up
Employee: Fantastic, I'm all up for training. Really appreciate that. Cheers mate, that is min init.
Employer: Super we are all agreed, as you are a trainee I won't pay you the full rate and you'll be on a two year probation to demonstrate that you learn and can do the job
Employee: f*** that man, its the foreigners stealing our jobs. It's because I iz British init mate
Employer: Oh just f*** off and stop wasting my time

 

[cambsno]

I'm sure in the cases of relatively unskilled jobs like working in a supermarket or laying bricks the best person doesn't have to come from over 1000miles. We get perfectly good staff in our Glasgow office from wait for it...Glasgow.

So why do people take on 'non English'? I can tell you why, its because they are the best person for the job. I have recruited people into teams for years and my sole goal is to get someone I think will do the job. Best person wins - as if I take on someone crap it affects my earnings and potentially my job! Now, for what I recruit, being able to read and write English to a high standard is essential, but when I recruited 2 people in the summer one was a Pole as he perfomed well at a CBI interview, business case test and role play.

Only a fool would take someone less skilled, and I couldnt care who I take on if they can do the job. If people are moaning about losing a job to a Pole then they should take responsibilty and show the right attitude and behaviours.

 

[Phil V]

Why is a foreign person more capable than a British person. I'm sure I won't like the answer.

I think it's time if we are out the EU employers will have to employ local people.

As I said earlier, British people are skilled, capable and able to work. Why not believe in ourselves and our people. Just a thought.

I don't think I'm arguing that foreigners are in any way better, but they might put up with behaviour from employers that we won't. Unions are the answer to that, but we've killed that off.

 

[Phil V]

Do you ever post without trying to be condescending *****

I see you chose not to respond to the point proving you'd plucked a 'dact'out of thin air.

 

[SFTPhotography]

What a lot of tosh....Or perhaps not as I am here

But seriously, there is nothing stopping a British person of being the best, and the vast majority of people working in Brittain are ahem British But you can imagine the response;

Employer: I really like to employ British people
Employee: Brilliant, my mum and dad have a British passport and thus I am
Employer: Great, but you don't have the experience and qualifications so I will have to train you up
Employee: Fantastic, I'm all up for training. Really appreciate that. Cheers mate, that is min init.
Employer: Super we are all agreed, as you are a trainee I won't pay you the full rate and you'll be on a two year probation to demonstrate that you learn and can do the job
Employee: f*** that man, its the foreigners stealing our jobs. It's because I iz British init mate
Employer: Oh just f*** off and stop wasting my time

I really do think thats an inaccurate portrayal of British young people.

 

[Phil V]

Go into a few stores. It's obvious.

Not round here

Our retail stores are all staffed by Brits. Lots of warehouses and food prep plants though are full of Eastern Europeans.

 

[SFTPhotography]

. Lots of warehouses and food prep plants though are full of Eastern Europeans.

And cannot British people work in warehouses and food prep plants. With 2mil unemployed...

 

[boyfalldown]

And cannot British people work in warehouses and food prep plants. With 2mil unemployed...

so why don't/can't they. No-one stops them

 

[Nod]

They can but many won't because the feel it's somehow beneath them.

 

[SFTPhotography]

so why don't/can't they. No-one stops them

I believe they are undercut. Cut out the undercutting and we can get more British people working

 

[viv1969]

And you don't think we can train people in the UK to do these jobs and get British people into these roles...

Evasion.
Answer the question without asking another.
Do you consider plumbers, electricians and carpenters to be unskilled jobs?

 

[boyfalldown]

I believe they are undercut. Cut out the undercutting and we can get more British people working

Theres a minimum wages in this country. Undercutting that is illegal and needs reporting. Do you think they undercut that and what do you base that on?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Evasion.
Answer the question without asking another.
Do you consider plumbers, electricians and carpenters to be unskilled jobs?

Why not answer mine, as its much more relevant and less personal to my view point. Why cannot we get British people into these trades and why import trained Polish tradesmen rather than train our own.

Not investing in our own people will be the death of Britain.

 

[SFTPhotography]

But how do you know whether they are recruited from abroad or were already in the country? Further more, as ALDI has been in existence for many decades perhaps some of those members of staff have a distinct advantage called prior experience I know I would favour an experienced person over one that hasn't all things equal.

Plenty of people in the UK have worked in a supermarket or shop.

 

[big soft moose]

its nothing to do with undercutting , its to do with a lot of british poor (though not all of them by any means) not wanting to work if it means grafting - for example a friend of mine runs a dairy farm , He wanted to hire two dairy hands on circa £7 hour plus accommodation, bills, and full board - he had lots of expressions of interest from the local unemployed until they discovered that it meant a 4am start in summer phasing to a 6am start in winter ... once that information was shared hardly any of them applied

he eventually appointed two - one then didn't turn up, while the other was lazy and recalcitrant and got fired in the first week

so he advertised internationally (on a website that runs for that purpose) and appointed a Pole and a Hungarian , both of whom have worked flawlessly since

 

[dejongj]

I really do think thats an inaccurate portrayal of British young people.

Well obviously it is a little dramatized for maximum effect, I could have chosen a youngster who provided facial ballistic trauma to the employer as another method of dramatization. The drama isn't the point.

Are you seriously suggesting an employer should pay full wack for someone who hasn't got any experience, hasn't got the skills, whilst investing in training them up. Yet pay another candidate exactly the same money as the trainee but are fully experience and trained and in everyway ready for the job? Would you do that as an employer? I'm sure you'd be very popular, in a way it is admirable. Not so certain it makes good business sense.

 

[big soft moose]

Why cannot we get British people into these trades and why import trained Polish tradesmen rather than train our own..

we do get british people into those jobs where they have both the intelligence and the aptitude - but we don't have enough who do, so we need to also import skilled trades from overseas - most of the 2 million unemployed are unemployed because they don't have the aptitude/intelligence/ability to do those skilled roles and are thus dependent on short term menial work

another friend of mine is a tree surgeon - hes been advertising for an apprentice for over a month (offering basic pay but full training into what can be a very lucrative career) , so far he hasn't see anybody worth employing, with the biggest failing being entitlement attitudes and an unwillingness to graft

 

[dejongj]

Plenty of people in the UK have worked in a supermarket or shop.

So why would employers not hire them then if they are the best?

 

[SFTPhotography]

Well obviously it is a little dramatized for maximum effect, I could have chosen a youngster who provided facial ballistic trauma to the employer as another method of dramatization. The drama isn't the point.

Are you seriously suggesting an employer should pay full wack for someone who hasn't got any experience, hasn't got the skills, whilst investing in training them up. Yet pay another candidate exactly the same money as the trainee but are fully experience and trained and in everyway ready for the job? Would you do that as an employer? I'm sure you'd be very popular, in a way it is admirable. Not so certain it makes good business sense.

No, but most young people would love the chance of a training/career even if it doesn't mean full whack pay initially.

 

[SFTPhotography]

So why would employers not hire them then if they are the best?

Really? Best. Plenty of great people in the local market. Invest in them, they can be the best. I happen to think that foreign companies that trade here should employ people here and put back into the country to which they operate.

 

[dejongj]

so why don't/can't they. No-one stops them

I believe they are undercut. Cut out the undercutting and we can get more British people working

If it is undercut as in paying too below minimum wage, then that is illegal. Discussing edge cases in a general discussion is rather pointless.

If you mean that an employer can get skilled and experienced staff for a good price then what is the problem? Market valuations for all sorts of activity changes all the time.

 

[dejongj]

Really? Best. Plenty of great people in the local market. Invest in them, they can be the best. I happen to think that foreign companies that trade here should employ people here and put back into the country to which they operate.

And who says, besides in your opinion, that employers don't do that?

 

[SFTPhotography]

If it is undercut as in paying too below minimum wage, then that is illegal. Discussing edge cases in a general discussion is rather pointless.

If you mean that an employer can get skilled and experienced staff for a good price then what is the problem? Market valuations for all sorts of activity changes all the time.

I believe if you operate in a country, you should try employ people from that country.

 

[SFTPhotography]

And who says, besides in your opinion, that employers don't do that?

Obvious innit.

 

[dejongj]

I believe if you operate in a country, you should try employ people from that country.

And you know that they haven't tried that and aren't doing that because ....

 

[viv1969]

Why not answer mine, as its much more relevant and less personal to my view point. Why cannot we get British people into these trades and why import trained Polish tradesmen rather than train our own.

Not investing in our own people will be the death of Britain.

We train some of the finest tradesmen in the world, but yiu cannot force people into undertaking that training; so when demand outstrips local supply, and migrants possess the relevant skills, why shouldn't employers take advantage of that?

So, are you afraid to answer my question because you realise your initial appraisal of bricklaying was ludicrous, or are you seriously saying that manual labour, by its very definition, is unskilled?

 

[big soft moose]

No, but most young people would love the chance of a training/career even if it doesn't mean full whack pay initially.

umm

another friend of mine is a tree surgeon - hes been advertising for an apprentice for over a month (offering basic pay but full training into what can be a very lucrative career) , so far he hasn't see anybody worth employing, with the biggest failing being entitlement attitudes and an unwillingness to graft

 

[OldCarlos]

If it's not prejudice then what made you type the utter drivel about us being only able to trade with the EU?

You were the one that first posted a prejudiced comment.

Thing is, if you post something that is so ridiculously untrue as fact, you are going to be called on it.

Both yourself & Phil know what I was getting at, (although not worded correctly by myself) we are discussing the cosy little club that restricts trade with the rest of the world & we have to pay 10-15 BILLION £'s a year, to be a member of! (Oh and please stop splitting hairs, point scoring & trying to be clever)


Any comment on the main points in the comment I posted below?;

It isn't a case of singling out any nationality in particular, it is purely about the numbers & about the UK having control of our own borders.

What is so wrong with having a points system?

Apart from anything else, NO ONE in the UK (apart from self serving politicians) voted for what the EU has become & will only get worse

 

[big soft moose]

So, are you afraid to answer my question because you realise your initial appraisal of bricklaying was ludicrous, or are you seriously saying that manual labour, by its very definition, is unskilled?

that is the prevailing prejudice - that intelligent people work with their minds, while thickies work with their hands ... but do we really want thickies doing our electrics or fitting our gas central heating ? (also when you look at renumeration a good sparky can make as much as many white collar careers). End of the day i'm with Ruth here , most manual trades take a degree of skill and intellect- it may not be neurosurgery, but it isnt trolley pushing or working in macdonalds either

 

[OldCarlos]

I see you chose not to respond to the point proving you'd plucked a 'dact'out of thin air.

I don't know what a `dact` is, but also which point did I choose not to respond to?

If you are referring to schools, housing, the NHS, social services, welfare etc being under massive pressure, they are!

 

[Phil V]

I believe they are undercut. Cut out the undercutting and we can get more British people working

You might 'believe' they're undercut, but there's no evidence to support that.
In fact statistically immigration increases as the economy improves, and wages do too. Some on the left suggest that supports immigration has a positive effect on wages. As a realist id just say it's bloody obvious.

Better economy = attractive destination and availability of jobs

Better economy = more jobs = fewer unemployed = higher wages.