When are you a professional photographer

possibly though his other posts give me grounds for scepticism on that - also I'd have expected even a freelancer to specialise to some degree as its virtually impossible to be good at every discipline (for example i do weddings 'proffesionally' , and shoot landscapes and wildlife recreationally , but ive no idea what i'm doing with studio work, or with most sports disciplines )
 
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big soft moose said:
possibly though his other posts give me grounds for scepticism on that - also I'd have expected even a freelancer to specialise to some degree as its virtually impossible to be good at every discipline (for example i do weddings 'proffesionally' , and shoot landscapes and wildlife recreationally , but ive no idea what i'm doing with studio work, or with most sports disciplines )
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Ironic how professionally is spelt :bonk: I have done that on a website once.....didn't go down well at all :lol:
 
yeah, i dont bother withthe speeling chuncker on forums - in a more professional that wouldnt happen
 
Phil V said:
:nono: misquoting to make a point? we don't need to sink to this.
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Phil, im not mis-quoting. When i say:-

But then go on to quote an alternative definition with no mention of making your living or earning money.
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I am referring to the definition of professionalism number 4

4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.
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Which is "an alternative definition with no mention of making your living or earning money."?

:thumbs:

EDIT I did mention post 9:-
Rapscallion said:
My take, professional can either mean you are paid to do it, or you do it to a high standard. Difference between 'a professional' and 'professional'.

IMHO
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Rapscallion said:
Phil, im not mis-quoting. When i say:-



I am referring to the definition of professionalism number 4



Which is "an alternative definition with no mention of making your living or earning money."?

:thumbs:

EDIT I did mention post 9:-
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I knew that but by only quoting and then referring only to part of the answer it didn't look right IMO and I thought it was out of character.

I still don't think there's more than one answer though A professional is someone who earns money for it. They can be crap, badly behaved whatever. But if they're all of that, they wont be professional.
 
So far as I can see you're a Professional Photographer if you earn your full time living from photography, regardless of the quality of you work, the specific area/s of photography you work around, regardless of the limit or expanse of you knowledge. A part of your required living (not pin money) you are semi-professional. No required living, (by which I mean you have a full time job not connected with photography, like an accountant) you are a hobbyist or amateur.

All of this has been said before and none of this thread is original.

I am beginning to wonder what the psyche is of people who get so wound up over this question.

I'd really like to understand, because I don't, why some people who don't make their living from photography get so boiled up at not being seen as a Professional Photographer when the term is used in the context of what you do for your job or business.

When I meet new people I say say I am a photographer.

EVERY job title or business occupation could have Professional in front of it: Professional Plumber, Professional Accountant, Professional Airline Pilot, Professional Shelf Stacker, based on the fairly universal, street level, general public perception of the word professional. You earn your main living from it.

As has already been said, it has nothing to do with the quality of work or the professionalism of you approach.

Three seperate elements.

1. Living
2. Quality/Skill
3. Attitude

I can cap a rat at 200 feet with a .22 air rifle at the weekend. Does not make me a professional sniper, even if my neighbour does pay me to do it and I'm polite and clean up afterwartds!
 
Daryl said:
Phil is right. Nail on head. Spot on,
How much longer do we have to go around in circles.... on this subject?
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It goes round in a circle again every time you confuse your opinion with fact.
We've heard, if you get paid to do something you are a professional, that's what you believe, as is your right..

There, and with no mention of IQ evaporation....the circle can end, can't it...;)
 
joxby said:
It goes round in a circle again every time you confuse your opinion with fact.
We've heard, if you get paid to do something you are a professional, that's what you believe, as is your right..
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the reason its going round in circles though is your insistence that its only daryls opinion

when its an opinion that both the olympic comittee , the FA, and the HMRC, and doubtless others share

this means that it actually is a fact that if you are getting paid you are a proffesional (regardless of what degree of profesionalism you display in your conduct)

you may believe that only those with a high degree of proffesionalism are proffesionals, but that is only your opinion, not actually a fact, or even a view shared by many established bodies
 
joxby said:
It goes round in a circle again every time you confuse your opinion with fact.
We've heard, if you get paid to do something you are a professional, that's what you believe, as is your right..

There, and with no mention of IQ evaporation....the circle can end, can't it...;)
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I hate to sound like a pedant - but there is an (albeit small) amount of intelligence required to grasp the difference between being a professional and being professional.

It's been said by many on this thread and the few that don't 'get it' are the people who seem to think that the question is complicated.:thinking:

You can be an amateur with a professional attitude, or a professional who behaves anything but 'professionally'. But that doesn't alter which one is 'a professional', that's the one who's getting paid:thumbs:.
Which is really simple:thumbs:

Like Pete said - the AAA, HMRC, Rugby Union vs Rugby League (until a few years ago) - never question commitment or ability - or attitude, simply whether or not you're getting paid.
 
I think the problem here is the unwillingness to accept anything but the dictionary definition of the word.

It may mean getting paid in return for providing a service.. but we all know there's so much more to it than that. Be as pedantic as you like.. but we just do.
 
John 'The Rhubarb triangle'. It's not my opinion. It's a fact. Phil, Pete the Moose, and others all say the same in various ways and still you and Phil from Cardiff won't except the definition.

Because a Pro tog does not act in a professional way or give a professional service has nothing to do with the FACT that he/she makes their sole income from photography ergo making them in the eyes of most people on Planet Earth ''A Professional Photographer''
 
I think everyone realises that's the definition of the word, but also realise that the word professional, dictionary definition aside, connotes something else as well: It connotes professionalism. So really.. who cares what the exact definition is. There are lots of words in the dictionary we don't use strictly as the dictionary says we should, which is why words change etymologically over time.

It's funny that no one feels to need to say "I'm a professional road sweeper" or a "Professional shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a professional surgeon" or a "Professional Airline Pilot".
 
Pookeyhead said:
I think everyone realises that's the definition of the word, but also realise that the word professional, dictionary definition aside, connotes something else as well: It connotes professionalism. So really.. who cares what the exact definition is. There are lots of words in the dictionary we don't use strictly as the dictionary says we should, which is why words change etymologically over time.

It's funny that no one feels to need to say "I'm a professional road sweeper" or a "Professional shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a professional surgeon" or a "Professional Airline Pilot".
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I'm not sure anybody feels the need to say 'I'm a professional photographer' any more either, as the words have become so diluted. But I'd say the reason photographers fell into using the term isn't a mystery.

I'm a musician
I'm an artist
I'm a photographer
I'm a golfer.

All of the above can be done quite seriously on an amateur basis or done professionally, so professionals felt the need to draw a line between themselves and amateurs.

I have friends who are musicians, friends who are semi professional musicians and friends who are or have been professional musicians. I'm fairly sure that they don't argue the toss about professional conduct, and they know from their bank account whether they're professional or not. If Keith Moon never earned any money from anything other than playing drums, some round here will get confused - because he could never be described as behaving in a professional manner:eek:.

And as far as 'connotations of professionalism' goes. It doesn't matter because that's not what the question was. The question is 'When are you a professional photographer'. We all know the answer - other than a few who can't tell the difference between a noun and a verb.:bang:
 
Pookeyhead said:
I think everyone realises that's the definition of the word, but also realise that the word professional, dictionary definition aside, connotes something else as well: It connotes professionalism. So really.. who cares what the exact definition is. There are lots of words in the dictionary we don't use strictly as the dictionary says we should, which is why words change etymologically over time.

It's funny that no one feels to need to say "I'm a professional road sweeper" or a "Professional shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a professional surgeon" or a "Professional Airline Pilot".
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I think the underlying problem here is that people don't generally practice road sweeping, shelf stacking, surgery and flying a commercial airplane as a hobby.

Photography is a passtime and artform and a profession.

What I want to understand is why do some people who practice photography as a hobby, maybe to an extremely high standard, want to describe themselves in a manor which suggests to another person that they do it as though it were their living? And why does this issue become such a major chip on the shoulder? It is not derogotory to the quality of your photography or your professional approach and attitude to say you are a hobbyist or amateur.

I can't enter some competitions because they state no professionals. It doesn't say you can't enter the competition if you're really good! It means if you earn your main living from photography (and often they state a percentage) you can't enter.

None of this is about how good a photographer anyone is, it is simply what you do as a job.

Matthew

Whatever the dictionary says, HMRC
 
thewtam said:
What I want to understand is why do some people who practice photography as a hobby, maybe to an extremely high standard, want to describe themselves in a manor which suggests to another person that they do it as though it were their living? And why does this issue become such a major chip on the shoulder?
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That's the one I can't answer I'm afraid. I have no idea. Personally, I think of myself as a photographer... sans prefix. That definition doesn't change with the proportion of my income that comes from it. I couldn't give a damn to be honest. :)
 
Daryl said:
John 'The Rhubarb triangle'. It's not my opinion. It's a fact. Phil, Pete the Moose, and others all say the same in various ways and still you and Phil from Cardiff won't except the definition.
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Oh hell, well why didn't you say so earlier, I mean if you Moose, Phil and Pete say it is what it is, I dunno why I even posted.....ffsake:bang:
I guess my application for membership to the brow beaters club will be turned down now..:(


The definition is open to interpretation, that means anyone can choose how they read it and decide what it means to them, regardless of how many internet hermits try to force their opinions as fact.
 
This thread as always goes round in circles and as always gets boring.

Because i and others must have read it WRONG. Hi I'm a part hobbist PROFESSIONAL!
Are you? That's great!!!!!

Whetehr you or I and other LIKE ot NOT LIKE IT.

The defininition has nothing to do with me others or YOU. It's what it is. BLACK AND WHITE.

Being a Professional and working in a 'Professional manner' are not the the same thing.

you could be the worst tog in the world but if it's sole income YOU ARE A PRO TOG

you could be a part timer with great service attention to detail and clients come back again again, WHY? Because you have a professional approach to the way you work and serve clients.

NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL. The 2 should go hand in hand but they don't alawys do that.

END of, God this thread is boring.

John are you a full time tog or a full Electrician? you maybe the tog ever....... Part time? Not a pro

If you are part time you are not a Pro. but the you do do you do in a professional manner
 
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I have two friends, both of whom are exceptionally good and meticulous gardeners. They truly have "green fingers".

Only one of them does it professionally, though. The other's retired.
 
Daryl said:
John 'The Rhubarb triangle'. It's not my opinion. It's a fact. Phil, Pete the Moose, and others all say the same in various ways and still you and Phil from Cardiff won't except the definition.

Because a Pro tog does not act in a professional way or give a professional service has nothing to do with the FACT that he/she makes their sole income from photography ergo making them in the eyes of most people on Planet Earth ''A Professional Photographer''
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Steady on Daryl, no need to get too excited. ;)

Being a Professional and working in a 'Professional manner' are not the the same thing.
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This i have never disagreed with, reading back through my posts i cant see where you could thinks that i said where there was only one definition? In fact quite the opposite:-

My take, professional can either mean you are paid to do it, or you do it to a high standard. Difference between 'a professional' and 'professional'.
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Take a breath! THis isn't DPrevew....
 
Pookeyhead said:
It's funny that no one feels to need to say "I'm a professional road sweeper" or a "Professional shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a professional surgeon" or a "Professional Airline Pilot".
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Easy answer .. there are not many amatuer "road sweeper" or a "shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a amatuer surgeon" or a "amatuer Airline Pilot"

Therefore there is no need to have to point out that unlike the rest. you are a business while they are a hobby..

PS If you do come accross any weekend amatuer surgeons please do let us know then we can steer clear :)
 
KIPAX said:
Easy answer .. there are not many amatuer "road sweeper" or a "shelf stacker", or in contrast "I'm a amatuer surgeon" or a "amatuer Airline Pilot"

Therefore there is no need to have to point out that unlike the rest. you are a business while they are a hobby..

PS If you do come accross any weekend amatuer surgeons please do let us know then we can steer clear :)
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Perhaps not in country's that have strict regulations on these things! Im pretty sure that certain parts of the world harbour all kind of have a go harrys including surgeons
 
When you're fed up with lugging a bag worth fifteen grand, and another bag with what feels like fifteen tonnes of light stands around the country.


Someone pass the gin...
 
Sorry, that sounds bitter. ****ing love my job. This coach journey has been in my life a bit too long already and just needs to finish up and go away.

Oh the glamour...
 
I would suggest that 90% + of professional photographers are also GOOD photographers.

There seems to be a current running through many such threads which suggests most professional photographers are actually rubbish. This "myth" is constantly perpetuated by wannabes who (for hundreds of reasons I'm sure) aren't professional photographers themselves.

Rather than pour scorn on those that are shooting for a living why not respect them (admire them even) and aspire to be them (if that's what you want).

Cheers
 
simple, if you make 90-100% of your wage as a working photographer, declare your earnings and get regular work, you are pro,

i earn 100% of mine as a press/sports photographer, so class me as pro, as does hmrc :)

also when you are having one day off the past three months, and have sent every day before, taking photos, currently having a day off finally, tho back out with the press work tonight. would look to see some of the so called wannabes doing real work regularly, rather than picking a and choosing what to photograph.

a sign of a real pro is when you can send them to anything! and they come back with great shots every time!


see far too many so called "pros" and amateurs trying to sell work to papers/agencies for silly money or for free, how about get a job doing it!!

could rant all day so ill stop there
 
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tom, you sound very conflicted and a smidge angry/bitter, if you don't mind me saying.

tamphotography said:
see far too many so called "pros" and amateurs trying to sell work to papers/agencies for silly money or for free, how about get a job doing it!!
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Not following. Isn't that what they're doing? Are your toes being trodden on by good amateurs or something? If their work's no good, they won't be able to sell it. If their work is good, they will, and they'll be pro, and they won't be the people you're complaining about, no?
 
DemiLion said:
Unfortunately that's exactly what it means, which is why, at least in my own view, the term 'professional photographer' has become somewhat tainted.

There are so many chancers about claiming to be 'professionals', that the whole concept is now meaningless and there is almost no chance of reclaiming the ground. I know Daryl's suggested an industry wide qualification in the past (and to a large extent I agree), but I just can't see it being practicable.

It's one OOF the reasons that I prefer to call myself a working photographer rather than a 'Pro'. Apart from which, I don't play golf or work in 'the oldest profession'!
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I would have to agree. Same can be said about Engineers. I consider myself a professional engineer, I've got a degree in Engineering and other relavant qualifcations and 16 year experience in my field, so I would class myself as an engineer, however this professional qualifcation has been made meaningless in this country, because every tom, dick and harry can class themselves as an engineer, i.e. refuse engineer (no bin man), pumping engineer, gas central heating engineer etc and same can be said of a professional photographer.
 
SimonH said:
tom, you sound very conflicted and a smidge angry/bitter, if you don't mind me saying.


Not following. Isn't that what they're doing? Are your toes being trodden on by good amateurs or something? If their work's no good, they won't be able to sell it. If their work is good, they will, and they'll be pro, and they won't be the people you're complaining about, no?
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thats my point, we get a large amount of people trying to sell poor work, aka waists time reading emails. its not a matter of just emailing saying i have a pic do you want to buy it, you need to be signed up, ftp it it etc etc picture editors don't have the time. bitter, yeah sometimes, not good, but believe me when its daily its annoying :lol:

get an nctj in press photography and learn!! hehe rant over :)
 
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tamphotography said:
get an nctj in press photography and learn!! hehe rant over :)
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Start crowing once you've taken your exams. Not before.
 
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