Why are people buying electric cars?

[gman]

Yes that's the normal way they work but this one was ignoring the other two buttons.

Well, I guess you either cough up the £2.99 per month or risk losing sleep over the lack of access to the...Liverpool Echo.

You could see if Manchester will offer up the goodies for free: https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-rule-anyone-driveway-england-32372969

 

[Pound Coin]

There are ways of seeing paywalled content - but I’ll not link to it on the forum, easy to find out.

 

[mj4456]

I heard this in the pub last night, someone asking if they can apply twice as he and she both have an electric car, and can they stop anyone else parking outside their house, I suggested Im would depend on if they were bigger than the other person, no pavement starts tomorrow, some streets look tidier already as cars all parked on one side all facing the correct direction, waiting for school drop off/ pick up times tomorrow.

 

[mj4456]

Going to look at 2 new Kia’s later, launch event but not really interested, invited to make the place look busy maybe.

Well one was brick shaped and the size of tank, the other had lost a fight with an ugly stick, pizza and wine were ok though. No mention of price although I did ask.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Well one was brick shaped and the size of tank, the other had lost a fight with an ugly stick, pizza and wine were ok though. No mention of price although I did ask.

TBH that's absolutely not a surprise.

 

[Clive K]

A very long, but equally interesting article concerning BMW and the future of EVs

A Giant Leap: Could BMW Save the German Automobile Industry?

Germany's automobile industry has been sliding deeper and deeper into crisis in recent years. But this week, BMW is presenting its new, ultramodern series of vehicles. It is a huge bet on the future. And it might just work.

www.spiegel.de

 

[BillN_33]

A very long, but equally interesting article concerning BMW and the future of EVs

A Giant Leap: Could BMW Save the German Automobile Industry?

Germany's automobile industry has been sliding deeper and deeper into crisis in recent years. But this week, BMW is presenting its new, ultramodern series of vehicles. It is a huge bet on the future. And it might just work.

www.spiegel.de

Very interesting as we have had BMW's for years - Bikes and cars - we still have 3 BMW cars and 2 BMW Bikes

BUT............ from the article

"A BMW iX3 will go for just under 70,000 euros. Company executives are proud of the fact that the completely newly developed automobile will hardly cost more than its predecessor model. But a mid-class SUV from the Chinese brand BYD can be had for 42,900 euros."

 

[Clive K]

Very interesting as we have had BMW's for years - Bikes and cars - we still have 3 BMW cars and 2 BMW Bikes

BUT............ from the article

"A BMW iX3 will go for just under 70,000 euros. Company executives are proud of the fact that the completely newly developed automobile will hardly cost more than its predecessor model. But a mid-class SUV from the Chinese brand BYD can be had for 42,900 euros."

Yes, it is difficult to see how European manufacturers can compete in today's price driven consumer market.

There were other things that got my attention including the stripping dashboard displays back to the essentials instead of cramming in unnecessary details just because they can. The fact that BMW is the USA's major employer and the location of Europe's leading car manufacturing base being Hungary. The latter possibly explains the EU pussyfooting around Orban and leaves BMW at risk from Russian interference. And the information about Teslar's total lack of new product development could indicate that Musk knows that his company's time has come and gone.

 

[BillN_33]

Yes, it is difficult to see how European manufacturers can compete in today's price driven consumer market.

There were other things that got my attention including the stripping dashboard displays back to the essentials instead of cramming in unnecessary details just because they can. The fact that BMW is the USA's major employer and the location of Europe's leading car manufacturing base being Hungary. The latter possibly explains the EU pussyfooting around Orban and leaves BMW at risk from Russian interference. And the information about Teslar's total lack of new product development could indicate that Musk knows that his company's time has come and gone.

We have a Diesel BMW X1 ........it's only done 24,000 miles ........and we do about 4,000 miles a year in it, (we have an i3 which gets all the local miles), I keep thinking about changing the X1 for the iX3 as there are some good used deals around ........ but it's just not worth it..........our current diesel X1 is "as good as new" and will go on for many more miles and years to come.

(I've looked at the Chinese MG's - good price........ but the interior is not as good/attractive as the BMW's)

 

[Clive K]

We have a Diesel BMW X1 ........it's only done 24,000 miles ........and we do about 4,000 miles a year in it, (we have an i3 which gets all the local miles), I keep thinking about changing the X1 for the iX3 as there are some good used deals around ........ but it's just not worth it..........our current diesel X1 is "as good as new" and will go on for many more miles and years to come.

(I've looked at the Chinese MG's - good price........ but the interior is not as good/attractive as the BMW's)

I would not be surprised to see the EU and UK back off from the 2035 commitment. Given the disparity in prices committing fully to EVs will play into China's hands and cripple the European car manufacture. That will cost millions of jobs and severely impact the economies of major European countries. France is teetering on bankruptcy as it is.

We have just bought a nearly new petrol car and I'm hoping to keep my old CR-V diesel for at least another two years. I need 4x4 for my fishing, something to pull the trailer, and carry 4 adults when on holiday in Spain. I can't see an EV replacing it any time soon. I like the look of the MGs, but they aren't practical for my needs.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

I would not be surprised to see the EU and UK back off from the 2035 commitment...

What a waste of all those bribes out of the public purse ...

 

[cambsno]

I would not be surprised to see the EU and UK back off from the 2035 commitment. Given the disparity in prices committing fully to EVs will play into China's hands and cripple the European car manufacture. That will cost millions of jobs and severely impact the economies of major European countries. France is teetering on bankruptcy as it is.

We have just bought a nearly new petrol car and I'm hoping to keep my old CR-V diesel for at least another two years. I need 4x4 for my fishing, something to pull the trailer, and carry 4 adults when on holiday in Spain. I can't see an EV replacing it any time soon. I like the look of the MGs, but they aren't practical for my needs.

I do wonder how the existing car companies will cope with the continued rise of Tesla and those from China/Far East

 

[Clive K]

I do wonder how the existing car companies will cope with the continued rise of Tesla and those from China/Far East

The Far East is definitely the biggest threat. It might be that Musk is preparing to throw in the towel as the article states that there has been zero new product development at Teslar since the Cybertruck launch. And he seems to be preoccupied elsewhere. Manufacturers in Germany, France, Spain and Italy might get support from their governments if EU rules on them propping up ailing companies are amended.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Manufacturers in Germany, France, Spain and Italy might get support from their governments if EU rules on them propping up ailing companies are amended.

The reasoning behind the anti-support rules, I believe, is specifically to prevent politicians "buying votes", instead of letting ailing companies die and make way for replacements.

It seems to me that if a company is critical to a country's economy, but the owners can't make it work right, then it should be nationalised and restricted to what it does well. If it does nothing well, the sooner it collapses, the less harm it can do to to the rest of the country.

 

[cambsno]

The reasoning behind the anti-support rules, I believe, is specifically to prevent politicians "buying votes", instead of letting ailing companies die and make way for replacements.

It seems to me that if a company is critical to a country's economy, but the owners can't make it work right, then it should be nationalised and restricted to what it does well. If it does nothing well, the sooner it collapses, the less harm it can do to to the rest of the country.

But while nationalised companies may be ok for monopolies, I am not sure about things like cars. They will need to be run as a business, not like a monopoly or public sector. And while the sentiment is right about allowing them to fail, that would cause HUGE issues with the economy and people.

BMW have 160k in Germany. If they went bust thats 160k all out of work, a big chink would be focussed in specific areas too. Then you have all the companies supplying parts, components etc... you could see job losses of what, 200, 300k, or even more. Thats a lot of tax revenue lost, and benefits to pay out.

I was no supporter of the miners, but even i can appreciate what impacts it had for decades on some areas

 

[Clive K]

But while nationalised companies may be ok for monopolies, I am not sure about things like cars. They will need to be run as a business, not like a monopoly or public sector. And while the sentiment is right about allowing them to fail, that would cause HUGE issues with the economy and people.

BMW have 160k in Germany. If they went bust thats 160k all out of work, a big chink would be focussed in specific areas too. Then you have all the companies supplying parts, components etc... you could see job losses of what, 200, 300k, or even more. Thats a lot of tax revenue lost, and benefits to pay out.

I was no supporter of the miners, but even i can appreciate what impacts it had for decades on some areas

Do you mean utilities?

When the collieries closed so did the privately owned newsagents, tobacconists, grocers, electrical dealers, furniture stores..... Where there were 5,000 employees now there are about fifty small businesses each employing a handful of staff. Imagine that all over Europe.

BMW are a small company in the world of car manufacture. VAG, Mercedes and the two big French companies dwarf them.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

But while nationalised companies may be ok for monopolies, I am not sure about things like cars.

I agree.

That's why I think the anti-support rules are a good thing. Utilities: power, water, the railways are examples of things that I think should be controlled by the government, as should medicine and education. Pretty much everything else should, I believe, be private and there should be no support for private business under any circumstance. If someone gets a profit from a business then they should suffer the consequences if the business fails.

Other opinions are obviously available.

 

[cambsno]

I agree.

That's why I think the anti-support rules are a good thing. Utilities: power, water, the railways are examples of things that I think should be controlled by the government, as should medicine and education. Pretty much everything else should, I believe, be private and there should be no support for private business under any circumstance. If someone gets a profit from a business then they should suffer the consequences if the business fails.

Other opinions are obviously available.

Even if that leads to hundreds of thousands of job losses, often regional. It’s not the owners or someone like bmw that I am thinking of, just the workers or other companies.

And yes, things like banks could cause a catastrophic knock on effect in markets as we have seen in the past.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Even if that leads to hundreds of thousands of job losses, often regional. It’s not the owners or someone like bmw that I am thinking of, just the workers or other companies.

And yes, things like banks could cause a catastrophic knock on effect in markets as we have seen in the past.

I see no reason why governments should not nationalise, without compensation, important organisations that have failed, then run them down smoothly, allowing both staff and customers to go elsewhere with the minimum of disruption.

What I think that government should never do, is prop up commercial organisations to the benefit of the shareholders or the managers. They made the mistakes, they must take the consequences.

Such is the theory of Capitalism.

 

[Pound Coin]

Do you mean utilities?

When the collieries closed so did the privately owned newsagents, tobacconists, grocers, electrical dealers, furniture stores..... Where there were 5,000 employees now there are about fifty small businesses each employing a handful of staff. Imagine that all over Europe.

BMW are a small company in the world of car manufacture. VAG, Mercedes and the two big French companies dwarf them.

Closure of the collieries the way it was done was monstrously damaging. As you say, it was absolutely not about saving 50p on a tonne of coal, or beating the unions (or whatever other dog whistle Thatcher used) it was about change so fast that whole regions were devastated. The costs of which are still being felt now, decades after the 50p a tonne saving was realised.

 

[Steep]

(I've looked at the Chinese MG's - good price........ but the interior is not as good/attractive as the BMW's)

They are a third of the price though, you don't expect 70k finish on a 24k car.

 

[JohnMcL7]

The Far East is definitely the biggest threat. It might be that Musk is preparing to throw in the towel as the article states that there has been zero new product development at Teslar since the Cybertruck launch. And he seems to be preoccupied elsewhere. Manufacturers in Germany, France, Spain and Italy might get support from their governments if EU rules on them propping up ailing companies are amended.

It certainly looks the case that there's no new cars from Tesla with Musk frequently claiming Tesla is an 'AI' company and their future is in Robotaxis and robots despite all their money coming from car sales. Which seems weird given Tesla were ahead with their electric vehicles but they seem to be squandering that lead to compete in other industries they're years behind in. I wonder if Musk was ousted and they returned to electric car development if they could return to their market position or it's too late now.

I think you're right about the threat from China and wonder if we'll see similar moves in Europe as there was in the US to add significant tariffs to Chinese cars to make them uncompetitive.

 

[Steep]

Chinese cars are already subject to as much as 45% tarriffs in Europe depending on how much the Chinese Gov subsidises the manufacturer.

 

[Pound Coin]

Chinese cars are already subject to as much as 45% tarriffs in Europe depending on how much the Chinese Gov subsidises the manufacturer.

Thinking about cheap cars from Far East.

Can these be compared with cheap clothes from the Far East?

 

[Clive K]

Chinese cars are already subject to as much as 45% tarriffs in Europe depending on how much the Chinese Gov subsidises the manufacturer.

Looks like BYD in France are clearing out their old technology vehicles. Now around €27,000 for new / unregistered EVs.

 

[F1.2]

Yes it's " Shocking "

 

[Delphin]

(I've looked at the Chinese MG's - good price........ but the interior is not as good/attractive as the BMW's)

But it's not supposed to be, MG is more equivalent to Ford or Vauxhall, not BMW

 

[Delphin]

Interesting piece about the insurance cost of Chinese EV, it not the batteries it's the security that has raised the price.

There is little to no car theft in the home market, and now they have been told to up their game for the UK car theft market.

Chinese carmakers told to improve locking devices for UK market

UK insurers require critical modifications for sale in country with higher levels of car theft than China

www.theguardian.com

 

[andya700]

The push to eradicate sales of ICE vehicles in the EU by 2035, could result in an economic disaster.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itCrrA9ju0g

 

[c18rch]

Yeah, exactly. What real choice do people have until there is clarity on what will happen in 2030/35. You could end up wit a car with no re-sale value. I was going to change my car next year, but now I honestly think I'll just keep it until it dies or until there are some viable alternatives, which, the Chinese stuff is not for me.

 

[LCPete]

Yeah, exactly. What real choice do people have until there is clarity on what will happen in 2030/35. You could end up wit a car with no re-sale value. I was going to change my car next year, but now I honestly think I'll just keep it until it dies or until there are some viable alternatives, which, the Chinese stuff is not for me.

We are in a similar situation our current petrol car does everything we need and is completely reliable, an EV is out of our budget anyway
Will keep ours as long as possible

 

[Steep]

The push to eradicate sales of ICE vehicles in the EU by 2035, could result in an economic disaster.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itCrrA9ju0g

It's really difficult to feel sympathy for car makers, they have made an absolute fortune from Joe public for decades. They've done everything they could to protect their profit margins.
Now if they want to continue to do business they have to change and they can't pass the cost of that change on to the customer which means shareholders don't get the payouts.

The video has a perfect example of their locked in thinking. Ford dumping the small car in favour of a reincarnated niche car the Capri. It was never their best selling car the first time around. The world has changed but the suits that run the companies haven't, that's not even an ev/ice argument it's an unimaginative staid stuck in the mud run by accountants argument, a keep the share value high argument.

2035 will not be an economic disaster for you and me and it needn't be for the automotive industry. They just need to make cars people want to buy at prices they can afford. If that means shareholders don't get the big payouts and Jim Farley (for example) takes a pay cut on his $25million salary then so be it.

 

[AndrewFlannigan]

Will keep ours as long as possible

I feel the same way.

My sole reason for disliking electric cars is that people have been bribed with discounts at the checkout, funded by the rest of us and being let off taxes that are important to us all. If they had been left to sink or swim, like any other commercial product and specific taxes charged on them as for any other item, I would have no problem with them at all.

 

[LCPete]

It's really difficult to feel sympathy for car makers, they have made an absolute fortune from Joe public for decades. They've done everything they could to protect their profit margins.
Now if they want to continue to do business they have to change and they can't pass the cost of that change on to the customer which means shareholders don't get the payouts.

The video has a perfect example of their locked in thinking. Ford dumping the small car in favour of a reincarnated niche car the Capri. It was never their best selling car the first time around. The world has changed but the suits that run the companies haven't, that's not even an ev/ice argument it's an unimaginative staid stuck in the mud run by accountants argument, a keep the share value high argument.

2035 will not be an economic disaster for you and me and it needn't be for the automotive industry. They just need to make cars people want to buy at prices they can afford. If that means shareholders don't get the big payouts and Jim Farley (for example) takes a pay cut on his $25million salary then so be it.

Yes and if the established US and European car makers don’t the Chinese car manufacturers certainly will
I have also wondered why a lot of electric cars are great big heavy things surely a small light body with a decent sized battery would be all most people need in a car, not something the size and weight of a truck

 

[Steep]

Yes and if the established US and European car makers don’t the Chinese car manufacturers certainly will
I have also wondered why a lot of electric cars are great big heavy things surely a small light body with a decent sized battery would be all most people need in a car, not something the size and weight of a truck

Again this is coming, battery tech in the pipeline means batteries 1/3 the size with the same or better range. Less materials means lower cost, or it should.
Big heavy electric cars are not going to have it easy, if the thinking on pay per mile, cost depending on weight (to replace lost petrol tax revenue) comes to anything. It's going to be more costly for me in my 1725kg car. Luckily I'd miss the cut off at 2000kg for the really expensive charges.

 

[BillN_33]

I feel the same way.

My sole reason for disliking electric cars is that people have been bribed with discounts at the checkout, funded by the rest of us and being let off taxes that are important to us all. If they had been left to sink or swim, like any other commercial product and specific taxes charged on them as for any other item, I would have no problem with them at all.

I don't think "bribed" is the correct word

Company Car recipients have been influenced by the Government BIK rates which must have been a major boost for Tesla sales ........ more so in the early years, (when there was little competition)

and again

Electric vehicles still benefit for the very attractive BIK rates for Company Cars ....... which were further "improved" by "salary sacrifice" schemes ....... this allowed very expensive Electric vehicles, £60k to £150k, to be run as Company vehicles on very favourable personal financial terms versus ICE vehicles ........ a peculiarity to the UK

I think that the "taxation" policies have been more of an incentive than Government subsidies.

For the private buyer ....... maybe the discounts has been an influence ...... but you would be surprised how many of the expensive EV are company vehicles which are "rented" on a monthly fixed term basis, (2 to 5 years)

In the coming years, for the private buyer, Chinese EV car prices will be the determinant for many private buyers

 

[srichards]

The European car manufacturers have basically become BL of the 1970s that were eaten alive by the Japanese car industry.

Ford are stupid. Had they called the Capri something else like a Taurus or Mondeo nobody would have been so bothered but it was just a re-hashed VW like the explorer was.

The Puma Gen E is actually half decent but Ford have just made such idiots of themselves you can't take them seriously plus wet belts and general warranty claims suggests they're a brand with really poor reliability and few people want to buy into that.

 

[Pound Coin]

So, the European car industry is at hugh risk from the far East. Is that similar to the history of the electronics, footwear, clothing, etc. industries?

 

[mj4456]

If the production of ice cars is stopped in 2030/35? there will still be a huge amount of second hand ice cars available to the public, possibly at knock down prices, will this mean ev sales will still have stalled or will there be another incentive to buy battery offered?

 

[Nod]

With the number of wet belt engines around, can future supplies of ICE be guaranteed?