When are you a professional photographer

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Studi0488

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Probably been asked before, but when are you classed as a professional photographer ? Is there a difference between photographer and professional photographer, or is it just words.
 
Studi0488 said:
Probably been asked before, but when are you classed as a professional photographer ? Is there a difference between photographer and professional photographer, or is it just words.
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If you earn money from it, you are a professional. That's the literal definition anyway. To me it means something else: It means being completely expert in your field, and producing incredibly high quality work that's innovative and creative as well. It also means professional behaviour in how you conduct yourself... and your business.
 
Pookeyhead said:
If you earn money from it, you are a professional. That's the literal definition anyway. To me it means something else: It means being completely expert in your field, and producing incredibly high quality work that's innovative and creative as well. It also means professional behaviour in how you conduct yourself... and your business.
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Good answer :)
 
Pro for me = making a living from it ... ie it is your 'profession', what you do to support your family, home and bank manager.
Anything else means you just make money from your photographic skills.
 
gramps said:
Pro for me = making a living from it ... ie it is your 'profession', what you do to support your family, home and bank manager.
Anything else means you just make money from your photographic skills.
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Surely that's the wrong way around?

So if someone took shoddy, poor quality photos, offered no real customer service, was rude, behaved inappropriately and never showed up on time, or failed to deliver the goods paid for... they'd still be professional in your mind? Surely THOSE people are "just making money"
 
Pookeyhead said:
Surely that's the wrong way around?

So if someone took shoddy, poor quality photos, offered no real customer service, was rude, behaved inappropriately and never showed up on time, or failed to deliver the goods paid for... they'd still be professional in your mind? Surely THOSE people are "just making money"
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You can be a professional, i.e. make your living from something without being professional in the way you do it.
Obviously a professional should be professional in behaviour and standards of work but in life that is definitely not always the case.
A 'professional' literally means someone who earns their living from what they do and differentiates between them and someone who is 'part-time' (e.g. B&Q Mon-Fri and weddings on Saturday) in what they do.
Of course a non-professional, part-timer may exhibit the utmost of professional standards and quality work, even exceeding those of some professionals.
 
The problem is in the word 'Professional' as it strictly means being paid

Being 'Professional' means so much more, as in (the oddly named :D ) Pookeyhead's definition above

People add it to try to differentiate them from amateur, often for implied status and oneupmanship . If I was with a bunch of photographers and they were all Pros I'd introduce myself as a Wedding Photographer to clarify my area of paid work; if the group was nothing specifically to do with photography I'd introduce myself as a Photographer; on a TP meet adding the word 'Professional' can be useful as its taken to mean you're good at photography and hence you get lots of 'Help me' questions, which is why I don't mention it on such meets - its quieter that way ;)

Dave
 
My take, professional can either mean you are paid to do it, or you do it to a high standard. Difference between 'a professional' and 'professional'.

IMHO
 
You make your sole/main living from it. . Nowt to do with talent and skill.

But if you dont have those skills you wont be doing business very long.

There are some superb togs on this site that shoot Wildlife etc..... But they are NOT 'Professional' As some may drive fork lifts for a living or gods forbid.......An Accountant!!!!

High standard does not make you a professional.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Surely that's the wrong way around?

So if someone took shoddy, poor quality photos, offered no real customer service, was rude, behaved inappropriately and never showed up on time, or failed to deliver the goods paid for... they'd still be professional in your mind? Surely THOSE people are "just making money"
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Unfortunately that's exactly what it means, which is why, at least in my own view, the term 'professional photographer' has become somewhat tainted.

There are so many chancers about claiming to be 'professionals', that the whole concept is now meaningless and there is almost no chance of reclaiming the ground. I know Daryl's suggested an industry wide qualification in the past (and to a large extent I agree), but I just can't see it being practicable.

It's one OOF the reasons that I prefer to call myself a working photographer rather than a 'Pro'. Apart from which, I don't play golf or work in 'the oldest profession'!
 
DemiLion said:
It's one OOF the reasons that I prefer to call myself a working photographer rather than a 'Pro'. Apart from which, I don't play golf or work in 'the oldest profession'!
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Actually.. I see your point. LOL

I refer to myself as a photographer. Anyone who feels the need to add the suffix professional to that title has too much to prove in my opinion.
 
The problem is the definitions of pofessional and pofessionalism, 2 words that sound like they're much more closely related than they are in reality, and when you show professionalism you can be 'professional' as well as being 'a professional'.

Professional in its true sense doesn't even need you to make a full time living, if you're shooting for money part time, you're a part time professional.

From a business perspective, professionalism is something else, it means you have a professional approach to all aspects of your business, from customer sevice to presentation.

I'd have to disagree with the post above regarding high quality and creative, because in truth you're as likely to find artistry in amateur or professional photographers.

The question arises because we have another definition of 'profession', which relates to jobs which require a high degree of training and knowledge, dedication and expertise, they are overseen by professional bodies and you can have your credentials revoked. eg. Doctor, Lawyer.

But Photographers arent unique here, a professional footballer can play at a low level and smoke and drink too much, a professional musician can play in a rubbish tribute band, a professional artist can have an independant income and sell half a dozen prints a year.

It's odd that some people see 'amateur' as an insult, which it isn't (unless its aimed at someone who beleives themselves to be a professional).

edit: Thats what I get for writing posts in between othe jobs, most of the above wasn't there when I wote this.
 
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Phil V said:
I'd have to disagree with the post above regarding high quality and creative, because in truth you're as likely to find artistry in amateur or professional photographers.
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That's actually true, and that wasn't what I was getting at. Those qualities were just part of a greater list of things that in my mind constitute professionalism. Apologies.. I know full well that some of the most creative stuff out there is can be found from "professional" and amateur alike.
 
There's another point that we're missing here ( or rather have so far)....

If you correctly expose a high ISO image ( either ETTR or otherwise), the subsequent noise will be minimised.

I'd rather see a well exposed frame at 6400 than a frame shot at 800 but four stops under. If you push ISO then more noise will result!
 
DemiLion said:
There's another point that we're missing here ( or rather have so far)....

If you correctly expose a high ISO image ( either ETTR or otherwise), the subsequent noise will be minimised.

I'd rather see a well exposed frame at 6400 than a frame shot at 800 but four stops under. If you push ISO then more noise will result!
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possible that might be on the wrong thread ;)
 
DemiLion said:
There's another point that we're missing here ( or rather have so far)....

If you correctly expose a high ISO image ( either ETTR or otherwise), the subsequent noise will be minimised.

I'd rather see a well exposed frame at 6400 than a frame shot at 800 but four stops under. If you push ISO then more noise will result!
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you should have turned right at talk equipment..
 
As I understand it there are actual definitions for semi-pro and pro photographers. I believe a person earning up to 50% of their income from photography & related is officially semi-pro. A person earning the majority of their income from photography & related is regarded as professional. I presume related pertains to PP/printing.
 
SimonH said:
As I understand it there are actual definitions for semi-pro and pro photographers. I believe a person earning up to 50% of their income from photography & related is officially semi-pro. A person earning the majority of their income from photography & related is regarded as professional. I presume related pertains to PP/printing.
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The tax man will take a different view :)
 
Make money = Professional
Don't make money = Amatuer.
Professional and professionalism are two different things


Why is it so hard for people to accept the simplicity if the situation?
 
so someone who's running a business at a loss is an amatuer :thinking:
 
big soft moose said:
so someone who's running a business at a loss is an amatuer :thinking:
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Who mentioned profit loss? .. someone will be giving you money for your services.. if your business is running at a loss your still charging for work so your still a profesional..

like i say.. simple.. but hard for some to understand it seems? :)
 
Pookeyhead said:
The tax man will take a different view :)
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Indeed, and of course that view will be a dim one! :)

Lest we forget, you're innocent of a crime until proven guilty, but guilty of owing taxes on your photos unless you can prove your innocence! :gag:
 
Studi0488 said:
Probably been asked before, but when are you classed as a professional photographer ? Is there a difference between photographer and professional photographer, or is it just words.
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when you earn the majority of your money from it - professional has nothing to do with skill ;)
 
All good :)

I call our business a professional studio, I.e dedicated space, designed and built as a studio.

The rest of us are just the people pressing the buttons. I have 6 staff that wouldn't know a camera from a chicken, but they could by all accounts call themselves pro photographers, because its there sole income.

I am so glad nobody mentioned qualifications. :)
 
Professional


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search


For other uses, see The Professionals.

A professional is a person who is paid to undertake a specialized set of tasks and to complete them for a fee. The traditional professions were doctors, engineers, lawyers, architects and commissioned military officers. Today, the term is applied to nurses, accountants, educators, scientists, technology experts, social workers, artists, librarians (information professionals) and many more.

The term is also used in sports to differentiate amateur players from those who are paid—hence "professional footballer" and "professional golfer". Many companies include the word professional in their store name to imply the quality of their workmanship or service.

In some cultures, the term is used as shorthand to describe a particular social stratum of well-educated, salaried workers who enjoy considerable work autonomy and are commonly engaged in creative and intellectually challenging work.[1][2][3][4]

Due to the personal and confidential nature of many professional services, and thus the necessity to place a great deal of trust in them, most professionals are subject to strict codes of conduct enshrining rigorous ethical and moral obligations.


Nuff said


Les :thumbs:
 
gramps said:
You can be a professional, i.e. make your living from something without being professional in the way you do it.
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Indeed, just watch an episode of rogue traders or the like, lol :)

Pookeyhead said:
It means being completely expert in your field, and producing incredibly high quality work that's innovative and creative as well. It also means professional behaviour in how you conduct yourself... and your business.
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Thats pretty much how i see it.
 
In my case probably never. I do it more so for the enjoyment than the potential to earn a living from.
 
Amateur - Makes no money from photography
Semi-Professional - Makes some money, but is not their main source of income
Professional - it's their main source of income.

But it's not necessary a reflection of their "professionalism", the quality of their work or the way they operate.
 
Pookeyhead said:
Surely that's the wrong way around?

So if someone took shoddy, poor quality photos, offered no real customer service, was rude, behaved inappropriately and never showed up on time, or failed to deliver the goods paid for... they'd still be professional in your mind? Surely THOSE people are "just making money"
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You must be talking about PROFESSIONAL footballers:lol:
If photography is your profession, then that is what you do for a living, irrespective of the quality of your work, or the way you interact with clients.
 
Pookeyhead said:
To me it means something else: It means being completely expert in your field, and producing incredibly high quality work that's innovative and creative as well. It also means professional behaviour in how you conduct yourself... and your business.
Click to expand...

Does this then include the dedicated amateurs who fit that definition but are clearly not professional. :thinking:
 
Though I don't think bad manners prevents you from being a full time pro, it can affect your reputation. The amount of times I've had people call me to cover events, because they "cannot stand X pro-photographer" are many. I don't always take the jobs, because I'm not a pro, and I may be busy with something else. But, when available I will, gladly. I guess I could be a semi-pro, as I do get paid whenever I work for others, and they always tell me my attitude is great, and I'm easy to work with. That will stand for me in the future.
 
It's this stupid double interpretation of the word 'professional'. I've met all sorts of 'professionals' who should be run out of whatever business they're in; cowboy builders, plumbers, mechanics - and of course photographers. But because of the fact that they earn money from their antics they are entitled to the term 'professional'.

So we need another term to define someone who makes money from an activity, and reserve the title of 'professional' for those who, whether they earn money from it or not, carry out their activity to a high standard dictated by their attitude. In this connection it is well to remember that 'professional' is often used as an opposite to 'amateur'. and amateur is so often used almost as a term of abuse as in, 'he's only an amateur'. Amateur' is a french word that means 'a lover of', which explains why so many who pursue photography purely for enjoyment produce work of a quality that many (but by no means all) 'professionals' could never achieve.
 
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Originally of course the term 'professional' identified someone who worked in what was known as the 'professions' i.e. Doctor, Barrister, Minister etc and reflected an extensive period of recognised training, a recognised qualification and the attachment to a recognised Governing Body.
 
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