Will fox hunting be legal again?

Well, the SNP have agreed to support Labour on fox-hunting. So, with Cameron having a tiny majority and many within his party being against fox-hunting, there's almost no way the ban will be repealed.
 
ghoti said:
Well, the SNP have agreed to support Labour on fox-hunting. So, with Cameron having a tiny majority and many within his party being against fox-hunting, there's almost no way the ban will be repealed.
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And we pay these people.
 
ghoti said:
Well, the SNP have agreed to support Labour on fox-hunting. So, with Cameron having a tiny majority and many within his party being against fox-hunting, there's almost no way the ban will be repealed.
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Knowing the way politics works I bet that it's only to "make the Tories lose". Really wish they would vote on principle rather than party politics. Fair play to the Tories who will vote against it even though I disagree with them. It was also refreshing to see harman not oppose some of the spending plans from the budget instead of just blindly disagreeing.
 
cambsno said:
Knowing the way politics works I bet that it's only to "make the Tories lose". Really wish they would vote on principle rather than party politics.
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Well, there's a bit of that I imagine. The SNP spokesperson, in announcing that they'd vote on foxhunting, pointed out that the tories voted down amendments to the Scotland act that were supported by 58 out of 59 Scottish MPs. So, effectively, their mandate to make decisions for Scotland was overruled by (mostly) English Conservatives. So there certainly is a bit of "have a taste of your own medicine".

But it's also an issue of conscience.
 
ghoti said:
Well, there's a bit of that I imagine. The SNP spokesperson, in announcing that they'd vote on foxhunting, pointed out that the tories voted down amendments to the Scotland act that were supported by 58 out of 59 Scottish MPs. So, effectively, their mandate to make decisions for Scotland was overruled by (mostly) English Conservatives. So there certainly is a bit of "have a taste of your own medicine".

But it's also an issue of conscience.
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I disagree.
I believe it's 100% gamesmanship.
 
viv1969 said:
I disagree.
I believe it's 100% gamesmanship.
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For that to be true you'd have to believe that no SNP MP believed, or was influenced to any degree whatsoever by the belief, that foxhunting was unethical.
Which would be a bold position.
 
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Beagles are tracking dogs used to locate game such as hares/rabbits, deer etc, also make good sniffer dogs (to locate illegal substances such as drugs) as opposed to foxhounds

anyway just heard the SNP is to join Labour to oppose proposals re foxhunting, so my money's on nothing happening
 
ghoti said:
For that to be true you'd have to believe that no SNP MP believed, or was influenced to any degree whatsoever by the belief, that foxhunting was unethical.
Which would be a bold position.
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Let's put it this way.
If the conservatives announced that they had found a way of rounding up every single paedophile in the country, quickly, safely and cheaply, the SNP would vote against it simply on the principle that the conservatives came up with it.
 
ghoti said:
Well, the SNP have agreed to support Labour on fox-hunting. So, with Cameron having a tiny majority and many within his party being against fox-hunting, there's almost no way the ban will be repealed.
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The whips have got their work cut out then. There's at least one Labour MP who's pro fox-hunting too, so the Tories might be able to carry it if they can rein in their own backbenchers.
 
BBC reporting it differently.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33520547

The repeal of the ban wasn't due until later in this parliament - the current motion is to relax the current ban to permit the use of more dogs. This hasn't been pulled but postponed, presumably until they can get the mooted reform about Scottish MPs voting on devolved matters. Without the SNP votes, the Tories will probably get the bill through.
 
I don't stalk the Mods on Facebook (honest!) so I didn't know that ;)
 
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ghoti said:
Well, the SNP have agreed to support Labour on fox-hunting. So, with Cameron having a tiny majority and many within his party being against fox-hunting, there's almost no way the ban will be repealed.
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Whilst I appreciate that that is how it works, it is clear to me that Scotland shouldn't be able to vote on England and Wales matters. It is not their concern. But hey ho that is the way it is.
 
I foresee a whole new argument being repeated ...
 
dejongj said:
Whilst I appreciate that that is how it works, it is clear to me that Scotland shouldn't be able to vote on England and Wales matters. It is not their concern. But hey ho that is the way it is.
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Which is why this was a masterful trap by Cameron and Sturgeon has foolishly walked right into it.

Cameron had little chance passing this bill at this time, but Sturgeon has now strengthened his hand when it comes to the reform of parliament's voting.
 
Llamaman said:
BBC reporting it differently.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-33520547

The repeal of the ban wasn't due until later in this parliament - the current motion is to relax the current ban to permit the use of more dogs. This hasn't been pulled but postponed, presumably until they can get the mooted reform about Scottish MPs voting on devolved matters. Without the SNP votes, the Tories will probably get the bill through.
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Even under the government's 'English votes for English laws' proposals, the SNP would be able to vote against relaxing the ban.
 
Paul Griffin said:
Even under the government's 'English votes for English laws' proposals, the SNP would be able to vote against relaxing the ban.
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How is that?
 
dejongj said:
How is that?
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Because - if I have understood correctly - the current suggestion for EVEL is that there would be an initial vote by English MPs to accept or veto a bill before it is presented to the wider house. So EVEL will allow English Tory MPs to veto private members bills tabled by Labour & SNP, but likewise Labour & SNP can still vote against bills presented by the government.

Sturgeon's ill-advised intervention on this issue might embolden the Tories to go further and remove the SNPs ability to do this.
 
dejongj said:
How is that?
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Something that relates exclusively to England or to England and Wales (in the Speaker's opinion) would require a double majority. A motion would pass only if a majority of MPs and a majority of MPs representing England (or England and Wales) voted in favour. So if a majority of MPs voted against, the motion would not pass even if a majority of English MPs voted in favour. Likewise if a majority of MPs voted in favour but a majority of English MPs voted against, the motion would not pass. The proposals would give English MPs a veto on issues relating exclusively to England, nothing more.
 
dejongj said:
Whilst I appreciate that that is how it works, it is clear to me that Scotland shouldn't be able to vote on England and Wales matters. It is not their concern. But hey ho that is the way it is.
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and what about when the goverment makes changes that affects us even though we don't want it. can't have it both ways and you either work with a union or you get rid of it. The tories are really trying to have their cake and eat it.

SNP didn't vote on E&W matters in the past but that was with only very small number of members, now there is significant numbers cameron realiases they could well get f***ed over on free votes.
 
POAH said:
how is it ill advised? They are doing their job
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Because the relaxation bill would probably not have passed anyway, and she has now just given her enemies in Westminster another handful of ammunition to fire at her.
 
POAH said:
and what about when the goverment makes changes that affects us even though we don't want it. can't have it both ways and you either work with a union or you get rid of it.
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I think you've missed the point. Of course, on matters affecting the whole UK, all MPs should vote. But it is profoundly undemocratic that Scottish MPs get to vote on issues that don't affect their constituents, because the issue is dealt with locally by the Scottish Parliament.

A good example is hunting with dogs - the SP has voted to have its own bill. But why should Scottish MPs then get to vote on laws that don't even apply to Scotland? Where is the accountability if their constituents are not affected by their MP's voting record? Shouldn't English MPs then get to vote on the Scottish bill if we have a union?

Devolution is a complete mess. We need a federal UK. It's about the only thing I agree with UKIP on!
 
Llamaman said:
I think you've missed the point. Of course, on matters affecting the whole UK, all MPs should vote. But it is profoundly undemocratic that Scottish MPs get to vote on issues that don't affect their constituents, because the issue is dealt with locally by the Scottish Parliament.

A good example is hunting with dogs - the SP has voted to have its own bill. But why should Scottish MPs then get to vote on laws that don't even apply to Scotland? Where is the accountability if their constituents are not affected by their MP's voting record? Shouldn't English MPs then get to vote on the Scottish bill if we have a union?

Devolution is a complete mess. We need a federal UK. It's about the only thing I agree with UKIP on!
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but its a union. if you don't want scottish MPs voting then you have to remove them from parliment. Its a stupid system I agree but its what the no campain wanted. issues that affect E&W also affect scotland because of the barnet formula. cuts to the NHS in england & wales means the scottish budget is less.

as for the scottish bill, thats a westminster issue so all MPs in westminster vote on it therefore English votes are determining what happens in scotland. In typical political fashion they are acting like children
 
dejongj said:
How is that?
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Llamaman said:
Because - if I have understood correctly - the current suggestion for EVEL is that there would be an initial vote by English MPs to accept or veto a bill before it is presented to the wider house. So EVEL will allow English Tory MPs to veto private members bills tabled by Labour & SNP, but likewise Labour & SNP can still vote against bills presented by the government.

Sturgeon's ill-advised intervention on this issue might embolden the Tories to go further and remove the SNPs ability to do this.
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Its fairly typical of things at the moment though. Parliament is a UK wide parliament, not English or Scottish or Welsh. Regardless of if DC likes it or not thats what parliament is. If he's that desperate to have a good f*** around with it (over what is after all not an important issue) then he needs to form and English Assembly. Whats stopping the SNP voting against changes at the mo?

I actually agree we need a federal UK, not this mess. But half assed jobs like this make it worse
 
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It looks like Cameron is waving the white flag on this one. He's indicating that the government will not strengthen the EVEL proposals.
 
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Llamaman said:
I think you've missed the point. Of course, on matters affecting the whole UK, all MPs should vote. But it is profoundly undemocratic that Scottish MPs get to vote on issues that don't affect their constituents, because the issue is dealt with locally by the Scottish Parliament.

A good example is hunting with dogs - the SP has voted to have its own bill. But why should Scottish MPs then get to vote on laws that don't even apply to Scotland? Where is the accountability if their constituents are not affected by their MP's voting record? Shouldn't English MPs then get to vote on the Scottish bill if we have a union?

Devolution is a complete mess. We need a federal UK. It's about the only thing I agree with UKIP on!
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Thats the crux of the matter. Non scottish mp's have been voting on the scottish bill, and voting down amendments which have the support of the scottish mp's. The real fix would be an English devolved parliament that votes on devolved English issues, as opposed the the two tier system that is current. (ori suppose you could scrap the scottish parliament and welsh assembly....
 
Sorry, when I wrote "the Scottish bill" I meant the Scottish bill regarding fox hunting. After all, if Scottish MPs get to vote on laws that have no impact on their constituents, shouldn't English & Welsh MPs be granted the same privilege?

Obviously, all MPs from across the UK should be voting on the Scottish devolved powers bill - as it represents a fundamental change in the way our nation is governed - although the government should be showing more responsibility in seeking a consensus with the SNP rather than current silliness.
 
Llamaman said:
Sorry, when I wrote "the Scottish bill" I meant the Scottish bill regarding fox hunting. After all, if Scottish MPs get to vote on laws that have no impact on their constituents, shouldn't English & Welsh MPs be granted the same privilege?

Obviously, all MPs from across the UK should be voting on the Scottish devolved powers bill - as it represents a fundamental change in the way our nation is governed - although the government should be showing more responsibility in seeking a consensus with the SNP rather than current silliness.
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no because its a general election, you would have to draw up a fairer constituancy map for england and wales only. they wouldn't be doing this if they had numbers of mp's north of the border. all the tories want is a greater majority. its pretty pathetic really.

and why should english mps vote on the scottish bill. it doesnt affect england does it?
 
POAH said:
and why should english mps vote on the scottish bill. it doesnt affect england does it?
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The Scottish law on fox hunting affects England exactly as much as the English and Welsh law on fox hunting affects Scotland. That is exactly my point. Devolution has created a union with a fundamental problem at the heart of it.
 
I was listening to the debate on the radio earlier about this and TBH, whether you are for or against the repeal,
she (Nicola Sturgeon) came across as childish and hypercritical.

Some of you posting in here, don't seem to be aware that fox hunting / hunting with dogs is actually still legal in this country,
as long as only two dogs are used to flush the fox, and its dispatched with a gun.

In Scotland, the use of a pack of dogs is still legal.
Again assuming the fox is dispatched with a gun.
Hence my hypocritical statement.
The childish one is pretty obvious.
 
Cobra said:
In Scotland, the use of a pack of dogs is still legal.
Again assuming the fox is dispatched with a gun.
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Quite. The SNP have now decided that they like the English/Welsh law more than their own and want to adopt it, and are using that as an excuse to thwart the current bill (despite promising previously not to interfere in devolved matters).

Of course, this makes no sense at all. A relaxation of the law in E&W doesn't preclude a tightening in Scotland - we have different legal systems and have had different laws on this matter for years, so the sudden desire for harmonisation smacks of political opportunism.
 
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