Why are people buying electric cars?

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mj4456 said:
For battery change sites to work many vehicles would need a redesign, Ive seen batteries under boot floors etc, this is not like sliding a battery out a compact camera.
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Indeed not.

If any sense had been applied, the first step would have been to design a universal battery pack and mounting system. Once that had been done, the rules would have required all vehicles to use that system.
 
Pound Coin said:
The point is that swappable batteries require a structure for them and for the device or vehicle they are going in. This impacts on battery size, item weight, and ultimately, power capacity. Batteries that are not swappable can also be distributed around the ‘chassis’ rather than having to be in a standard, rectangular form.
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Batteries would also need to not be purchased, but leased. Why would you spend 30k on a new car with new battery, only for it to be swapped in 2 months for a 3yo one?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Indeed not.

If any sense had been applied, the first step would have been to design a universal battery pack and mounting system. Once that had been done, the rules would have required all vehicles to use that system.
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New tech changes. Even in cameras we had CF then SD cards. We went from the old USB to USB micro now USBC.
 
cambsno said:
Batteries would also need to not be purchased, but leased. Why would you spend 30k on a new car with new battery, only for it to be swapped in 2 months for a 3yo one?
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Absolutely - it would make the purchase price of the car lower and you would never own a battery, but instead the leasing cost would be covered in the recharge pricing.
 
I'd rather rely on my own battery than an unknown quantity that could be hiding any number of problems. I'd guess that many of us have had camera batteries suddenly drop from 50% to the dreaded flashing one bar in a couple of shots. Not a huge problem in a camera but more so in lane 4 of a smart motorway... (I've had a similar problem in an ICE car when the fuel line split and the car caught fire in the outside lane of the M25... NOT FUN!!!)
 
Nod said:
I'd rather rely on my own battery than an unknown quantity that could be hiding any number of problems. I'd guess that many of us have had camera batteries suddenly drop from 50% to the dreaded flashing one bar in a couple of shots. Not a huge problem in a camera but more so in lane 4 of a smart motorway... (I've had a similar problem in an ICE car when the fuel line split and the car caught fire in the outside lane of the M25... NOT FUN!!!)
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There would have to be warranties, testing etc etc. but how often do you hear of an ev battery suddenly failing. It makes much more sense to have them rdgularly cycled round and tested professionally, although it should certainlt be an optional scheme.
 
ancient_mariner said:
There would have to be warranties, testing etc etc. but how often do you hear of an ev battery suddenly failing. It makes much more sense to have them rdgularly cycled round and tested professionally, although it should certainlt be an optional scheme.
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EV batteries do fail from time to time but its not common.
There are problems with other parts in Skoda cars and I suspect other brands, but linked to the EV systems, still a lot of teething problems, and natural breakdowns on top of that.
If I were to get an EV I would want to charge it at home, which I could do with a bit of effort, but how would someone who has no driveway and lives three story's up manage that.
The next thing that my wife does worry about is having an EV that goes on fire.
It is well documented that this can happen,
But I am 65 and a bit, retire late next year, I think I would rather spend my money on a classic car, I know they are high maintenance but I am far more passionate about them than EV or even modern day ICE cars, as good as they are.
 
Oldbones said:
But I am 65 and a bit, retire late next year, I think I would rather spend my money on a classic car, I know they are high maintenance but I am far more passionate about them than EV or even modern day ICE cars, as good as they are.
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I'm about 1 year younger, also plan to retire next year if I can. I suspect the EV that I want is 5 years away from being made right now, since we do several long trips every year and range anxiety isn't something I want to have to manage on top of all the stress of travel.
 
If range anxiety is an issue, hire a ICE car for the longer drives - or go down the hybrid route rather than full BEV.
 
ancient_mariner said:
I'm about 1 year younger, also plan to retire next year if I can. I suspect the EV that I want is 5 years away from being made right now, since we do several long trips every year and range anxiety isn't something I want to have to manage on top of all the stress of travel.
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Seems a lot of us are in the 'retiring next year' category. In 5 years you will be able to buy the EV you want for sure.
 
Nod said:
If range anxiety is an issue, hire a ICE car for the longer drives - or go down the hybrid route rather than full BEV.
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Range anxiety really is something you only ever get over by driving electric. I was the same as others in that regard before I got my company car and I'm luckier than most in that regard, I got to do the driving without the outlay.
 
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We do long trips about 300 miles one way, I would just rent when the time comes.
I have had some nice cars in my time,
Had a passion for Fords when I was younger, MKII Ford Escort 1600 Ghia in metallic blue, what a nice car.
Drove it all the way from Aberdeen to Surrey and back (no sat nav) when I was 19 years old. Loved it ?
Another was a V6 Granada Ghia, loved that too but it was very heavy on fuel.
Now these cars are old hat, and in todays world are not as reliable or as safe as modern cars.
But there are companies out there that get these cars and make them EV or upgrade them to todays ICEs.
Lots of possibilities out there
Right now I have a 2015 Corsa, basic car and a work horse, and a 2009 (16 years old) Fiat Panda. solid wee car with a bit of TLC required, but if I stir up the engine and gear box it is an amazing car.
I call it the Pandatastic.
Not to take any thing away from EVs but I will doubt of any of them would last that long or be as much fun.
And it only cost £1300.
I am lucky, because I can fix it as required, and the Corsa is the same.
 
Oldbones said:
We do long trips about 300 miles one way, I would just rent when the time comes.
I have had some nice cars in my time,
Had a passion for Fords when I was younger, MKII Ford Escort 1600 Ghia in metallic blue, what a nice car.
Drove it all the way from Aberdeen to Surrey and back (no sat nav) when I was 19 years old. Loved it ?
Another was a V6 Granada Ghia, loved that too but it was very heavy on fuel.
Now these cars are old hat, and in todays world are not as reliable or as safe as modern cars.
But there are companies out there that get these cars and make them EV or upgrade them to todays ICEs.
Lots of possibilities out there
Right now I have a 2015 Corsa, basic car and a work horse, and a 2009 (16 years old) Fiat Panda. solid wee car with a bit of TLC required, but if I stir up the engine and gear box it is an amazing car.
I call it the Pandatastic.
Not to take any thing away from EVs but I will doubt of any of them would last that long or be as much fun.
And it only cost £1300.
I am lucky, because I can fix it as required, and the Corsa is the same.
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If you're driving an EV that has less range than you need then you just charge the car when you need to. It only takes a small adjustment in thinking coming from ice. 300 miles might involve a bathroom break, or a pitstop for coffee? If not then make one anyway. Plug in for 15-20 minutes while you do the needful. A longer charge while you are there and another short one on the way home.

My company car will do 200 miles and I regularly have to drive ~250 so I plug in for a few minutes while I have my lunch. It doesn't impact on my day at all.
 
Steep said:
If you're driving an EV that has less range than you need then you just charge the car when you need to. It only takes a small adjustment in thinking coming from ice. 300 miles might involve a bathroom break, or a pitstop for coffee? If not then make one anyway. Plug in for 15-20 minutes while you do the needful. A longer charge while you are there and another short one on the way home.

My company car will do 200 miles and I regularly have to drive ~250 so I plug in for a few minutes while I have my lunch. It doesn't impact on my day at all.
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This - a 300 mile trip at 60mph will take 5 hours, could quite probably take 6-7 due to traffic so a stop or two would be better for the driver and allow a charge to take place.
 
cambsno said:
New tech changes. Even in cameras we had CF then SD cards. We went from the old USB to USB micro now USBC.
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Furthermore, not all EV's would have to be battery swap capable. There seems to be a reaction to battery swap that every EV would have to be capable of such, but there could easily be two systems running in parallel; those that are battery swap capable and those which are not and use their own proprietary system.
 
mj4456 said:
Another car maker I haven’t heard of but what if other marques use different batteries and fitment, we all see that they can’t even standard wheel fitment, or even wheel nuts. Getting them to agree might be like herding cats.
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Same could be said for the EV plugs that weren't universal, although I think they are (or heading that way) now. We've already discussed that there would have to be a universal system for the battery swap side of things. The non-battery swap side can be proprietary.
 
mj4456 said:
Another car maker I haven’t heard of but what if other marques use different batteries and fitment, we all see that they can’t even standard wheel fitment, or even wheel nuts. Getting them to agree might be like herding cats.
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Video three years old?
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Indeed not.

If any sense had been applied, the first step would have been to design a universal battery pack and mounting system. Once that had been done, the rules would have required all vehicles to use that system.
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One of the problem with that Idea is that it would stifle development. The size of battery packs has changed over the last 20 years. As has their capacity. Like with most things there is only so far you can go with a design.
 
munch said:
One of the problem with that Idea is that it would stifle development. The size of battery packs has changed over the last 20 years. As has their capacity. Like with most things there is only so far you can go with a design.
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20 years ago EVs were a specialised interest vehicle, but relatively impractical, and even the 2008 Tesla roadster didn't change that. It wasn't until the model S in 2014 in the uk that they became taken seriously as transport by the small numbers seeking an electric alternative to ICE. I'd say that take-up by ordinary people has only happened in the last 5 years. yes, battery tech is changing quickly and regulations can affect that, but having a common size battery would just mean ranges improved as tech got better. And development isn't stifled if there is a well thought out base design to work from.
 
ancient_mariner said:
- I'd say that take-up by ordinary people has only happened in the last 5 years. yes, battery tech is changing quickly and regulations can affect that, but having a common size battery would just mean ranges improved as tech got better. And development isn't stifled if there is a well thought out base design to work from.
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I'd say most of the uptake is within the last 2 years, when I first started working with EV chargers almost 5 years ago you'd hardly see an EV on the road and ownership was still very much a club. You'd chat with drivers who were interested in the cars and dedicated to the platform. Now and for the better the car is simply a mode of transport same as an ice car, nothing special. The down side is that drivers you meet are often more selfish and self absorbed, the 'club' aspect has gone. It was bound to happen as EV use grew and the cars became commonplace.

I agree about standardisation too but since when does the motor industry ever want to standardise on anything and they have way too much influence on government for them aver to be forced to do it.
 
munch said:
One of the problem with that Idea is that it would stifle development. The size of battery packs has changed over the last 20 years. As has their capacity. Like with most things there is only so far you can go with a design.
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There is always a balance to be struck between the longevity of technology and the speed of introducing new systems.

One big flaw of our current balance is that there is too much change happening too fast and that is disrupting our societies. That, to me, is the big flaw in your argument. Once you find something that works, don't fix it.
 
Steep said:
....and they have way too much influence on government for them aver to be forced to do it.
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Which is the worst thing about our current system of government.
 
Steep said:
I'd say most of the uptake is within the last 2 years, when I first started working with EV chargers almost 5 years ago you'd hardly see an EV on the road and ownership was still very much a club. You'd chat with drivers who were interested in the cars and dedicated to the platform. Now and for the better the car is simply a mode of transport same as an ice car, nothing special. The down side is that drivers you meet are often more selfish and self absorbed, the 'club' aspect has gone. It was bound to happen as EV use grew and the cars became commonplace.

I agree about standardisation too but since when does the motor industry ever want to standardise on anything and they have way too much influence on government for them aver to be forced to do it.
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Among the people I know - mostly sciency people - it was the manically environmental who'd have EVs more than 5 years ago. Some of these people were my friends, but when it came to their EVs they'd be real arses about it, and from interaction with other EV owners online their attitude was quite normal. About 5 years ago EVs seemed to be starting to be normal transport and a possible option for ordinary people, and some of the ordinary people I knew did go and buy them. Possibly it was covid that made a lot of people re-evaluate their lives and plan to travel less.

But I'd agree there's been a change in availability of smaller EVs especially in the last couple of years that are practical and aren't just piles of junk like the Zoe. June 2023 I went looking for a replacement for my wife's mini, and ended up buying a Citroen ICE because there were no affordable, sensible EV options at the time. That autumn Dacia released their small EV and since there have been a bunch of sensible, practical vehicles available at reasonable prices. I almost wished we'd been able to wait another year, but in the end that wasn't really possible.
 
ancient_mariner said:
20 years ago EVs were a specialised interest vehicle, but relatively impractical, and even the 2008 Tesla roadster didn't change that. It wasn't until the model S in 2014 in the uk that they became taken seriously as transport by the small numbers seeking an electric alternative to ICE. I'd say that take-up by ordinary people has only happened in the last 5 years. yes, battery tech is changing quickly and regulations can affect that, but having a common size battery would just mean ranges improved as tech got better. And development isn't stifled if there is a well thought out base design to work from.
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But having a common battery does limit overall development of different cars. The sharing of engines, etc. Is common among manufacturers. But you couldn't put a 3 litre BMW engine in a Citroen C1
 
munch said:
But having a common battery does limit overall development of different cars. The sharing of engines, etc. Is common among manufacturers. But you couldn't put a 3 litre BMW engine in a Citroen C1
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You wouldn't put a 80 litre fuel tank in a Citroen C1, but you could put 2 40 litre tanks in a 7 series beemer.
 
munch said:
But you couldn't put a 3 litre BMW engine in a Citroen C1
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You can put the same fuel in almost every petrol car and it's the fuel we're talking about here.
 
ancient_mariner said:
You wouldn't put a 80 litre fuel tank in a Citroen C1, but you could put 2 40 litre tanks in a 7 series beemer.
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True. But at the moment different companies are looking at different ways to solve the issues of where to put the battery, to give better handling or better braking or better weight distribution etc. It would be harder to do that sort of thing with a common battery that would need to be changed on a regular basis.

On a slightly different tangent. Fire services would love it if all manufacturers used the same location for battery cut off, preferably one that is easily accessible. There is at least the generally accepted principle that High Voltage cables are orange (just some disagreement as to what constitutes High Voltage).
 
munch said:
But having a common battery does limit overall development of different cars. The sharing of engines, etc. Is common among manufacturers. But you couldn't put a 3 litre BMW engine in a Citroen C1
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If you can put a 3 1/2 litre Rover engine in an Austin Healey Frogeye, you can put a 3 litre BMW engine in a C1! Take some work but it can be done.
 
I know a woman with an EV, she looks upon it as purchasing energy instead of petrol.
All your doing is buying energy, she gets it at a low tariff from midnight to the early hours.
She also gets it at a lower tariff at charging stations if she uses her providers card, just like a bank card.
Sounds great, and she is delighted with it all.
She has a drive way of sorts, and that is a definite plus when it comes to all of this.
I don't know any actual numbers of course.
But in her old car she was spending about £240 a month on fuel, in her EV she is spending about £40 a month on energy
So the saving's in that covers the higher payment for the EV its self.
I don't think its the cost involved with EVs its the charging at home and reliability of getting a charge when away from home.
Do they make a cheap and cheerfull totally basic EV for the masses, something on par with a Skoda Fabia, Vauxhall Corsa, Fiat Panda ?
Another thing is that all this energy that will required, especially overnight in the years to come to charge all of these EV, and don't forget the normal day to day usage, like putting the kettle on and charging phones and so on will still have to be done.
Will the energy providers be able to cope with the demand ?
 
Oldbones said:
I know a woman with an EV, she looks upon it as purchasing energy instead of petrol.
All your doing is buying energy, she gets it at a low tariff from midnight to the early hours.
She also gets it at a lower tariff at charging stations if she uses her providers card, just like a bank card.
Sounds great, and she is delighted with it all.
She has a drive way of sorts, and that is a definite plus when it comes to all of this.
I don't know any actual numbers of course.
But in her old car she was spending about £240 a month on fuel, in her EV she is spending about £40 a month on energy
So the saving's in that covers the higher payment for the EV its self.
I don't think its the cost involved with EVs its the charging at home and reliability of getting a charge when away from home.
Do they make a cheap and cheerfull totally basic EV for the masses, something on par with a Skoda Fabia, Vauxhall Corsa, Fiat Panda ?
Another thing is that all this energy that will required, especially overnight in the years to come to charge all of these EV, and don't forget the normal day to day usage, like putting the kettle on and charging phones and so on will still have to be done.
Will the energy providers be able to cope with the demand ?
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It was always the case that EVs were a big outlay but worked out cheaper over time, the big outlay was the sticking point though.
Are there cheap EVs? definitely yes now (depends on your idea of cheap..) and getting cheaper all the time, this is natural progression. New tech is expensive because the R&D have to be paid for and it's made in small numbers. As production increases prices fall.
 
Steep said:
It was always the case that EVs were a big outlay but worked out cheaper over time,
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Which raises the question, what will the real costs turn out to be?

What will it really cost to recycle all those batteries when they get to the end of their lives? Will recycling electric cars generate as much wealth as recycling petrol or diesel cars or will it turn out to be uneconomical? What will be the real lifetime of the cars themselves and how ecologically expensive will the polutants they generate turn out to be?

As with all brave new worlds, the devil is in the details that the proponents forget to supply, when they laude their favourites.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Which raises the question, what will the real costs turn out to be?

What will it really cost to recycle all those batteries when they get to the end of their lives? Will recycling electric cars generate as much wealth as recycling petrol or diesel cars or will it turn out to be uneconomical? What will be the real lifetime of the cars themselves and how ecologically expensive will the polutants they generate turn out to be?

As with all brave new worlds, the devil is in the details that the proponents forget to supply, when they laude their favourites.
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Again the question is raised.

Whither ICE when there is no fuel...
 
Pound Coin said:
Again the question is raised.

Whither ICE when there is no fuel...
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There are several practical adaptations for internal combustion engines to use alternatives such as alcohol from plants or hydrogen from water.

A quick search of the internet, such as "alternatives to petrol" will turn up quite a lot of companies promoting such products. While such alternatives are currently small scale, there could be potential for them to become mainstream,
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
There are several practical adaptations for internal combustion engines to use alternatives such as alcohol from plants or hydrogen from water.

A quick search of the internet, such as "alternatives to petrol" will turn up quite a lot of companies promoting such products. While such alternatives are currently small scale, there could be potential for them to become mainstream,
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Dreams.

It is all about scale, and where the money is going. At the moment, money doesn't seem to be going to biofuels, or hydrogen. There will be investment reasons for that.

Besides, plants will be needed to feed people, not fuel cars for the rich.
 
Pound Coin said:
Dreams.

It is all about scale, and where the money is going. At the moment, money doesn't seem to be going to biofuels, or hydrogen. There will be investment reasons for that.

Besides, plants will be needed to feed people, not fuel cars for the rich.
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In principle, surely electric is the best, and easiest way - stick a wind turbine up, convert to electric. Clean and 'easy'.
 
cambsno said:
In principle, surely electric is the best, and easiest way - stick a wind turbine up, convert to electric. Clean and 'easy'.
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However, wind is totally unreliable.

The one thing that is reliable, really reliable, is tidal energy but there doesn't appear to be an appetite for that... :thinking:
 
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