Who is a professional photographer

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realspeed

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It obviously woudd be someone who makes a living from photography

Or more debatable ,someone who has taken a couple of photographs and be lucky enough to have sold them ,but not their main means of income

From whatI understand a professional photographer to be is the latter, once sold a photo that puts them in the professional class.

AsI said it is for my own curiosity and not having a go at any members , just a general question to all.
 
Theoretically you can be a professional without selling anything. You could set up in business, advertise, get all of the equipment, register for tax and form a limited company - then never get any customers!


Steve.
 
I think that to be called a professional, photography has to be your main source of income.

When I was a professional Art Director (being paid to direct various professional photography specialists) usually on larger format cameras, I would occasionally sell photos which I took on my 35mm film Nikon and Canon cameras. I then called myself semi-professional as far as my photos were concerned. My own limited company still got the tax benefits of course!

Now I call myself an amateur, have been learning digital for a year and am not interested in selling my work.
 
Yes because some of us missed it last time around
 
KIPAX said:
and the time before and the time before and the search button :)
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Don't fret, it'll soon be the new year
and we can "reset to zero", with the
Canon v Nikon
mac v PC
RAW v Jpeg
They'll do for starters anyway :thumbs:

;)
 
I'd say to be a professional photographer then photography would be your main source of income.

Income can be a funny thing though as some people with other jobs may sell images for big money and some pros may not earn a great deal.

I'd say it has to be your main job.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
All income generated through photography - full time professional

Proportion of regular income derived through photography - part time professional
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And someone who doesn't care about titles (got one already - integration engineer) and just like taking photos - hobbyist :)
 
Cobra said:
Don't fret, it'll soon be the new year
and we can "reset to zero", with the
Canon v Nikon
mac v PC
RAW v Jpeg
They'll do for starters anyway (y)

;)
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Nope, you left out UV/protection filter, or not. :D
 
Steve Smith said:
Another thought... who cares?!!
Steve.
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I'd go with that however some one some where in the civil service presumably has a definition because Professional Photographers are on the list of Passport Counter signatories.

One would presume their definition would include accredited membership of a professional body most of whom require their members to be practicing commercial photographers.
 
abbandon said:
I'd go with that however some one some where in the civil service presumably has a definition because Professional Photographers are on the list of Passport Counter signatories.
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Is that because they are all trustworthy pillars of the community? Like politicians and lawyers!

abandon said:
One would presume their definition would include accredited membership of a professional body most of whom require their members to be practicing commercial photographers.
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Which has nothing to do with it!


Steve.
 
Cobra said:
Don't fret, it'll soon be the new year
and we can "reset to zero", with the
Canon v Nikon
mac v PC
RAW v Jpeg
They'll do for starters anyway (y)

;)
Click to expand...


A professional photographer is he who always keeps a UV on his Canon, shoots only RAW on manual setting through 'L' series lenses, and processes using Photoshop. All his landscapes are mono, his portraits shot at f/1.4, and he never shoots blurry waterfalls, or uses spot colour. He has at least eight letters after his name.
 
Mono? Wow!

A colleague of mine always claimed he was a professional photographer as he'd studied it and was qualified. Even though he didn't do it for a living, being a technical illustrator. So was he?

They used to sell camera neck straps with the word PROFESSIONAL printed all down it. Needless to say the pros all wanted one in the hope of getting into gigs for free.
 
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The other thread issued the idea of professionalism/conduct and proficiency/competence. It was an interesting angle. A pro would turn up on time, presented well, prepared with back up equipment, I'd expect them to be a highly skilled photographer taking excellent images.

The word amature suggests a lack of skill, or an unprofessional approach, poor images etc. However they could still make their living from photography, although it be unlikely. The phrase hobbyist is perhaps a better one for proficient, non making a living photographers
 
abbandon said:
I'd go with that however some one some where in the civil service presumably has a definition because Professional Photographers are on the list of Passport Counter signatories.

One would presume their definition would include accredited membership of a professional body most of whom require their members to be practicing commercial photographers.
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Simply because the photographer taking the picture has the person and the photo, I believe the procedure is different from the other signatories who have to have known the person for a specified time. The guidance is so outdated and written before every person with a bridge camera had a 'professional' Facebook page.
 
ST4 said:
The other thread issued the idea of professionalism/conduct and proficiency/competence. It was an interesting angle. A pro would turn up on time, presented well, prepared with back up equipment, I'd expect them to be a highly skilled photographer taking excellent images.

The word amature suggests a lack of skill, or an unprofessional approach, poor images etc. However they could still make their living from photography, although it be unlikely. The phrase hobbyist is perhaps a better one for proficient, non making a living photographers
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The other thread did bring this up. But that doesn't mean it's not [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]. Professional and professionalism are 2 totally different things. Although they really ought to go hand in hand (but that's subjective).

The reason the 'professional' handle is attached to 'photographer' is to make the distinction that it's done to make money. Like actor, musician, painter, footballer etc (artisans and sportspeople), many people can be described as a footballer or photographer, but only some people do it for a living, those people are professional.

Throughout the history of photography there have been some amazing amateur photographers, in the same way 'professional' and 'professionalism' aren't the same thing, neither are 'amateur' and 'amatuerish'. Professionals can produce results that might be described as incompetent or amateurish, but if they got paid, they're still 'professional photographs'.
 
Also, a pro will quite often find themselves photographing things they don't particularly want to photograph. You're shooting for a client or a market. And a pro needs to be able to get the shot regardless of conditions. Hence the need to absolutely understand how to get the best out of whatever kit you are using, and why we tend to spend extra to get more versatile and reliable gear. And to pose with it, of course. :)
 
For all practical purposes, someone who makes money from their photography. There's no legal benchmark or definition; in the sense of qualifications, internship, or compulsory registration with a professional body.

Many people probably assume that a professional has to produce consistently good work and earn all, or a significant proportion, of their income from photography - as opposed to selling an image once or twice - but these are perceptions more than anything else.
 
Chris_911 said:
For me it has to be someone who earns her/his living, or a signifcant proportion of it from photography.
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I think the idea that you need to earn the majority of your income from something in order to call yourself a professional is nonsense.

What if you had three differing jobs which you worked in equal proportions? does that mean you cannot be a professional in any of them?

Even with two differing jobs in equal proportions, the definition doesn't work.

Phil V summed it up (here and in a previous thread). Professional is only ever applied to professions which can also be hobbies and interests like footballer, artist, musician, etc. You never hear about professional doctors or professional bank managers.


Steve.
 
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Ask yourselves this question: What is your profession or trade?

It can be one of any variety of jobs which you do to make a living. Your profession can be a teacher, a doctor, a policeman (or policewoman), an actor/actress, a photographer, an undertaker, etc etc etc.

However, if you make your living from buying and selling goods, you are not usually described as a professional but as a tradesman. As are plumbers, electricians, builders, etc.

As Phil V said earlier, you are only 'professional' if you conduct your job, whatever it is, in a highly regarded professional manner. Even if you fail at something your conduct may be described as very professional - Nico Rosberg's behaviour after not beating Lewis Hamilton to become F1 World Champion, for example.

When I raced bicycles I was officially an Amateur Racing Cyclist as I did not have a licence to race as a paid Professional. I was not a Hobbyist Racing Cyclist and I am not a hobbyist photographer - I take my photography more seriously than that, I never sell my photography and so I am an Amateur Photographer. I don't have any paid job - I don't have time to work! Hobbies are interests you enjoy just to pass the time. Your hobby might be watching football matches, for example.

Steve Smith said:
What if you had three differing jobs which you worked in equal proportions? does that mean you cannot be a professional in any of them?
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....Probably a jack of all trades and master of none.

:)

 
viv1969 said:
Fine post..spoiled by the last line.
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....I wrote it a little tongue-in-cheek, Ruth. But I guess I should have added a smilie such as > :D
 
Just to point out that the passport thing was more that I had not seen it mentioned it is not my opinion.

When out and about I often get asked if I am a professional the answer is of course no. Lots of places it seems seem to think tripod and larger equipment must = pro to which I point out they probably missed the pros carrying the likes of the 5D MkII etc
 
abbandon said:
When out and about I often get asked if I am a professional the answer is of course no. Lots of places it seems seem to think tripod and larger equipment must = pro to which I point out they probably missed the pros carrying the likes of the 5D MkII etc
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Or it might be because you construct your camera out of a large suitcase :)
 
Phil V said:
The reason the 'professional' handle is attached to 'photographer' is to make the distinction that it's done to make money. Like actor, musician, painter, footballer etc (artisans and sportspeople), many people can be described as a footballer or photographer, but only some people do it for a living, those people are professional.
.
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but a lot of musicians, artists, actors etc also work other jobs - particulrly at the start of their careers, so are they not proffesionals because they do something else as well ?

Its a difficult one - those of us who are part time or occasional proffesionals - ie we have a day job , but take paying gigs on the side , would be considered proffesional by the revenue - that is we are doing it to make money , and therefore need to pay some tax, but we aren't full time proffesionals in the same way as someone who's fully reliant on photography for their income.

But then again, what about "proffesionals" who actually dereive a greater part of their income from training, workshops, tours etc rather than actually taking photos ?

And so forth - end of the day its more shades of grey than black and white
 
It's just a word. It doesn't change anything.

I work full time as an engineer. I consider myself to be professional at that. I play as a musician most weekends and I consider that I do that professionally. I also do live sound engineering less frequently - possibly with a couple of months gap between jobs but I also consider myself professional at that.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
It's just a word. It doesn't change anything.

I work full time as an engineer. I consider myself to be professional at that. I play as a musician most weekends and I consider that I do that professionally. I also do live sound engineering less frequently - possibly with a couple of months gap between jobs but I also consider myself professional at that.


Steve.
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But if asked to name your proffesion - on a passport app for example - do you put engineer or do you put musician ?
 
big soft moose said:
But if asked to name your proffesion - on a passport app for example - do you put engineer or do you put musician ?
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On a passport I would put engineer. In a social gathering I would say musician and/or live sound engineer (whichever appeared more cool at the time!).

In my case above, I use the term professional in a similar way to competent rather than an indication of earning ability.


Steve.
 
big soft moose said:
but a lot of musicians, artists, actors etc also work other jobs - particulrly at the start of their careers, so are they not proffesionals because they do something else as well ?

Its a difficult one - those of us who are part time or occasional proffesionals - ie we have a day job , but take paying gigs on the side , would be considered proffesional by the revenue - that is we are doing it to make money , and therefore need to pay some tax, but we aren't full time proffesionals in the same way as someone who's fully reliant on photography for their income.

But then again, what about "proffesionals" who actually dereive a greater part of their income from training, workshops, tours etc rather than actually taking photos ?

And so forth - end of the day its more shades of grey than black and white
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Someone else said 'you can't be a little bit pregnant'

When you attend a wedding for money, you're a professional to everyone who matters, the customer, the pguests you're herding around, the venue staff and the Inland Revenue. No-one's looking at you and seeing a 'National Trust employee', a 'tree surgeon' or a 'World Class Googler' ;) Likewise Steve is sometimes a professional musician and at other times, he isn't.

I would hope that the people who do it full time would see us as an equal at that point, even if we'reonly a part timer whilst sat in the office of the day job on our lunch break now. So IMO it is black and white, If you're getting paid you're a professional, whilst you're not getting paid you're not. I'm not sure a passport form uses the word 'Profession' because most people don't have one, the 'profession's' in a traditional sense being Law, Medicine etc... In my day job I'm not a professional, I have an occupation, if the passport form asked me to list them all I would. But I think it only expects one and most people would choose the one they spend most time doing, when the one that earns the most could feasibly be different.
 
Phil V said:
Likewise Steve is sometimes a professional musician and at other times, he isn't.
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You have heard me play then!!!

And further to me previous post, no matter what I tell people I do, I would not put the word professional in front of it. I would just say musician or engineer, not professional musician or professional engineer.

Phil V said:
But I think it only expects one and most people would choose the one they spend most time doing, when the one that earns the most could feasibly be different.
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The one I spend most time doing earns me the most money in the year but by far the least if worked out as an hourly rate.


Steve.
 
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