Will we stay or will we go?

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But the fourth reich is what we have now. Germany is one the most influential countries. We are insignificant by comparison in Europe.
 
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big soft moose said:
i think he meant gets to rule the whole eu - although the rise of the fourth reich doesnt really appeal to me
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I did mean who gets to rule all the EU. I indentify with Orban, Marie Le Penna and Nigel Farage in terms of immigration policies. I resent your comments about the fourth Reich as they are no where near the policies of Adolf Hitler.
 
except that nothing in europe is significant compared to Russia and the US ,
 
big soft moose said:
except that nothing in europe is significant compared to Russia and the US ,
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Tell that to the refugees who would rather come here ;) it is the largest single market now and so on.
 
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ST4 said:
I did mean who gets to rule all the EU. I indentify with Orban, Marie Le Penna and Nigel Farage in terms of immigration policies. I resent your comments about the fourth Reich as they are no where near the policies of Adolf Hitler.
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Farrage and Orban arent quite so bad but Le Penna and the Front National are practically fascists , her father Jean-Marie once described the holocaust and death camps as being 'an insignificant detail of history'
 
dejongj said:
Tell that to the refugees who would rather come here ;) it is the largest single market now and so on.
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yes but millitarily , the americans could squash the combined forces europe and not notice , and without american aid they would struggle to stand against the russians for long - so its hardly a fourth reich
 
Phil V said:
But TBH, whilst it's easy to see what the EU 'costs' it's more difficult to quantify the monetary benefits of being a member, and that's made more difficult by the politics involved.

It should be obvious to everyone that our trade relationships will change if we leave the EU, but only a real genius or an idiot could put a £figure on it.
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Nor is it helped by the EU not having produced audited/certified accounts for 2 decades ................... that is a rotten smell, for sure.

28 member states (more in the pipeline) and only 5 pay in more dosh than they take out (of which the UK is the 2nd highest net contributor). That is a bad deal.

Without the UK, the remaining 4 net contributors will need to contribute more and/or the 23 members that get out more dosh than they put in will need to make do with less. Sounds like 27 unhappy bunnies. I think that is why they don't want the UK to leave.
 
Personally I'll be voting to stay in the EU, but I think it'll be a close run affair ala Scottish Independence. I also think the slim majority will be to stay in - oracle mode there!
 
big soft moose said:
yes but millitarily , the americans could squash the combined forces europe and not notice , and without american aid they would struggle to stand against the russians for long - so its hardly a fourth reich
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Hmm it is 2015 is that really significant? Does that really help them win a war be it Russia or America? The world has changed.

Besides, we've got the most jihadists :p And then there is my dad with his army. He'll be yours :p
 
Farage couldn't run a bath :LOL:
 
Cobra said:
Have a little respect for our next PM,
at least he doesn't go around porking pigs :D
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Don't knock it until you try it! Oh, wait a minute :eek:
 
Cobra said:
Have a little respect for our next PM,
at least he hasn't yet been caught porking pigs :D
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FTFY ;)

(And yet to hear/see any credible evidence that Dave did either :-) )
 
It started off OK and in 1975 I can remember voting to stay in what was then the EEC or common market, but It has morphed into something it was never designed to be. Unless of course it was designed to be, but they just didn't tell us about it?

It has turned into a wannabe United States of Europe that can't make it's mind up if the HQ is in Brussels or Strasbourg. Nice idea, such a pity about the almost complete lack of democracy. I think enough is enough for me.
 
viv1969 said:
(And yet to hear/see any credible evidence that Dave did either :) )
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Who cares if its true or not, he's a politician and there for open to ridicule :D
 
bindex said:
Unless of course it was designed to be, but they just didn't tell us about it?
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Politicians hiding, suppressing or other wise disguising the truth?
Surely not!
 
Just out of curiosity, I've added a poll.
one man ( or woman) one vote, 1st past the post wins.
Can't say fairer than that now can I ? ;)
 
viv1969 said:
FTFY ;)

(And yet to hear/see any credible evidence that Dave did either :) )
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I'm just throwing this out there...

Do you think if someone made a slanderous accusation about a sitting MP that was untrue they'd be very quick to sue?

It seems to be the case in recent years that even when they know they're in the wrong, if they think there's a slim chance there's not enough evidence to prove them wrong they'll sue - of course I could be maligning the bloke, but it strikes me as odd that a senior public figure would make unsubstantiated allegations about someone where the risk could cost them millions or land them in jail. For an intelligent person, that'd be an odd thing to do.

So IMHO the balance of probability is fairly strong on this occasion.
 
ST4 said:
^^^^

This. It has changed so much from what we originally voted to join that another vote on the matter is the only fair and democratic option.
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We never voted to join - the Tories just signed us in without asking ;)

We voted to stay in when we got the opportunity - granted by a Labour government:D

Thatcher signed the Maastricht treaty which created the mission creep - without considering our opinions.

Just to keep things nice and factual.:D
 
Phil V said:
I'm just throwing this out there...

Do you think if someone made a slanderous accusation about a sitting MP that was untrue they'd be very quick to sue?

It seems to be the case in recent years that even when they know they're in the wrong, if they think there's a slim chance there's not enough evidence to prove them wrong they'll sue - of course I could be maligning the bloke, but it strikes me as odd that a senior public figure would make unsubstantiated allegations about someone where the risk could cost them millions or land them in jail. For an intelligent person, that'd be an odd thing to do.

So IMHO the balance of probability is fairly strong on this occasion.
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Or as it is such a non story and event it's just not worth it as the prime minister to get into s legal battle over it when that risks the truly juicy stuff to come out ;)
 
Phil V said:
We never voted to join - the Tories just signed us in without asking ;)

We voted to stay in when we got the opportunity - granted by a Labour government:D

Thatcher signed the Maastricht treaty which created the mission creep - without considering our opinions.

Just to keep things nice and factual.:D
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The Tories signed up to a free trade agreement, a good thing. What it has morphed into...maybe not for us.

Just for facts and balance. Labour signed the Lisbon agreement.

The Tories are giving us a vote to leave.
 
Phil V said:
We never voted to join - the Tories just signed us in without asking ;)

We voted to stay in when we got the opportunity - granted by a Labour government:D

Thatcher signed the Maastricht treaty which created the mission creep - without considering our opinions.

Just to keep things nice and factual.:D
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What was it Tony Bliar signed us up for in 2007 thought he had a big hand in the EU
 
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Cobra said:
Just out of curiosity, I've added a poll.
one man ( or woman) one vote, 1st past the post wins.
Can't say fairer than that now can I ? ;)
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LBC ( a national station, but very much London orientated) ran a pole a while back (before the flood of immigrants into Europe hit the headlines) and the result was approx. 70% out and 30% stay in.
 
Phil V said:
I'm just throwing this out there...

Do you think if someone made a slanderous accusation about a sitting MP that was untrue they'd be very quick to sue?

It seems to be the case in recent years that even when they know they're in the wrong, if they think there's a slim chance there's not enough evidence to prove them wrong they'll sue - of course I could be maligning the bloke, but it strikes me as odd that a senior public figure would make unsubstantiated allegations about someone where the risk could cost them millions or land them in jail. For an intelligent person, that'd be an odd thing to do.

So IMHO the balance of probability is fairly strong on this occasion.
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Oh I'm not disagreeing.
But the chances are that we will now never truly know, and I've no issue with that at all.

The story has all but disappeared already, and anyone in politics who seriously keeps raising it will merely come across as so juvenile as to be not taken seriously themselves.

Brushing it off is possibly the smartest thing Mr Cameron has done in a long time.
 
Out!!
 
I'd like to stay in, I think I've mentioned before how this region gets more form EU funding than it does from London, but I can see the result being to leave.
 
I will vote to leave but think when it comes to it, the public will vote to stay... we don't like change!!!

If we leave WE can be in control again, be it borders, laws and regulations... don't get me wrong, some EU led things have been good, but at the £8bn or whatever cost per year???? No way.

Trade will hardly suffer. Do we have trade restrictions with USA or Australia, or China (I don't know, but doesnt seem to be so). The French trade happily outside the EU so I can't see it harming us. We have one of the best economies in the EU so EU firms will still want to sell here, and the UK market is big for many so they won't allow trade to be affected.Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU and seem to do ok.
 
cambsno said:
I will vote to leave but think when it comes to it, the public will vote to stay... we don't like change!!!

If we leave WE can be in control again, be it borders, laws and regulations... don't get me wrong, some EU led things have been good, but at the £8bn or whatever cost per year???? No way.

Trade will hardly suffer. Do we have trade restrictions with USA or Australia, or China (I don't know, but doesnt seem to be so). The French trade happily outside the EU so I can't see it harming us. We have one of the best economies in the EU so EU firms will still want to sell here, and the UK market is big for many so they won't allow trade to be affected.Norway and Switzerland are not part of the EU and seem to do ok.
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£20Bn cost, and £8Bn of that coming back at us but without say as to where that is being spend on.
 
arclight said:
Nor is it helped by the EU not having produced audited/certified accounts for 2 decades ................... that is a rotten smell, for sure.

28 member states (more in the pipeline) and only 5 pay in more dosh than they take out (of which the UK is the 2nd highest net contributor). That is a bad deal.

Without the UK, the remaining 4 net contributors will need to contribute more and/or the 23 members that get out more dosh than they put in will need to make do with less. Sounds like 27 unhappy bunnies. I think that is why they don't want the UK to leave.
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It is the per person net contribution that matters, not the total. As we are one of the largest and most wealthy nations in the EU, it stands to reason our total contribution will be amongst the largest.
 
viv1969 said:
Oh I'm not disagreeing.
But the chances are that we will now never truly know, and I've no issue with that at all.

The story has all but disappeared already, and anyone in politics who seriously keeps raising it will merely come across as so juvenile as to be not taken seriously themselves.

Ensuring he had very close friends in the media to protect him from these issues is the smartest thing Mr Cameron has done in a long time.
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FTFY ;)
 
ST4 said:
The Tories signed up to a free trade agreement, a good thing. What it has morphed into...maybe not for us.

Just for facts and balance. Labour signed the Lisbon agreement.

The Tories are giving us a vote to leave.
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The EEC was more than just a free trade agreement, which is why the following government gave us a choice on it.

The Lisbon treaty was no more mission creep than the Maastricht treaty, for balance.

And both major parties promised a referendum following the last election... Again for balance.
 
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