What happened to the second hand market?!

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The last time I sold lenses was three years ago, when I went full-frame. In those days, you could usually recoup a good percentage of your original cost, or even all of it, if you originally bought used. Now I'm considering reversing this move and going back to cropped-frame in order to reduce the size and weight of the gear I carry around.

I just had a quick look on eBay at the going rates for my lenses, and was horrified to see some used 24-70s going for £600, and 24-120 f/4s going for £400. That's about 50%.
The price of new gear seems to be going in the opposite direction too. My D300 cost £970 in 2008. The starting price of a D500 is £1700.

It's starting to look economically unviable to swap back. I thought I'd be able to finance this move without any extra cash, but now I'm not so sure. What have I missed in the last 3 years??
 
Yammer said:
The last time I sold lenses was three years ago, when I went full-frame. In those days, you could usually recoup a good percentage of your original cost, or even all of it, if you originally bought used. Now I'm considering reversing this move and going back to cropped-frame in order to reduce the size and weight of the gear I carry around.

I just had a quick look on eBay at the going rates for my lenses, and was horrified to see some used 24-70s going for £600, and 24-120 f/4s going for £400. That's about 50%.
The price of new gear seems to be going in the opposite direction too. My D300 cost £970 in 2008. The starting price of a D500 is £1700.

It's starting to look economically unviable to swap back. I thought I'd be able to finance this move without any extra cash, but now I'm not so sure. What have I missed in the last 3 years??
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Also, some of those lenses now have a V2, so the older ones were always going to drop in price.
 
And there have been a lot more sold compared to a few years ago when FF digital was still quite niche and a much smaller market.
 
I can understand newer models driving older ones down, but the 24-70 VR is £1650 (!!) and the old one £1200. £1650 is a big hike, and £1200 is still a bargain by comparison. I paid £1000 for mine in 2009, used. £600 is almost a giveaway. :sulk:
The 24-120 f/4 is current and I see you can now get them for £730. But £420 is still only 60% of current prices. :banghead:
The 16-35 f/4 is also current and still £800. They seem to have held their second hand price better at about 75%.
 
So, how has this affected trading in recent years? Do people hold onto their gear longer? Do people part-exchange more? Where do people sell their gear nowadays?
 
Yammer said:
So, how has this affected trading in recent years? Do people hold onto their gear longer? Do people part-exchange more? Where do people sell their gear nowadays?
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For me it means I am holding onto stuff I would have sold, if the resale value is low I am more inclined to throw it in the backup bag as a spare..
 
Grey market doesn't help.....the 24-120 f4 I got as a D750 kit from Panamoz worked out at around £370 extra on top of the body only price!! Currently, it is £373 extra and the 'old' 24-70 f2.8 is £893 extra as part of a kit!
 
I'd wait till easter. People have spent out over Christmas so the cash is short. That doesn't help.

P.S. I'd keep current lenses you've got as long as they provide the goodies.
 
Waiting is good advice. Actually, I just remembered that I went through something similar last time I tried to sell in January/February, and prices did pick up after a bit.

However, keeping the lenses goes against the whole point of the change. I'm trying to cut down on size and weight, and most of this will be the lenses. Much as I love the 24-70 f/2.8, I get a bit tired of carting that, the 16-35 f/4 (which looks like a 24-70 that's been in a hot wash) and a telephoto zoom around. Even the 24-120 f/4, which I bought as a walkaround lens, is a bit too heavy for carrying around all day.
 
Before the launch of the 24-70 vr the older version was the 28-70 which was proced around £500-£700 used that is likely why the drop in value on 24-70.

The 24-120 is available grey for not much more than £400 the used market was also effected heavily on this lens due to how many people purchased it in a kit with the D750 grey market with the sole intention of selling on the lens so they could get the body cheaper.
 
Good point. I didn't think about the 24-120 being a kit lens.
 
Actually, I suppose there's always the saying, 'if you can't beat them, join them'. I usually avoid unofficial imports. I was automatically omitting the China-based UK companies from my eBay searches. I assumed their prices were too good to be true, and some of their feedback was pretty awful, although, to be fair, still around 99%.
What's the accepted wisdom on grey imports these days, and has anyone got any advice?
 
Yammer said:
Actually, I suppose there's always the saying, 'if you can't beat them, join them'. I usually avoid unofficial imports. I was automatically omitting the China-based UK companies from my eBay searches. I assumed their prices were too good to be true, and some of their feedback was pretty awful, although, to be fair, still around 99%.
What's the accepted wisdom on grey imports these days, and has anyone got any advice?
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Why use Ebay? Just use a well known supplier. Plenty of discussions in shopping.
 
h.dew is u.k based has a super reputation and offers u.k based warranty which is often better than high street stores, import models at super prices with warranty
 
I simply only buy used, am careful from whom I buy and I look after my gear. If I'm buying a lens, I'm after one that will best do what I need it to do and not the latest flavour of the month. With so many people now trying DSLRs, many pop onto the forums like these, read the latest thread raving about the new VF AFS VR blah blah blah lens and promptly go off and buy it. They shoot 36 shots of the cat sitting by a coke can and a couple more of the baby and then stick it in a cupboard or sell it. The market is swamped with lenses compared to a few years ago. Many of the older lenses are now veritable bargains and for 95% of photographers will do more than they need.
 
Thanks for the advice. This might help when I come to buy new gear, but selling my old stuff is still looking grim, unless the situation improves in the next month or two. And I'm not going to be buying anything if I can can't finance the move.

I read some of the TP forum stuff on grey market sellers. The way I understand it, I'm saving money by not paying import duty and VAT, even with the 'good guys'? Sounds a bit illegal to me. Am I right in thinking the 'good guys' mentioned here don't pay the VAT/duty either, or are they different from the dodgy sellers?
 
I loved my D300, but it was a bit too low resolution for stock (especially after a crop), and noise performance wasn't great. I was waiting for a D400 back in 2011, and I waited for another two years before giving up and going full-frame. I had to sell three DX lenses as well as my camera. Last month, Nikon announced the D500, which exceeds everything I wanted 5 years ago. There's been nothing like it until now. I want one -- subject to trying one out in the flesh -- so I started looking into the money side of swapping back to DX.
I used the 16-85mm lens with my D300. It was a great lens, but not quite fast enough. I sold it when I went full-frame. I noticed last year that it too was upgraded with a f/2.8-4 'N' version with souped-up VR. I can't tell you how frustrating this all is.
 
Stay Full Frame and get a D750, that'll shave a couple of hundred grams off and keep the FX lenses.
 
I wouldn't order the D500 quite yet! Never be an early adopter of new gear for two reasons:

Often there are problems that get resolved after a recall or two for the initial buyers (D750 for example). Also the prices tend to come down after 6-12 months as there is an early adopter premium as manufacturers try to wring out all the profit they can out of those who are keenest to get their hands on kit.
 
Yammer said:
Thanks for the advice. This might help when I come to buy new gear, but selling my old stuff is still looking grim, unless the situation improves in the next month or two. And I'm not going to be buying anything if I can can't finance the move.

I read some of the TP forum stuff on grey market sellers. The way I understand it, I'm saving money by not paying import duty and VAT, even with the 'good guys'? Sounds a bit illegal to me. Am I right in thinking the 'good guys' mentioned here don't pay the VAT/duty either, or are they different from the dodgy sellers?
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Can be a bit of a touchy subject on TP, bit of info here https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/t...rey-imports-and-other-assorted-topics.512133/
 
You have to remember to the value of the pound dropped considerable from the high of 2007 / 08. Net result everything now costs more, it used to be $1 = 50p vs 70p (roughly) so a $1500 body that cost £750 in 2008 would now cost £1050 and as everything is generally priced in dollars globally everything took a hit.
 
Yammer said:
I can understand newer models driving older ones down, but the 24-70 VR is £1650 (!!) and the old one £1200. £1650 is a big hike, and £1200 is still a bargain by comparison. I paid £1000 for mine in 2009, used. £600 is almost a giveaway. :sulk:
The 24-120 f/4 is current and I see you can now get them for £730. But £420 is still only 60% of current prices. :banghead:
The 16-35 f/4 is also current and still £800. They seem to have held their second hand price better at about 75%.
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24-120mm is only £445 new from HDEW, and I'd rather buy a shiny new grey lens with 12M warranty than a similar priced used one from someone that I don't know, and with no warranty.
 
Looks like I'm going to have to stay full-frame. I can't justify losing all that money to replace my lenses with smaller lighter ones. And I'd calculated that I could make my camera bag 2lb lighter.

I suppose I could buy a second body and a couple of DX lenses, and keep most of my full-frame gear. How much do the prices fall in 6 months these days? It used to be quite a lot, but I seem to be out of the loop nowadays.

Not sure I'm comfortable with grey imports. I already read the link above and I'm not much wiser about the companies mentioned here. I'm a massive pain in the ar*e about tax evasion, so I'd be a bit of a di*k if I followed suit.
 
you need to calculate the weight savings, and slower / range limited lens are often lighter, so u could stay ff but go with variable apature lenses
 
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Someone hasn't stated the obvious yet..,.

In the old, old days of film the interval between new models (lens or camera) was a couple of years and the updates were minor tweaks, and as a result photographers were less inclined to renew their gear.. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying the developments were mostly in film technology (and metering plus AF). Not everyone had a SLR either, as far as I could recall it was a major purchase and you could get a D3300 or EOS 1200D now from not much more than the basic camera of 30 years ago. Also, people kept their cameras until a) they had more disposable money b) the old camera broke c) eyesight went and needed AF. Basically, the market wasn't saturated. I remember my Dad getting a good trade in for his Chinon CE4 versus a new camcorder.

Now, with CNOPS introducing a new camera (or lens) according to whichever exhibition or trade show, a new model last year is suddenly passe this year. Their improved affordability also means they are much more disposable, or noone is bother if a £1000 camera is just sitting idly. So when I decide to sell one of my bodies I am competing with a lot of other sellers. If you have something scarce then it keeps its value better,e.g. a Sigma lens the 150-500 in PK fit seems to get better prices because fewer were sold in that fit, likewise the highly regarded EX100-300 f4.

For lenses I think the downward spiral in prices for a lot of lenses is due in part, as has been mentioned, to the fact that cameras are sold in kits, kits usually offer better value for the purchaser who will end up with 2 similar optics, the older or the unwanted will come for sale in a buyer's market.

So, the oversupply of items for sale and the fact that manufacturers have shortened life-cycles, in today's must have the latest equipment society, have conspired to drive prices downwards, good for the buyer and not so good for the seller. I'm just trying to weigh up whether there is any point p/exing my D3 for a D810, even with the latest offer, for a camera that cost £3k new, the prices used are low... :(

An early adopter of the D500 will have to gamble, either shortened supply by Nikon will keep prices buoyant for a while, after which prices will drop as soon supply outstrips demand (then it will be less than 2/3 of the current MRSP)
 
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You've been a bit unlucky with those lenses. One being a kit lens and the other being superseded. The real depreciation normally happens with the bodies. You might find in 6-12 months that the price of D500s has crashed as everyone remembers Nikon have naff all by way of wide primes on DX and move on to other systems.

p.s. I noticed on lenstip.com that the new 16-80 was pretty disappointing for the price. Might want to look before you leap anyway.
 
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pingu666 said:
you need to calculate the weight savings, and slower / range limited lens are often lighter, so u could stay ff but go with variable apature lenses
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I already tried a cheap used 24-85mm VR f/3.5-4.5, which works okay but isn't really fully utilising the camera. I guess I could swap the 16-35mm for a 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5 to match. It's quite bit lighter too.
It all seems a bit mad though, putting cheap lenses on a D800.
 
twist said:
More grey imports driving UK used value down.
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snerkler said:
24-120mm is only £445 new from HDEW, and I'd rather buy a shiny new grey lens with 12M warranty than a similar priced used one from someone that I don't know, and with no warranty.
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I think grey prices is the main reason for the price drops. New camera releases have more of an impact than lens releases. New Nikon lens UK release price has been much higher than the previous model so it's had less impact on the used price of the previous model.

We now have new UK price and new Grey price so second hand prices have to drop below the lowest of these prices. This enviably means second hand prices have dropped like a stone. The grey kit deals didnt help much. I remember the grey 24-120 f4 kit offer rapidly dropping used prices as buyers of d750 bought as kits to off loaded the kit lens straight away to reduce the price of the camera purchase. Some sellers where trying to sell them for £150 more than they paid for them, canny buyers soon noticed this and stopped buying at the higher price. I remember seeing a few sellers commenting 'these were flying off the classifieds a few weeks back so why is it not selling?'.

Also used placed like MPB, WEX etc have had to drop their used prices to keep competitive with the grey importers. That's had a knock on effect on second hand private sales.

If you can don't sell up and keep what you have as it's likely to be better than changing.
 
rob-nikon said:
I think grey prices is the main reason for the price drops. New camera releases have more of an impact than lens releases. New Nikon lens UK release price has been much higher than the previous model so it's had less impact on the used price of the previous model.

We now have new UK price and new Grey price so second hand prices have to drop below the lowest of these prices. This enviably means second hand prices have dropped like a stone. The grey kit deals didnt help much. I remember the grey 24-120 f4 kit offer rapidly dropping used prices as buyers of d750 bought as kits to off loaded the kit lens straight away to reduce the price of the camera purchase. Some sellers where trying to sell them for £150 more than they paid for them, canny buyers soon noticed this and stopped buying at the higher price. I remember seeing a few sellers commenting 'these were flying off the classifieds a few weeks back so why is it not selling?'.

Also used placed like MPB, WEX etc have had to drop their used prices to keep competitive with the grey importers. That's had a knock on effect on second hand private sales.

If you can don't sell up and keep what you have as it's likely to be better than changing.
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Yup. It's definitely the grey market. Makes even less sense for nikon and canon to keep increasing their prices in the UK. Foot meet bullet.
 
Another point driving down price would be supply. Lens last indefinitely and so you would expect the supply of second hand lens to increase each year but the market is fragmenting with consumers attracted by much improved DSLR alternatives like mirrorless cameras. So increasing supply and decreasing demand.
 
The only thing to do if you want to change systems is to take a hit. Digital cameras and lenses will always cost you money now. The days of buying a used lens and selling it a few years later for what you paid are pretty much gone. The only way to live back in that world is to use the much older ais lenses and some of the af-d ones. Lenses from that period can be purchased relatively cheaply and sold at little or no loss at a later date. Otherwise, photography as a hobby has become more expensive. Funny how cheaper grey market stuff has ultimately helped to do that, though I make no comment either way on that; just an observation.
 
Yammer said:
I already tried a cheap used 24-85mm VR f/3.5-4.5, which works okay but isn't really fully utilising the camera. I guess I could swap the 16-35mm for a 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5 to match. It's quite bit lighter too.
It all seems a bit mad though, putting cheap lenses on a D800.
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They may be cheap but they are extremely good lenses, the 18-35mm is actually sharper than the more expensive 16-35mm f4.
 
I'd keep the D800, ditch the zooms and get the 35mm and 85mm 1.8G lenses. Lightweight, fast, still plenty of versatility. I tend to think that primes hold their value better as well; less to go wrong or wear out.
 
The Pound has dropped again on the news of the EU referendum. Prices today will seem cheap soon.
and who knows where they will end up if we leave the EU.

The fact we can buy from anywhere in the EU helps to keep our prices more competitive.
This is probably as good a time as any to buy ... but not to sell yet.
 
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