Who is a professional photographer

The OED offers several definitions of 'professional' with a slight variation dependent on whether it is being used as a noun or adjective.
"Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as an amateur" is one definition. Another is, " A person competent or skilled in a particular activity:"

Therefore you could have someone who is not very good at photography but earns his/her main income from it justifiably calling him/herself a professional photographer. Using the second definition someone who is "competent or skilled" but who never earns money from photography could also be described as 'professional'.
 
BBR said:
The OED offers several definitions of 'professional' with a slight variation dependent on whether it is being used as a noun or adjective.
"Engaged in a specified activity as one’s main paid occupation rather than as an amateur" is one definition. Another is, " A person competent or skilled in a particular activity:"
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....That has always been my understanding too and also that of paid professionals I have art directed and hired for many decades.

BBR said:
Therefore you could have someone who is not very good at photography but earns his/her main income from it justifiably calling him/herself a professional photographer. Using the second definition someone who is "competent or skilled" but who never earns money from photography could also be described as 'professional'.
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....An amateur's (unpaid practitioner) work might be described as professional but that should only be an adjective used by others and not by the amateur.

It's simple: If your main source of income is photography, you are a professional and whether you are a good one or not depends on others to decide, not you. If it's not your main source of income you simply are not a professional whether your work is good enough or not.

If you are part-timer earning money from it, then you might describe yourself as a semi-professional.

Don't call yourself a professional unless you really are and not just because you like the image of being one!

:)
 
RedRobin said:
It's simple: If your main source of income is photography, you are a professional
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If it was that simple, we wouldn't be arguing about it!

RedRobin said:
Don't call yourself a professional unless you really are
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Even if you are, just call yourself a photographer (or whatever). Prefixing it with professional is superfluous and irrelevant to most people.


Steve.
 
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I feel the term "professional photographer" comes with an expectation of professionalism, it's more than just making many from it.

When a client hires a professional photographer, the client has expectations as to the quality of images that will be produced, that the work will be undertaken in a professional way and that the client will be treated in a professional way.

I feel the term has relevance in the expectations of how other photographers perceive the photographer, too.
 
JennyGW said:
I feel the term "professional photographer" comes with an expectation of professionalism, it's more than just making many from it.

When a client hires a professional photographer, the client has expectations as to the quality of images that will be produced, that the work will be undertaken in a professional way and that the client will be treated in a professional way.

I feel the term has relevance in the expectations of how other photographers perceive the photographer, too.
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...."in a professional way" uses the term as an adjective to describe and not as a job title.

But, you're right - We could debate this until the cows come home. So enough said from me. :)
 
The cows have not only arrived, but have now departed again due to the pure tedium. I think this thread has been 'milked' enough.
 
Are they professional cows?

I really think that this is only of interest to photographers. The general public couldn't care less. If they want a photographer, they will look for a photographer, not a professional photographer.

Equally, I'm sure they don't search for professional accountants, lawyers, cheese makers, etc. when they need their services.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
I really think that this is only of interest to photographers. The general public couldn't care less. If they want a photographer, they will look for a photographer, not a professional photographer.

Equally, I'm sure they don't search for professional accountants, lawyers, cheese makers, etc. when they need their services.


Steve.
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....Only a fool would hire the services of an accountant or lawyer who wasn't qualified as a professional!

When I used to hire photographers I would never ever hire anyone who wasn't a professional, and they had to have a high standard of portfolio to back it up.
 
RedRobin said:
....Only a fool would hire the services of an accountant or lawyer who wasn't qualified as a professional!

When I used to hire photographers I would never ever hire anyone who wasn't a professional, and they had to have a high standard of portfolio to back it up.
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Yes - but nobody looks for the word professional in their titles (qualification is a completely different subject).

And you could argue that the very fact that you hired them made them professional, regardless of their status up to that point.


Steve.
 
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The trouble is with threads on this topic is that too many flippin' amateurs join in! (JOKE!!! lol ;) ) :D
 
Do you earn a living from photography? If so, then you're a professional. However.... are your images professional? Whether someone earns a living from it is one thing, but BEING professional is something else entirely. I know many professionals who know nothing, and take crap images, and many amateurs who know a great deal and take some amazing images.

With that in mind... it's a pointless distinction to make, as being paid for your work doesn't in itself improve your work. Judging by the amount of crap wedding and social portraiture photography around by people who charge for it, the dictionary definition of professional leaves a great deal to be desired.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Do you earn a living from photography? If so, then you're a professional. However.... are your images professional? Whether someone earns a living from it is one thing, but BEING professional is something else entirely. I know many professionals who know nothing, and take crap images, and many amateurs who know a great deal and take some amazing images.

With that in mind... it's a pointless distinction to make, as being paid for your work doesn't in itself improve your work. Judging by the amount of crap wedding and social portraiture photography around by people who charge for it, the dictionary definition of professional leaves a great deal to be desired.
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Nailed it. :D
 
George Carlin once said 'somewhere out there is the worlds worst doctor. And someone has an appointment with him tomorrow!!!' Sadly, this is true.

Being labelled a professional doesn't necessarily mean you're any good at your 'profession'...

Probably not helpful to the argument, but I thought it sounded pretty good. ;)
 
I think this thread says a lot about this forum, its darkest side IMHO.

Every time the innocent question is raised 'what is a professional', there's a queue of people waiting to air the totally pointless 'just because they're professional doesn't mean they're any good at photography'. Of course it doesn't, it's so obvious it hardly needs stating, but people can't help themselves, they queue up to make themselves feel better by putting others down.

Is there any wonder we have problems as a community appealing to professionals? We have a regular membership of mostly part timers, with a steady flow of 'just starting out in business' photographers who will leave to be replaced by more new guys, they don't hang around because of this sort of crap.

And who's watching all the business threads? A bunch if trolls waiting to make snide remarks so they can feel superior. Have a good look at yourselves folks, this is supposed to be the friendly place we get together to help others.

That started the year off on a cheery note:oops: :$

Happy new year :D
Let's see if we can be a bit nicer shall we:banana:
 
Phil V said:
I think this thread says a lot about this forum, its darkest side IMHO.

Every time the innocent question is raised 'what is a professional', there's a queue of people waiting to air the totally pointless 'just because they're professional doesn't mean they're any good at photography'. Of course it doesn't, it's so obvious it hardly needs stating, but people can't help themselves, they queue up to make themselves feel better by putting others down.
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With all due respect, it's not abut putting anyone down, it's about making it quite clear that being "a professional" doesn't just stop with being paid for what you do. If someone wants to be regarded as a professional photographer, they can either merely endeavour to be paid for their work, regardless of how good or bad that work is and leave it right there, or they can appreciate that being professional includes a great deal more.

I would suggest that we'd be remiss as a community if we merely encouraged people to get paid for their work, regardless of how good it was.
 
Pookeyhead said:
With all due respect, it's not abut putting anyone down, it's about making it quite clear that being "a professional" doesn't just stop with being paid for what you do. If someone wants to be regarded as a professional photographer, they can either merely endeavour to be paid for their work, regardless of how good or bad that work is and leave it right there, or they can appreciate that being professional includes a great deal more.

I would suggest that we'd be remiss as a community if we merely encouraged people to get paid for their work, regardless of how good it was.
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I don't disagree with that, but if you read this thread back, that's not really the point I was making.

Bearing in mind I'm 'on the fence' here. But there are just so many threads on this forum which take this tone, and frankly I find it disgusting, and if you read the business forum, you'll see how difficult it is to get a wide number of pro's to contribute regularly.
 
In a language where words have different meanings to different people the following two sentences do not have to apply simultaneously

1. A Professional Photographer
2. A Photographer who is Professional

And then there are these 2 sentences

3. A photographer who claims to be professional
3. A photographer who claims to be a professional

A much better discussion would be "what would you expect from somebody that is offering you a professional photography service i.e. one you are paying for"

Mike
 
mike weeks said:
In a language where words have different meanings to different people the following two sentences do not have to apply simultaneously

1. A Professional Photographer
2. A Photographer who is Professional

And then there are these 2 sentences

3. A photographer who claims to be professional
3. A photographer who claims to be a professional

A much better discussion would be "what would you expect from somebody that is offering you a professional photography service i.e. one you are paying for"

Mike
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Start the thread Mike. It might present the start of a 'professional photography yardstick' to measure us against.
 
Phil V said:
But there are just so many threads on this forum which take this tone,
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What tone? That being professional is more than merely being paid for taking photographs? I'm sorry, but they're correct.. it is.
 
I think phil meant the tone taken by people making snide remarks about proffesionals especially without putting anything substantive to back up their position

end of the day i doubt there are many full time serious proffesional photographers who don't behave with proffesionalism in the wider sense, not least because those few that don't don't stay in business
 
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big soft moose said:
I think phil meant the tone taken by people making snide remarks about proffesionals especially without putting anything substantive to back up their position
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Oh THAT... I get it now. Well... that's just jealousy and sour grapes from wannabes... surely we can just ignore that and move on can't we?
 
Pookeyhead said:
Oh THAT... I get it now. Well... that's just jealousy and sour grapes from wannabes... surely we can just ignore that and move on can't we?
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It's easy to ignore David, my reason for mentioning it is that TP would like to appeal to a wider spectrum of professionals and the negativity isn't helping that.
 
Phil V said:
It's easy to ignore David, my reason for mentioning it is that TP would like to appeal to a wider spectrum of professionals and the negativity isn't helping that.
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Well it's certainly inimical to any that produce work of a more serious, documentary, or art based nature... ask me how I know LOL.

While TP may WANT something, it doesn't mean they're going to get it. The forum is made up of the photographic public so to speak, so it's a product of it's members. The vast majority are amateur/hobbyist, and they are an arch-conservative, traditionalist lot at the best of times.
 
Most 'professionals' are more than likely too busy with their profession to participate in forums... Any that I've met are...
 
sunnyside_up said:
Most 'professionals' are more than likely too busy with their profession to participate in forums... Any that I've met are...
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Yet here you are :)
 
Take photographer out of the equation and think of the term professional driver. This could be applied to someone working in heavy haulage moving oversized, indivisible loads or it could apply to a taxi driver - one is highly skilled and the other one usually doesn't even know how indicators work.

Professional is not always a mark of quality.


Steve.
 
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sunnyside_up said:
Most 'professionals' are more than likely too busy with their profession to participate in forums... Any that I've met are...
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If that's true does it therefore follow that any professional who's willing to help people out on forums deserves derision because they're not good enough to be too busy to be here?

Do they deserve even less respect if they are not just helpful members but also give up their time to moderate?

What about teachers?

What about policemen who choose to spend time here, or medical professionals?

Or part timers? where do we draw the line? Should they all be too busy to help others? Are the only worthy members amateurs who have menial full time jobs?
 
Do people, no matter how professional, not have the right to some free time where they can do whatever they like? - including posting on forums?


Steve.
 
Is there an element of busmans holiday working all day at photography then discussing on a forum.

I never frequent database or programmers hangouts, I don't want to talk about work related stuff in my free time.
 
Phil V said:
If that's true does it therefore follow that any professional who's willing to help people out on forums deserves derision because they're not good enough to be too busy to be here?
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There's also the assumption that being busy precludes you from the internet. Anyone who works in photography today will be spending a great deal of time on social media, Twitter, Instagram etc. It's how you market yourself these days. If you don't realise that, you're already a dead dinosaur.

I still work as a photographer. I teach it full time. I've got 4 documentary projects on the go, and one book being edited for publication... not to mention up and coming exhibitions I need to print for. I'm still here and I'm HUGELY busy.

steveo_mcg said:
Is there an element of busmans holiday working all day at photography then discussing on a forum.
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If what you do is your passion, I disagree strongly. I LOVE discussing photography. Always have, always will.


Steve Smith said:
Do people, no matter how professional, not have the right to some free time where they can do whatever they like? - including posting on forums?


Steve.
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It would appear not. LOL We should be working 24 hours a day... we are not allowed a couple of hours a day to do other stuff :)
 
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When I am 'working' as a photographer, there's a lot of screen time, I'll break up with reading and writing on forums, and other social media. When I'm not 'working as a photographer' I spend a lot of my life on-line, sometimes whilst I'm busy doing other things, sometimes it's all I'm doing.

I consider it an achievement if I've helped someone either by PM or in a post, but I suppose I ought to be ashamed for wasting my life on the internet.
 
Pookeyhead said:
I still work as a photographer. I teach it full time. I've got 4 documentary projects on the go, and one book being edited for publication... not to mention up and coming exhibitions I need to print for. I'm still here and I'm HUGELY busy.



If what you do is your passion, I disagree strongly. I LOVE discussing photography. Always have, always will. :)
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Please excuse the snip, David.

The first paragraph makes you (IMO) a professional in that you make your living from photography, whether as a practitioner or an instructor/tutor/lecturer. The second paragraph makes you an amateur (in the strict meaning of the word) because you have a passion for the art/hobby/craft.
 
Nod said:
The first paragraph makes you (IMO) a professional in that you make your living from photography, whether as a practitioner or an instructor/tutor/lecturer. The second paragraph makes you an amateur (in the strict meaning of the word) because you have a passion for the art/hobby/craft.
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Yes. The Latin word which amateur comes from means a lover of. So you can be concurrently professional and amateur.


Steve.
 
Surely if its your profession then your a professional
 
Nod said:
Please excuse the snip, David.

The first paragraph makes you (IMO) a professional in that you make your living from photography, whether as a practitioner or an instructor/tutor/lecturer. The second paragraph makes you an amateur (in the strict meaning of the word) because you have a passion for the art/hobby/craft.
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That's nonsense. It implies that you can not be passionate about what you do for a living. You can't say it makes you an amateur because of the etymology of the word :) Many people are passionate about what they do for a living, and it makes them damned good at what they do.

They are fortunate because they get paid for something they'd be doing any way. That doesn't mean they are not professional.
 
I wasn't implying that it does in the slightest! As Steve spotted, my meaning was that an amateur loves what he/she does and in no way makes him/her any less of a professional should she/he do it for reward rather than purely for love. As you say, people who love what they do are generally damn good at it (and are very lucky!)
 
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