Why are people buying electric cars?

[Nod]

Laws of Physics dictate how long it takes a lorry/bus to stop and the quality of bus drivers is... questionable (to be charitable!)

 

[gman]

So all busses and lorries etc are to have a bonnet at knee height?

These are lkely to be more damaging than a Landy at 30mph.

In particular the Land Rover Defender and anyone who has tried to fit in and driven the previous gen ones will know that self preservation will ensure very careful driving! lol

 

[Pound Coin]

Laws of Physics dictate how long it takes a lorry/bus to stop and the quality of bus drivers is... questionable (to be charitable!)

They are subject to more stringent rules than car drivers. Mess up, lose licence, lose job.

 

[cambsno]

I remember Meow Meow Charlie mostly being about fire prevention but he may have diverisified

You can see how that sounds a little bit like victim blaming, right?

Well... it is! Because if I step out into the path of a car/train/bus whatever thats down to me. Its my responsibility to check its safe to enter that area. When I ride my bike or motorbike I ALWAYS do a lifesaver check, in many instances I will do it twice to be 100% sure I am not about to head into the path of a vehicle. Its about me taking accountability for my actions. I dont care if the care is doing 30, 60 or 100, i need to judge if its safe, and if I am not sure I dont perform that action. Same at junctions, I anticipate the car pulling out when it shouldnt.

Playing devils advocate, if all cars went 100mph and there was no comeback on the driver, you would see that pedestrians behaviour would improve no end. Am not suggesting that but pedestrians should be in fear of the road to some degree.

I will always remember those films from the 70s/80s about the dangers of train tracks, power lines and farms - these days it would be the farmer getting into trouble for not having a fence, rather than the fault of someone trespassing and doing something silly

 

[cambsno]

Laws of Physics dictate how long it takes a lorry/bus to stop and the quality of bus drivers is... questionable (to be charitable!)

So why do lorries sit 2 feet of the vehicle in front? Specially trained drivers my ass!

 

[ancient_mariner]

Busses and lorries can only be driven by specially trained drivers.

I'm not clear how that helps when someone steps off the pavement without warning.

 

[JonathanRyan]

Well... it is! Because if I step out into the path of a car/train/bus whatever thats down to me. Its my responsibility to check its safe to enter that area. When I ride my bike or motorbike I ALWAYS do a lifesaver check, in many instances I will do it twice to be 100% sure I am not about to head into the path of a vehicle. Its about me taking accountability for my actions. I dont care if the care is doing 30, 60 or 100, i need to judge if its safe, and if I am not sure I dont perform that action. Same at junctions, I anticipate the car pulling out when it shouldnt.

Playing devils advocate, if all cars went 100mph and there was no comeback on the driver, you would see that pedestrians behaviour would improve no end. Am not suggesting that but pedestrians should be in fear of the road to some degree.

I will always remember those films from the 70s/80s about the dangers of train tracks, power lines and farms - these days it would be the farmer getting into trouble for not having a fence, rather than the fault of someone trespassing and doing something silly

You're right. Putting spikes on the front of cars would increase road safety no end.

Think how many lives we could save by machine gunning jay walkers.

 

[Pound Coin]

A car travelling at 30 has more than double the kinetic energy of one travelling at 20.

I doubt many drivers know that.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

So all busses and lorries etc are to have a bonnet at knee height?

These are lkely to be more damaging than a Landy at 30mph.

A television programme on the subject, several years ago, suggested that the key factor, in any given impact, was the absorbtion of the energy by the distortion of the two objects.

That's why crumple zones are so important a feature of modern cars. The more they distort, the less energy is transmited into the other object, such as a human body. When I read up further on the subject, that seemed to be the accepted wisdom: It's the lack of distortion makes the injury worse.

Having owned a Landrover Mk 2, I'm fairly sure that it would cause just as much damage at any given speed as a bus or a lorry and possibly more, if the bus or lorry is fitted with some form of energy absorbing front end.

 

[ancient_mariner]

A television programme on the subject, several years ago, suggested that the key factor, in any given impact, was the absorbtion of the energy by the distortion of the two objects.

That's why crumple zones are so important a feature of modern cars. The more they distort, the less energy is transmited into the other object, such as a human body. When I read up further on the subject, that seemed to be the accepted wisdom: It's the lack of distortion makes the injury worse.

Having owned a Landrover Mk 2, I'm fairly sure that it would cause just as much damage at any given speed as a bus or a lorry and possibly more, if the bus or lorry is fitted with some form of energy absorbing front end.

Are busses and lorries fitted with impact absorbing fronts, or are they as they appear, effectively rigid metal, glass and plastic. I suspect a buss or lorry will cause (even) more damage than a modern tall SUV because of this and the much larger inertia of such a vehicle.

 

[Pound Coin]

I'd imagine that the stats for pets hit would inform those setting out design criteria for busses and lorries.

Given that pedestrians on rural roads is now pretty much a thing of the past*, I wouldn't be surprised if most pedestrian/car interactions occur in urban areas.

Lorries tend not to appear in numbers where there are lots of pedestrians.
Busses do occur in numbers, but where there are most pedestrians the busses are going slower, stopping etc.

*Bullied off the roads by weight of traffic, highways engineers and marketing...

 

[ancient_mariner]

*Bullied off the roads by weight of traffic, highways engineers and marketing...

Apparently Oxfordshire doesn't count as rural - lots of us locals walking on country roads here and there's no bullying at all. If you have supporting data for your comment then please provide it.

Busses do occur in numbers, but where there are most pedestrians the busses are going slower, stopping etc.

I grew up in London - busses drove around the streets at normal traffic speeds, and they still do around the roads of Oxfordshire, in Oxford itself and Bicester, including where there are peds.

 

[Steep]

Purely anecdotally I've seen a real drop in the quality of driving from HGVs in the last year or so. I figured it stems from the dumbing down? of the HGV test brought in bt the Tories.

 

[Steep]

Back to EVs, For those in Scotland, it seems Chargeplace Scotland will pretty much cease to be by the end of the year. Lack of funds to keep it going and the advent of contactless payment has made them a bit redundant. As owners leave the network their chargers will stop working on the CPS card so probably time to get that Electroverse card or a.n.other roaming type rfid. Contactless is fine for rapid chargers but not good for the 7kw beasties.

 

[cosmicma]

fun fact...

a car traveling at 100mph will still be doing 70mph when a car traveling at 70mph comes to a stop

bit of a sobering thought that one for me

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Are busses and lorries fitted with impact absorbing fronts, or are they as they appear, effectively rigid metal, glass and plastic. I suspect a buss or lorry will cause (even) more damage than a modern tall SUV because of this and the much larger inertia of such a vehicle.

Here is a Transport for London discussion document on bus/pedestrian safety...

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-safety-standard-vru-frontal-crashworthiness.pdf

and some Euro NCAP ratings that include pedestrian safety ratings...

Truck ratings | Euro NCAP

Euro NCAP releases Safer Trucks test results as it continues its drive towards achieving Vision Zero

www.euroncap.com

It seems clear that the age of the vehicle will have a major bearing on this subject.

 

[lindsay]

So, I know the thread has diverged at length about the sport of knocking down pedestrians, but it's the appropriate thread for my comment on the original subject: at least some people buying EV's must be people like me, who, having installed solar pv systems, can see the advantages of generating the fuel for their vehicles themselves.
We are now seriously considering replacing my 6 year old Mazda 6 estate GT Sport Nav - diesel 2,2l 184ps - for an ev, most likely something medium suv in design. However we really like the Mazda and the host of luxury features it has, so choosing something that we feel is at least as good whilst not being silly expensive is going to be a challenge. I don't want to spend over £50k for a new car, but will contemplate anything unto that I think. I'd prefer new or virtually new. Starting to do my research...might start a new thread on that.

 

[gman]

So, I know the thread has diverged at length about the sport of knocking down pedestrians, but it's the appropriate thread for my comment on the original subject: at least some people buying EV's must be people like me, who, having installed solar pv systems, can see the advantages of generating the fuel for their vehicles themselves.
We are now seriously considering replacing my 6 year old Mazda 6 estate GT Sport Nav - diesel 2,2l 184ps - for an ev, most likely something medium suv in design. However we really like the Mazda and the host of luxury features it has, so choosing something that we feel is at least as good whilst not being silly expensive is going to be a challenge. I don't want to spend over £50k for a new car, but will contemplate anything unto that I think. I'd prefer new or virtually new. Starting to do my research...might start a new thread on that.

I certainly know that I would be instantly looking into an EV after getting a tasty solar and battery system installed, despite still very much liking petrol. The cold hard reality of keeping the petrol car would simply be because I like it. Most other metrics favour the EV under these circumstances.

I'd watch out for that lovely Mazda red paint, which I believe is Soul Red Crystal and is code 46V (there may be others). Whilst beautiful, it's an expensive three part paint and expensive to blend if a repair is needed. Upwards of double the usual price, which my brother is currently suffering.

 

[gman]

fun fact...

a car traveling at 100mph will still be doing 70mph when a car traveling at 70mph comes to a stop

bit of a sobering thought that one for me

That put me down a rabbit hole lol

Apparently it's a flase claim, but I feel that's a little harsh and I'd say it's more a case of not being quite accurate. The point is still valid though. (link)

 

[lindsay]

My previous Mazda 6 estate was Soul red, a lovely colour. The current one is dark blue with white leather inside.

 

[gman]

My previous Mazda 6 estate was Soul red, a lovely colour. The current one is dark blue with white leather inside.

It really is a lovely colour, very striking on the road. My brother just bought his Mazda a few weeks ago and someone has already hit it whilst parked. The driver door now has a small dent on the crease that will need to be pulled and unfortunately sprayed.

Normally that would be about £400 max, but he's having to pay £800 at his local trusted garage and that was low, all the others wanted £1,200+. I almost fell off my chair when he told me! He'll have to address the protective coating he paid for as well. He's the complete opposite of me, so doesn't deserve such karma lol


EDIT: the small scuff lower down buffed out, so it's just the dent. I'm guessing a delivery van has reversed into it at an angle as it's quite tight in there.

 

[lindsay]

I see Mazda are producing an electric 6 next year. I might wait to see if they do an estate version. Otherwise it might be the CX80 but I'm less keen on that.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Here is a Transport for London discussion document on bus/pedestrian safety...

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-safety-standard-vru-frontal-crashworthiness.pdf

and some Euro NCAP ratings that include pedestrian safety ratings...

Truck ratings | Euro NCAP

Euro NCAP releases Safer Trucks test results as it continues its drive towards achieving Vision Zero

www.euroncap.com

It seems clear that the age of the vehicle will have a major bearing on this subject.

There's more TLAs in that that you can shake a stick at!

Some key things stand out:
Table 3-1 shows that over the past decade the highest priority casualty group in terms of death and serious injury from collisions involving buses in London has been pedestrians severely injured in collisions where the bus was coded as going ahead, without negotiating a bend, overtaking, starting or stopping, etc.

Busses travelling normally hit the most people, probably because they aren't looking where they're going (the biggest proportion were just crossing the road, although it seems plenty get hit while still on the pavement).


Shape changes for the bus front have been investigated in innovative research using computer simulations. As a result, the BSS will require rounded corners at the front of the bus, combined with a slightly sloped front. These combine to create design envelope requirements to deflect VRUs laterally and upwards away from the bus to reduce injury and run-over risk.

They also want to put airbags under the bus to prevent people being hit by busses going under the wheels. These things could also be applied to SUVs/vans/lorries etc.


The nearside of the bus was the next most significant area when considering pedestrian collisions, with 1,480 pedestrian casualties resulting from collisions with the nearside of the bus, equating to 38% of pedestrian casualties. There were 31 pedestrian fatalities resulting from collisions with the nearside of the bus, making up 29% of all pedestrian fatalities. There was also 276 (34%) seriously injured and 1173 (39%) slightly injured pedestrian casualties due to the nearside of the bus being the first point of contact during a collision.

Pedestrians being injured by hitting the nearside of the bus MUST be pedestrian stupidity, surely? Only a small proportion of these where when the bus was turning.


When analysing the manoeuvres of pedestrians involved in collisions with the front end of a bus, it is clear that there are several important pedestrian manoeuvres that characterise the vast majority of collisions (Table 9). Pedestrians were crossing in front of the bus from the nearside of the road for 1,104 (56%) casualties and from the offside of the road in 335 (17%) casualties. There were also 71 (4%) pedestrian casualties crossing in front of the bus from the nearside of the road and 52 (3%) pedestrian casualties crossing in front of the bus from the offside of the road whilst masked by an obstruction. Finally, pedestrians were stationary in the carriageway for 48 (2%) casualties. Importantly, it should also be noted that 343 (17%) of pedestrian casualties were coded with an unknown or other manoeuvre. This shows that the majority of collisions (79%) between the front end of a bus and a pedestrian occur whilst the pedestrian is crossing the road, particularly from the nearside of the bus (59%).

There's over 120 pages and I've skimmed the first 20 or so. Take home message is really that we have to make vehicles safer because peds are stupid and sometimes step out in front of moving vehicles, even gigantic red ones.

 

[Nod]

So, I know the thread has diverged at length about the sport of knocking down pedestrians, but it's the appropriate thread for my comment on the original subject: at least some people buying EV's must be people like me, who, having installed solar pv systems, can see the advantages of generating the fuel for their vehicles themselves.
We are now seriously considering replacing my 6 year old Mazda 6 estate GT Sport Nav - diesel 2,2l 184ps - for an ev, most likely something medium suv in design. However we really like the Mazda and the host of luxury features it has, so choosing something that we feel is at least as good whilst not being silly expensive is going to be a challenge. I don't want to spend over £50k for a new car, but will contemplate anything unto that I think. I'd prefer new or virtually new. Starting to do my research...might start a new thread on that.

In your situation, I'd probably be thinking of a PHEV with a reasonable battery only range.

Completely agree about the luxury features - they make being stuck in traffic far less of a chore!

 

[ancient_mariner]

I'll probably look at the Enyaq as a next car unless there's a sudden influx of low cost/long distance alternatives. Range is tolerable, design less unappealing than many and it's a decent size.

 

[Mr Perceptive]

I'll probably look at the Enyaq as a next car unless there's a sudden influx of low cost/long distance alternatives. Range is tolerable, design less unappealing than many and it's a decent size.

Its surprisingly difficult to get 'decent' new vehicles that are under 40K to avoid the excess VED charge in future years. (I'm fully aware of how first world problem that seems )

We've just been through this exercise. One option that takes you above £40K and it suddenly becomes a very expensive option!!

 

[Jelster]

Its surprisingly difficult to get 'decent' new vehicles that are under 40K to avoid the excess VED charge in future years. (I'm fully aware of how first world problem that seems )

We've just been through this exercise. One option that takes you above £40K and it suddenly becomes a very expensive option!!

When we were replacing the Clubby we looked for something that had reasonable comfort, the right size and under £40k. It's hard, even the two range topping Sportage's were over the threshold; I looked at a Puma ST, but was put off by the issues in that engine, and the cockpit wasn't really up to it. I thought we had found a winner with a 2.0 T-Roc, 4x4 with low miles, but the price list for it new was just over £40k, and that meant 5 years of additional tax.

The Q2 has a decent cabin & infotainment system, with my version having a half decent sound system, which had a book price of around £36k. We're now 18 months in and I'm surprised how quickly that 1.5 motor can move, the only thing I regret is that I maybe should have looked at a Q3, as I struggle to get all my fishing gear in the car.

 

[gman]

There does seem to be a lack of EV estates, which is a game changer for me. Just looking at Autotrader used/new and this is what comes up:

 

[Mr Perceptive]

When we were replacing the Clubby we looked for something that had reasonable comfort, the right size and under £40k. It's hard, even the two range topping Sportage's were over the threshold; I looked at a Puma ST, but was put off by the issues in that engine, and the cockpit wasn't really up to it. I thought we had found a winner with a 2.0 T-Roc, 4x4 with low miles, but the price list for it new was just over £40k, and that meant 5 years of additional tax.

The Q2 has a decent cabin & infotainment system, with my version having a half decent sound system, which had a book price of around £36k. We're now 18 months in and I'm surprised how quickly that 1.5 motor can move, the only thing I regret is that I maybe should have looked at a Q3, as I struggle to get all my fishing gear in the car.

One of our cars is a Volvo XC60 bought a huge discount in the first COVID lockdown (think 11K discount ) , but it had a list price of around £46K, because of the discount I sucked up the VED. Our car usage has changed since Covid, I do a lot less business miles as remote access to my clients is the key, so we have decided to sell the XC60 and buy something with minimal running costs as we want to prioritise spending elsewhere.

Initally we though that two small cars might suffice (our other car is a Toyota Yaris, which I'm happy to drive to clients), but despite the Renault 5 E-Tech, being enormous fun (and very sensible money for an EV), we decided to go for something a little more Volvo like. This time I didn't want to get stung for the higher VED so 40K list was the absolute limit.

 

[JonathanRyan]

In your situation, I'd probably be thinking of a PHEV with a reasonable battery only range.

Completely agree about the luxury features - they make being stuck in traffic far less of a chore!

You mean the notoriously flammable PHEVs?

Second hand Tesla model S. It's the answer to many of life's problems.

 

[taxboy]

So, I know the thread has diverged at length about the sport of knocking down pedestrians, but it's the appropriate thread for my comment on the original subject: at least some people buying EV's must be people like me, who, having installed solar pv systems, can see the advantages of generating the fuel for their vehicles themselves.
We are now seriously considering replacing my 6 year old Mazda 6 estate GT Sport Nav - diesel 2,2l 184ps - for an ev, most likely something medium suv in design. However we really like the Mazda and the host of luxury features it has, so choosing something that we feel is at least as good whilst not being silly expensive is going to be a challenge. I don't want to spend over £50k for a new car, but will contemplate anything unto that I think. I'd prefer new or virtually new. Starting to do my research...might start a new thread on that.

I'm currently on my first EV after years of ICE ownership. Previously I'd always either bought nearly new or I did a personal import when it was feasible, then owned for about 11 years. This time I'm leasing as the numbers make far more sense plus the uncertainty still over the improvement in technology.

If you haven't considered this option I'd recommend checking out one of the comparison sites as some of the deals are quite tempting if you are looking at new or nearly new.

 

[lindsay]

I've done leasing in the past, but being close to retirement I want to own my cars outright before I retire.
On the plus side, we won't be doing anything on this until at least the middle of next year, so there's time to see if any new models come out. However I think mid-size suv will be the thing.

 

[cambsno]

fun fact...

a car traveling at 100mph will still be doing 70mph when a car traveling at 70mph comes to a stop

bit of a sobering thought that one for me

Depending on the car and driver - quite possible that a good driver in a new high performance car doing 100 can still stop quicker than an 85yo in a 20 year old car doing 70

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Depending on the car and driver - quite possible that a good driver in a new high performance car doing 100 can still stop quicker than an 85yo in a 20 year old car doing 70

Which is why those older drivers, who are good drivers, stay well within the speed limits and drive to the road conditions.

 

[cambsno]

Which is why those older drivers, who are good drivers, stay well within the speed limits and drive to the road conditions.

Not IMO, they often drive too slow for the road conditions, like on my way to the office, doing 40 on a 60 road that has cars normally driving at 55/60 on. No need at all for going at that speed. Bunches traffic and leads to people overtaking.

Of course its a generalisation - not every 17yo will drive like a lunatic (my son and his mates have black boxes for insurance), not every cyclists jumps red lights and not every old person is a bad driver. We joke about it in the pub, one of us after 5 pints would probably be safer than my mates wife when she is sober (would be interesting to try a simulator to test that)

 

[Nod]

Just a simple reaction time tester is VERY revealing, even after "just a pint".

 

[Steep]

Saw a video last night on a jaecoo range rover rip off. All electric, 250 miles range, looks very like an RR but of course no 4x4 drive. Priced at..... £30k

Jaecoo, owned by Geely, who also do Polestar and Volvo.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

No need at all for going at that speed. Bunches traffic and leads to people overtaking.

That would depend entirely on the situation both inside the car and outside it.

The police will only stop a driver for "inconsiderate driving" in very specific circumstances. Driving at 40MPH in a 60MPH limit would only be inconsiderate driving if the road was clear, the vehicle was safely capable of a higher speed, there was no-one and nothing in the car that the driver was protecting (e.g. a frail, elderly passenger or a baby on its mother's lap due to the non-availability of a suitable carrier) and various other circumstances.

I've been told that officers will think quite carefully before acting in such circumstances, because a contested case is both expensive and difficult to prove. They may, when it is safe to do so, pull over the vehicle and enquire if anything is wrong but only if it is really problematic, probably due to heavy traffic in both directions. In any case, I've also been told that 40MPH in a 60MPH zone is not going to be "inconsiderate" to many magistrates.

 

[lindsay]

Saw a video last night on a jaecoo range rover rip off. All electric, 250 miles range, looks very like an RR but of course no 4x4 drive. Priced at..... £30k

Jaecoo, owned by Geely, who also do Polestar and Volvo.

I didn't know the Chinese had bought Volvo. I guess the cars are still built in Europe though. I had no idea of the origin of Polestar. All these new manufacturers makes me suspicious! That Jaecoo looks interesting but suspiciously cheap for the suggested trim level.
Mrs says anything that isn't British or Chinese please!
I'm now toying with keeping my Mazda 6 estate and getting a small electric runabout as well, which will keep the VED low and reduce the capital outlay. We'll see what the options are financially and practically.

 

[Pound Coin]

Bunches traffic and leads to people overtaking.

overtaking, yes, why not. And given the car in front is going slower, a shorter overtske.

Bunches? I don't get this. Drivers should drive at a distance away from the car in front that they can safely stop in. If they are driving closer than that, they need to have a think..